619 réponses à ce sujet

[Hunter of Legends]

Farbautisonn wrote...


Sorry. Ive studied history and warfare too long to be taken in by that.

I do too, and we never argued their value.

They are a resource that would have been used in the war. Fact.

Shepard denied them that resource. Fact.

[Farbautisonn]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

I do too, and we never argued their value.

They are a resource that would have been used in the war. Fact.

Shepard denied them that resource. Fact.

-Erm. You studied warfare and history and you still havent learned that things are not facts just because you say so? Thats grand. Where do you get your knowledge of warfare and history? 

Comparing the collectors to the reapers is like comparing an anthill of slumbering ants to the combined armed forces of russia. The collectors only job is collecting humans for experiments. The end. They are labrats.

[Hunter of Legends]

Farbautisonn wrote...


Comparing the collectors to the reapers

WHERE HAVE I SAID THIS?


You need to learn some simple deffinitions before coming to the table.

[Farbautisonn]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

WHERE HAVE I SAID THIS?


You need to learn some simple deffinitions before coming to the table.

-You didnt. I did. You might want to learn to read and keep the narrative of the discussion intact.

The Collecters are a trivial enemy. They have no purpose except to give us an angle and an insight into reaper tech. Thats their purpose. Their abduction of human colonies? Not important. If it had been batarian slavers Shepard wouldt have cared. But the collectors turn out to be using reaper tech to build a human reaper. Thats pretty significant. Thats information and tech that shepard needs to get or at the very least undestand. The information you get onboard the collector ship is also important. You get money for investigating it and salvegeing it... remember? You dont get a dime for saving the crew or colonists because they arent important to the plot. They are the icing on the cake. Not the cake.

Modifié par Farbautisonn, 24 février 2012 - 12:40 .

[Hunter of Legends]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

WHERE HAVE I SAID THIS?


You need to learn some simple deffinitions before coming to the table.

-You didnt. I did. You might want to learn to read and keep the narrative of the discussion intact.

The Collecters are a trivial enemy. They have no purpose except to give us an angle and an insight into reaper tech. Thats their purpose. Their abduction of human colonies? Not important. If it had been batarian slavers Shepard wouldt have cared. But the collectors turn out to be using reaper tech to build a human reaper. Thats pretty significant. Thats information and tech that shepard needs to get or at the very least undestand. The information you get onboard the collector ship is also important. You get money for investigating it and salvegeing it... remember? You dont get a dime for saving the crew or colonists because they arent important to the plot. They are the icing on the cake. Not the cake.

My whole argument was that they are a resource that the Repears would use in their war; you keep bringing this "value" system into play.

I don't care their value, they were simply a resource we denied the reapers.

Jesus.

[Farbautisonn]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

My whole argument was that they are a resource that the Repears would use in their war; you keep bringing this "value" system into play.

I don't care their value, they were simply a resource we denied the reapers.

Jesus.

Right. So we send in a team of  SAS to steal a glass of water from Hitler. That will show him.

[Hunter of Legends]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

My whole argument was that they are a resource that the Repears would use in their war; you keep bringing this "value" system into play.

I don't care their value, they were simply a resource we denied the reapers.

Jesus.

Right. So we send in a team of  SAS to steal a glass of water from Hitler. That will show him.

Who knows? That glass of water might cause something down the line.

Besides arguing your hilariously bad use of hyperbole the collectors would have given Shepard and Co an extra uneeded headache to deal with.

Do me a favor...don't become a military commander.

[Malanek]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

WHERE HAVE I SAID THIS?


You need to learn some simple deffinitions before coming to the table.

-You didnt. I did. You might want to learn to read and keep the narrative of the discussion intact.

The Collecters are a trivial enemy. They have no purpose except to give us an angle and an insight into reaper tech. Thats their purpose. Their abduction of human colonies? Not important. If it had been batarian slavers Shepard wouldt have cared. But the collectors turn out to be using reaper tech to build a human reaper. Thats pretty significant. Thats information and tech that shepard needs to get or at the very least undestand. The information you get onboard the collector ship is also important. You get money for investigating it and salvegeing it... remember? You dont get a dime for saving the crew or colonists because they arent important to the plot. They are the icing on the cake. Not the cake.

The collectors were the reapers eyes and ears in the galaxy. We don't really know how important they would be once the reapers get here and whether they have other agents. We don't know whether they could have emerged from the omega-5 created havoc. And shepard still learned a fair bit of new technology plus evidence to unite the galaxy even if the base was destroyed. Plus the reapers will now be forced to spend time harvesting humans assuming they still want a human reaper. Destroying the base did not mean you accomplished nothing in ME2.

However in spite of saying all that, if this was real life there is no way in hell I would throwing away that technology. Doing so is more crazy than noble.

Edit - we don't really know how many ground troops the reapers have either. Losing all those collectors and husks could be a significant chunk of their forces. It's entirely possible that in going into slumber for thousands of years they do not have the energy to sustain the lives of troops and since they don't have a huge amount of use for them its highly likely that sheer numbers could be a significant weakness.

Modifié par Malanek999, 24 février 2012 - 01:32 .

