619 réponses à ce sujet

[Davidicus]

Hey, Cerberus is really hit or miss. They put humanity first, and that's not a bad thing. Their methods are simply more extreme than the Alliance's. Do they produce results? Yep. Does the Alliance produce results? Sometimes, but usually too late to do any good. The Illusive Man put it well: "Diplomacy is great when it works, but difficult when everyone already perceives you as a threat." I will be as diplomatic as possible in my ME2 playthrough, but we'll see how things go.

I also support the Imperium of Man in Warhammer 40k, whose creed is to slaughter the alien. They're justified, however, beceause in 40k, every alien is inherently hostile in one way or another. I still see people complaining that the Imperium is intolerant, though .

Modifié par Davidicus, 24 février 2012 - 03:40 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The Illusive Man is hardly a demonstrative case of personal greed, corruption, ego, or narcisism. The man doesn't live a public life in any fashion, doesn't seek fame or glory,

The Shadow Broker files suggests otherwise.

The sex?

Unless you're suggesting TIM is an exhibitionist, or abducting the women in question, that's not exactly a case for gross abuse of power and position.

Or a disqualifier from any sort of position of power. (Cough JFK Cough MLKCough).

[Dean_the_Young]

daqs wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

About the most he personally gains from leading Cerberus is a limitless supply of smokes and strong drinks. Which is so far down the ple of 'personal betterment' as to be irrelevant at the scale of power we're talking about.

Well, and copious amounts of sex. 

Clearly he gets that from his own charm, not from the position.

[Hunter of Legends]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The Illusive Man is hardly a demonstrative case of personal greed, corruption, ego, or narcisism. The man doesn't live a public life in any fashion, doesn't seek fame or glory,

The Shadow Broker files suggests otherwise.

The sex?

Unless you're suggesting TIM is an exhibitionist, or abducting the women in question, that's not exactly a case for gross abuse of power and position.

Or a disqualifier from any sort of position of power. (Cough JFK Cough MLKCough).

No, but it helps paint the picture of someone who is not worth trust or "hero".

(The shadow broker files and other info, not the sleeping with women part)

Modifié par Hunter of Legends, 24 février 2012 - 04:12 .

[IllusiveMike]

Heh, Shepard is super evil too with his/her potential ME1 interest, Kelly, ME2 interest, and likely ME3 option.

[Dean_the_Young]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The Illusive Man is hardly a demonstrative case of personal greed, corruption, ego, or narcisism. The man doesn't live a public life in any fashion, doesn't seek fame or glory,

The Shadow Broker files suggests otherwise.

The sex?

Unless you're suggesting TIM is an exhibitionist, or abducting the women in question, that's not exactly a case for gross abuse of power and position.

Or a disqualifier from any sort of position of power. (Cough JFK Cough MLKCough).

No, but it helps paint the picture of someone who is not worth trust or "hero".

(The shadow broker files and other info, not the sleeping with women part)

The Shadow Broker files on TIM suggest that he...

Likes luxury goods.
Likes women.
Is very good at a game called Skyball.
Has contacts across the galaxy.

And that's about it.

None of these are particularly condemnable or discrediting. None of them fit your claim of a selfish, personally ambitious man who seeks power for his own sake. In fact, nothing in here paints TIM personally as untrustworthy or non-heroic. Cerberus, certainly, but TIM is largely ignored. And frankly, if your standard for leadership of an organization is 'heroism', you're barking up the wrong tree by far.



If you're looking for TIM's flaws as a leader in terms of personal greed or ambition, the Broker files isn't the place to go. Unfortunately for you, most the other places aren't either. TIM is many things, but he's also NOT many things, among them an exceptionally self-centered person.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 24 février 2012 - 04:27 .

[Hunter of Legends]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

No, but it helps paint the picture of someone who is not worth trust or "hero".

(The shadow broker files and other info, not the sleeping with women part)

Indeed. Sex is an evil act performed by evil people.

Did you see the "not the sleeping with women part"

or are you just this idiotic?

[Hunter of Legends]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
 but he's also NOT many things, among them an exceptionally self-centered person.

His stance at the end of ME2 suggests otherwise.

Too many "I's and Me's"

He may not be self-centered but I feel that may just be a plot like Mengsk.


A good leader also isn't afraid to get his/her own hands dirty. That's what I meant by "hero". TIM is too penicl pusher for me.