[Dean_the_Young]

DJBare wrote...

Where are the badasses willing to sacrifice their family and friends to cerburus in order to save the galaxy?

Doctor Archer, you forget?

I attempt to steer clear of these moral debates, but the one thing that always seems outstanding is the lack of thought and empathy from the so called badasses.

I haven't been in this debate, so that much can't be aimed at me, and I take no offense.

But there certainly is something to be said about creating an institution that can do to us and our loved ones what we ourselves might not want to do personally.

Like, say, the entire justice system. Or collective defense in the form of a draft. Or even a greater-good scenario in which we or those we love are not in the 'greater'.



Empathy is not a weakness, but it isn't a solitary foundation either. Not everyone can, or should, do unto their own as they would do onto others... but they can still recognize the propriety of a third party to do so.

The crux of an impartial party isn't someone who treats everyone like their own family: it's someone who treats no one like family.

[Hunter of Legends]

Dean_the_Young wrote...


The crux of an impartial party isn't someone who treats everyone like their own family: it's someone who treats no one like family.

They also need to keep themselves out of the equation.

Exactly why the Illusive Man isn't that solution.

[Farbautisonn]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Who knows? That glass of water might cause something down the line.

Besides arguing your hilariously bad use of hyperbole the collectors would have given Shepard and Co an extra uneeded headache to deal with.

Do me a favor...don't become a military commander.

Never made it past your equvalent as PFC when I did national service as a Light infantryman. Dont worry. I dont like the heavy lifing anyway. I liked my analyst job alot better before I went private sector.

[Farbautisonn]

Malanek999 wrote... And shepard still learned a fair bit of new technology plus evidence to unite the galaxy even if the base was destroyed. Plus the reapers will now be forced to spend time harvesting humans assuming they still want a human reaper. Destroying the base did not mean you accomplished nothing in ME2.

However in spite of saying all that, if this was real life there is no way in hell I would throwing away that technology. Doing so is more crazy than noble.

-Thanks. This has been my point all along. The tech was the juice. The human reaper? Makes for a nice "boss" in the end but isnt really critical to the plot... by a longshot. Just shows what the Collectors were up to and gives us an inkling as to why the reapers do what they do. The tech employed however, and the tech and intelligence you pick up along the way? Thats the critical part. Thats what you need. Thats what you are there for. Not to kill the collectors. Not to destroy an embryonic reaper. Not to destroy the collector base.

[Dean_the_Young]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...


The crux of an impartial party isn't someone who treats everyone like their own family: it's someone who treats no one like family.

They also need to keep themselves out of the equation.

Exactly why the Illusive Man isn't that solution.

Not really, since any decision maker is always going to have the element of 'themselves', no matter what system you have. Democratic, autocratic: the only sort of system in which the decision maker doesn't suffer personal bias is when the decision maker is a random number generator, and they make for poor policy over time.

You might as well argue that we (in modern day Earth) should keep the Human element out of decision making. It sounds nice, but it's de facto impossible.

[Nohvarr]

Cerberus keeps doing things that kill their credability with me, both in game and in the comics/books. That said I am not against a pro-human goal or even bothered by taking calculated chances. Cerberus just isn't the group I'd trust odo that.

[Hunter of Legends]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Who knows? That glass of water might cause something down the line.

Besides arguing your hilariously bad use of hyperbole the collectors would have given Shepard and Co an extra uneeded headache to deal with.

Do me a favor...don't become a military commander.

Never made it past your equvalent as PFC when I did national service as a Light infantryman. Dont worry. I dont like the heavy lifing anyway. I liked my analyst job alot better before I went private sector.

I can tell.

[Farbautisonn]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

I can tell.

-I suppose youre a sandhurst graduee? 

[Hunter of Legends]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...


The crux of an impartial party isn't someone who treats everyone like their own family: it's someone who treats no one like family.

They also need to keep themselves out of the equation.

Exactly why the Illusive Man isn't that solution.

Not really, since any decision maker is always going to have the element of 'themselves', no matter what system you have. Democratic, autocratic: the only sort of system in which the decision maker doesn't suffer personal bias is when the decision maker is a random number generator, and they make for poor policy over time.

You might as well argue that we (in modern day Earth) should keep the Human element out of decision making. It sounds nice, but it's de facto impossible.

My point is the illusive man is to power hungry to be the one making these decisions.

Someone with that authority/level of outside the law shouldn't be making choice based on personal betterment.

[Hunter of Legends]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

I can tell.

-I suppose youre a sandhurst graduee? 

No, but ignoring the fact that the Collectors are a resrsouce and then comparing them to a glass of water is laughable at best.

A soldier like yourself should understand ONE less tank to fight is a good thing.

[Farbautisonn]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

No, but ignoring the fact that the Collectors are a resrsouce and then comparing them to a glass of water is laughable at best.

A soldier like yourself should understand ONE less tank to fight is a good thing.

-One tank. Yep. But you dont send in DEVGRU to take out one tank. Its overkill, waste of tactical resources etc. You do however send in DEVGRU to secure vital information, tech, aquire key personell, or outright destroy vital enemy individuals.

As far as I know N7 is the equivalent of DEVGRU/Seal team six. Thats about as elite and as specialized as you can possibly get. You send in the marines, possibly the rangers to take out a "tank" at a strategical location. Not "six".

If you have the level of knowledge you claim you do, surely you must... must be able to conceed that.

[Hunter of Legends]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

No, but ignoring the fact that the Collectors are a resrsouce and then comparing them to a glass of water is laughable at best.

A soldier like yourself should understand ONE less tank to fight is a good thing.

-One tank. Yep. But you dont send in DEVGRU to take out one tank. Its overkill, waste of tactical resources etc. You do however send in DEVGRU to secure vital information, tech, aquire key personell, or outright destroy vital enemy individuals.

As far as I know N7 is the equivalent of DEVGRU/Seal team six. Thats about as elite and as specialized as you can possibly get. You send in the marines, possibly the rangers to take out a "tank" at a strategical location. Not "six".

If you have the level of knowledge you claim you do, surely you must... must be able to conceed that.

But now you're arguing something I never even argued in the first place!!

You asked what was the point of ME2...i asnwered.

You asked if that has an effect...I answered.

You started throwing "value" and "don't throw Delta Force" at a tank when I never even talked about that. To be quit honest N7 for this specific mission if perfect for the job. The collectors are hardly one tank, I was merely making apoint.

You treated the collectors as if they wouldn't hassle the Galactice alliance but they would.

Modifié par Hunter of Legends, 24 février 2012 - 02:47 .

[eskr]

The Collectors were tools of the Reapers used, in this case, to collect genetic material to build a new Reaper.
The 'point' of the galactic cycles is to allow life to evolve, that is go through a process of random mutation and selection, allowing the Reapers to then harvest the results as a means of bettering their own race. Most likely taking promising races and turning them into immortal Reaper-ship-states (hence the "salvation through your destruction"). This is similar to the functioning of contemprary genetic algorithms that find solutions to complex problems by a proces of random number generation and 'breeding' of those solutions, with bias towards the better answers.

The reapers need the collectors most likely because a single Reaper can only do so much and they do not operate on time scales necessary for such tasks (They sleep for like 50,000 years at a time).

So the collectors are important, however it is unlikely that they provide a significant military advantage.
As best I an see it, the achievements of ME2 are mostly superfluous in the scheme of the larger Reaper war (as the collectors weren't about to attack major human outposts, a single ship with a crack team took them out). The ONLY way taking out the Collectors could reasonably benefit the Reaper war is if you at least took their sophisticated technology. (Maybe not Reaper sophisticated, but better than human.)

Why you had to give it to Cerberus I have no idea. (You could have just told the Council or Alliance - there are problems getting into Terminus space sure, but Cerberus obviously surmounted those).

So, while I don't like Cerberus per se, in the context, preserving the station was the only wise decision. It gave some hope of uncovering useful info to aid in the war against the Reapers, a war stacked greatly against the extant galaxy.

Modifié par eskr, 24 février 2012 - 02:51 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...


The crux of an impartial party isn't someone who treats everyone like their own family: it's someone who treats no one like family.

They also need to keep themselves out of the equation.

Exactly why the Illusive Man isn't that solution.

Not really, since any decision maker is always going to have the element of 'themselves', no matter what system you have. Democratic, autocratic: the only sort of system in which the decision maker doesn't suffer personal bias is when the decision maker is a random number generator, and they make for poor policy over time.

You might as well argue that we (in modern day Earth) should keep the Human element out of decision making. It sounds nice, but it's de facto impossible.

My point is the illusive man is to power hungry to be the one making these decisions.

Then your point is entirely irrelevant to mine.

Someone with that authority/level of outside the law shouldn't be making choice based on personal betterment.

And by and large, he isn't. The Illusive Man is hardly a demonstrative case of personal greed, corruption, ego, or narcisism. The man doesn't live a public life in any fashion, doesn't seek fame or glory,

About the most he personally gains from leading Cerberus is a limitless supply of smokes and strong drinks. Which is so far down the ple of 'personal betterment' as to be irrelevant at the scale of power we're talking about.

[Dean_the_Young]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Farbautisonn wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

I can tell.

-I suppose youre a sandhurst graduee? 

No, but ignoring the fact that the Collectors are a resrsouce and then comparing them to a glass of water is laughable at best.

Very true. Water is a necessary substance for survival as a Human: the Collectors are in no way necessary for the Reaper victory or survival.

A soldier like yourself should understand ONE less tank to fight is a good thing.

When the war is a naval war, the tanks can be utterly irrelevant.

[Aimi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

About the most he personally gains from leading Cerberus is a limitless supply of smokes and strong drinks. Which is so far down the ple of 'personal betterment' as to be irrelevant at the scale of power we're talking about.

Well, and copious amounts of sex. 

[Hunter of Legends]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The Illusive Man is hardly a demonstrative case of personal greed, corruption, ego, or narcisism. The man doesn't live a public life in any fashion, doesn't seek fame or glory,

The Shadow Broker files suggests otherwise.