Modifié par Hunter of Legends, 24 février 2012 - 04:34 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
 but he's also NOT many things, among them an exceptionally self-centered person.

His stance at the end of ME2 suggests otherwise.

Too many "I's and Me's"

Not really. TIM's primary topic about the Base is its benefit (or lack of it) to the collective that is Humanity. The only time the topic turns towards TIM is when Shepard directs it to.

He may not be self-centered but I feel that may just be a plot like Mengsk.

He might be a Sith Lord who shoots lightning out of his fingers. Like another totally unrelated sci-fi series.

Either back up a claim with concrete support within the franchise, or drop it.

[Dean_the_Young]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

A good leader also isn't afraid to get his/her own hands dirty. That's what I meant by "hero". TIM is too penicl pusher for me.

A good leader also knows when cliches are cliches and when to stay out of the roles of the experts. Stay in your lane, and when everyone does what they're best at you have a better team.

Now, TIM once was a mercenary. He's certainly done the work in the past. But TIM's exceeptional abilities are in his organizational abilities that turned a minor paramilitary group in a top-tier galaxy-spanning cabal that overthrew a centuries-established intelligence syndicate in a matter of decades... not as a fighter. Going pew-pew doesn't make him better as a leader.

TIM is the only person capable of running the Cerberus Network at its current scale and scope. He is an exceptional 'pencil pusher'. He is not an exceptional fighter. Demanding he should be to be a 'her' is pretty darn stupid.

Actually, expecting any top-level supervisor to be involved at the lowest levels is pretty darn silly. Every Marine may be a rifleman, but a General who tries to be the one kicking down doors is in the wrong place for the wrong reasons.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 24 février 2012 - 04:47 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

No, but it helps paint the picture of someone who is not worth trust or "hero".

(The shadow broker files and other info, not the sleeping with women part)

Indeed. Sex is an evil act performed by evil people.

Did you see the "not the sleeping with women part"

or are you just this idiotic?

He's mocking you because you're argument has been sliding, since the only thing that can actually be cast as a vice of the Illusive Man's in the Shadow Broker files is his sleeping arrangements.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 24 février 2012 - 04:48 .

[Hunter of Legends]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
 but he's also NOT many things, among them an exceptionally self-centered person.

His stance at the end of ME2 suggests otherwise.

Too many "I's and Me's"

Not really. TIM's primary topic about the Base is its benefit (or lack of it) to the collective that is Humanity. The only time the topic turns towards TIM is when Shepard directs it to.

He may not be self-centered but I feel that may just be a plot like Mengsk.

He might be a Sith Lord who shoots lightning out of his fingers. Like another totally unrelated sci-fi series.

Either back up a claim with concrete support within the franchise, or drop it.

I did.

His breakdown at the end is clearly a villinous one. Hence why he keeps saying "I brought you back" instead of Cerberus.

I will be proven right in ME3.

[General User]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

No, but it helps paint the picture of someone who is not worth trust or "hero".

(The shadow broker files and other info, not the sleeping with women part)

Indeed. Sex is an evil act performed by evil people.

Did you see the "not the sleeping with women part"

or are you just this idiotic?

Smoking is an evil act performed by evil people? 
(It is, but only in bad fiction.  Take that how you will)

Modifié par General User, 24 février 2012 - 04:50 .

[Hunter of Legends]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

No, but it helps paint the picture of someone who is not worth trust or "hero".

(The shadow broker files and other info, not the sleeping with women part)

Indeed. Sex is an evil act performed by evil people.

Did you see the "not the sleeping with women part"

or are you just this idiotic?

He's mocking you because you're argument has been sliding, since the only thing that can actually be cast as a vice of the Illusive Man's in the Shadow Broker files is his sleeping arrangements.

That might work


if I hadn't included the "not sleeping with women" part.

[Hunter of Legends]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Actually, expecting any top-level supervisor to be involved at the lowest levels is pretty darn silly. Every Marine may be a rifleman, but a General who tries to be the one kicking down doors is in the wrong place for the wrong reasons.

I got that vibe from him of "bad leader".

They didn't cast Sheen because he looks good. His acting betrayed the characters true role.

Modifié par Hunter of Legends, 24 février 2012 - 04:52 .

[Megaton_Hope]

What bugs me about Cerberus is that their goal is to create supersoldiers, so they...

Take regular soldiers, and inject them with Thresher Maw acid? Try to tame Rachni? Take components of an alien life form that can reproduce through spores and control human minds off a planet it's mercifully exiled to? Torture biotic children for no readily apparent reason?

I mean, we're living in a world where cybernetic implants and genetic engineering are highly advanced. Humans have made contact with a telepathic species that are powerful biotics and live thousands of years. And a species that will get up after you've shot it in the face with an assault rifle or a high explosive. And many of the items in the first game involve Virtual Intelligences regulating force fields or targeting for you. And in the second game, high technology can make you invisible.

So why is it that all Cerberus can think of is petty sadism? With the technology available, creating superior soldiers should be a cakewalk. The tricky part is training them to behave.

[Spanky Magoo]

Megaton_Hope wrote...

What bugs me about Cerberus is that their goal is to create supersoldiers, so they...

Take regular soldiers, and inject them with Thresher Maw acid? Try to tame Rachni? Take components of an alien life form that can reproduce through spores and control human minds off a planet it's mercifully exiled to? Torture biotic children for no readily apparent reason?

I mean, we're living in a world where cybernetic implants and genetic engineering are highly advanced. Humans have made contact with a telepathic species that are powerful biotics and live thousands of years. And a species that will get up after you've shot it in the face with an assault rifle or a high explosive. And many of the items in the first game involve Virtual Intelligences regulating force fields or targeting for you. And in the second game, high technology can make you invisible.

So why is it that all Cerberus can think of is petty sadism? With the technology available, creating superior soldiers should be a cakewalk. The tricky part is training them to behave.

It might be more cost effective to try and induce a forced beneficial mutation in a platoon of grunts rather than spend at ton of money stuffing them with tech.

Yes it hasnt turned out well so far, lol but... They couldnt have Cerberus actually succede at anything but rebuilding shepard otherwise how could bioware write them off in ME3. 

[Hunter of Legends]

My whole issue with TIM is that he isn't trustworthy.

[Aimi]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

My whole issue with TIM is that he isn't trustworthy.

He is completely unremarkable in that regard.

[Davidicus]

Megaton_Hope wrote...

So why is it that all Cerberus can think of is petty sadism? With the technology available, creating superior soldiers should be a cakewalk. The tricky part is training them to behave.

Yes, the tricky part is training them to behave, but you sort of contradict yourself. You accuse Cerberus of trying "sadistic" methods to produce super-soldiers, if that is even their true goal, but then you go listing all of this tech and the abilities of major alien races, trying to say that both of these things can create "super soldiers." Well, yeah, you're right! All of that tech is also readily available to the rest of the galaxy, effectively making everyone a super soldier (by today's standards). So what is Cerberus trying to create? A super-super-soldier. It's been established that the only way to do that in sci-fi is to perform crazy experiments which are usually extremely risky, yet offer little to no results.

Edit: Also, saying TIM is untrustworthy is like saying the Reapers like to kill things.

Modifié par Davidicus, 24 février 2012 - 05:18 .

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Most of evil bastards Shepards are unfaithful to their first LI. You're worse than Cerberus! (Hetero-s decided to be A-s in the game)

Modifié par Jedi Sentinel Arian, 24 février 2012 - 05:30 .

[Hunter of Legends]

Davidicus wrote...


Edit: Also, saying TIM is untrustworthy is like saying the Reapers like to kill things.

Yes but when working with a team you need trust in your team.

I don't trust in team Tim.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Goneaviking wrote...
I've never seen anyone actually prove that they can be beaten by mirroring their technology. The Reapers have been doing this for more than 37 million years, do you honestly think they haven't developed countermeasures for their own technology being used against them? 

If nothing else they can be expected to have developed countermeasures just so they'd have an idea about what could be thrown against them.

You mean the same way we develoepd countermeasures agaisnt nukes? OH wait - we don't have those.

Offense >> Defense. Reaper shields are not insormountable. Throw enough firepower at it and it WILL fall.
The problem is getting tha much firepower - but the more advanced you are, the more of it you have to throw around.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ziggeh wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

Then we'd eat the poor buggers alive.

We wouldn't kill them, we'd just try to sell them things and build a starbucks on their homeworld.

And would steal their tech and make them economicly, culturaly and politicly dešpendant on us.
Hence, slavery in all but name.