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How Can a Rational Moral Person Still Support Cerberus?


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#451
Lotion Soronarr

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Hunter of Legends wrote...

Farbautisonn wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Denying the Reapers a resource to the war isn't "having an effect"?


-You mean that the techno gods needed human paste as engine grease to start the latest installment in the 37million year and running culling of the cattle? Year. That works storywise too. :blink:


They had a base of operations that would have been unaccessable if not for what shepard and co did in ME2.


That "base of operations" is irrelevant to the reaper war effort.

The destruction of the CB changes nothing for us

#452
Lotion Soronarr

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[quote]Goneaviking wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]Goneaviking wrote...
As for the baby reaper. It looked to me like it was being grown as much as being assembled. If that's true then once the process was kicked off then it would keep growing itself according to it's own genetic template. Provided the human goo kept coming the fun stuff could have just grown at their own pace.[/quote]

Thats' not how it works. The core is inserted into a reaper shell (the starship).
It isn't grown. It is built.
So you're sying their building a full-grown reaper with reaper weapons, reaper shields , reaper sensors and reaper engines...without reaper tech?

[/quote]

Because... you say so? I just watched the scene with the baby reaper again, I kept an eye out for tech apparently used to manufacture the reaper or install hardware into it and aside from those tubes injecting people goo into the reaper it's surprisingly lacking. You'd expect to see something in the big chamber they're using to build it.[/quote]

No, because it makes sense.

The base is MASSIVE.. I mean, MASSIVE. You honestly think you saw the whole base and everything in it?
You really think the core and the shell would be made in the same chamber?

The chamber with the core isn't even big enough to fit the shell - a reaper "body/shell" is 2 km long.
And the base is practicly citadel-sized. More than enough room to fit several reapers in it.

And no..the core is metallis. The reaper shell is quite clearly metallic and NOT organic. You were in a derelict reaper - that isnt' grown. It is built.

[quote]
The truth is we know very little about how they create reapers. We don't know if they're assembled or if they're grown. We don't know if the people goo they use is what they construct it out of, or if it's some sort of nutrient they use to give it life.[/quote]

No, we know they are built.




[quote]
And you know this..how? How do you know we wouldn't be abel to repair it? How do you know we can't get anything usefull? [/quote]

Because it's completely alien technology.[/quote]

Didn't stop Cerberus before..

Knowledge is power. And not all knowledge is technologys ment to be mass-produced. You can find otu stuff about reapers that can help you and DON'T require mass producitng stuff (like for example, how indoctrination works...reaper weak spots, etc...)



[quote][quote]
And all of that will fail epicly in a clash against the reapers. Sovereing alone, stationary and in a tacticly disadvantageous position took on TWO fleets and was kickin ass.
The Normandy is so insignificant, it's laughable.[/quote]

Sovereign was not alone. It was accompanied by a fleet of geth and it attacked with the advantage of surprise and the Citadel fleet didn't have time to co-ordinate particularly since the control room had already been taken by Sovereign's geth allies. By the time it becomes stationary the Citadel's arms have closed and shielded it from further attack until Shepard opens it.[/quote]

Listen to what HAckeet sez in arrival. Listen to the battle of the Citadel. Teh alliance fleet focuses on Sovereign.
"Sovereign is too strong" ring a bell?
In other words - you're proven wrong by the game.



[quote][quote]
Which makes the reapers even MORE dangerous, since they don't have our logistical weakness. And are also faster and moe manouverable, and strategicly more mobile. They don't have fixed assets to defend either.
That alone is such a MASSIVE advantage, then tehy would wipe us out even if their fleets were equal to ours in strength.[/quote]

The reapers' strength is unproven, thus far they've depended on sneak attacks against unknowing targets and isolating systems to prevent co-operation. That they apparently don't have the same weaknesses as us doesn't mean they can automatically prey upon them, indeed the Protheans have already taken away their greatest advantages.[/quote]

Unproven? So that we FACTUALLY know a single repaer can rape a fleet, it's faster, more manuverable, has better endurance, etc..... that is nothing?


[quote][quote]
37 million year old super-strship with super-intellects, who know the galaxy like the plam of their hand will be easily tricked by us?:huh:
Are you forgetting they were working with the Shadow Broker?[/quote]

They've been asleep for tens of thousands of years, in that time galaxy has shifted in ways they won't immediately notice but in ways that the locals will know from living with it constantly. Intelligence briefings and star charts don't automatically beat out local knowledge.[/quote]

Yes they do. The reapers arne't morons.
Because of their superiror strategical mobility and no fixed assets, they dictate the battelfield, not you.

You cannot force them to commit to battle. They can force you.





[quote][quote]
Yeah right. You forgetting the indoctrination? Epic backstabing, betrail and inteligence leaks follows.
And that instant-comunication is stanrard for all reapers?[/quote]

All of which is to be expected, none of which is insurmountable. I'm not going to throw in the towel and assume that the only way to win the game is an act of God, which seems to be the position you're taking. [/quote]

And yet it is.
Just because you expect half of your people to turn agaisnt you and join the enemy ,doesn't mean you can do anything about it (especialyl when the one who turns might be you).



[quote][quote]
I mean seriously..... Bio has set up the reapers with so many epic advantages that even if you put a retard in charge of the reaper invasion, tehy would win easily.
[/quote]

We've already taken away their biggest advantages, and there are plenty of examples of apparently inferior forces beating more advanced and dominant forces by playing to their strengths and fighting on their own terms.
[/quote]


Lol...no. What advantages? The Citadel relays? The same Citadel they can take back whenever they please?

#453
Lotion Soronarr

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Hunter of Legends wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...


The crux of an impartial party isn't someone who treats everyone like their own family: it's someone who treats no one like family.


They also need to keep themselves out of the equation.

Exactly why the Illusive Man isn't that solution.



TIM consideres himself expendable.... so what exactly is your point?:?

#454
Farbautisonn

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Hunter of Legends wrote...

But now you're arguing something I never even argued in the first place!!

You asked what was the point of ME2...i asnwered.

You asked if that has an effect...I answered.

You started throwing "value" and "don't throw Delta Force" at a tank when I never even talked about that. To be quit honest N7 for this specific mission if perfect for the job. The collectors are hardly one tank, I was merely making apoint.

You treated the collectors as if they wouldn't hassle the Galactice alliance but they would.


The point of ME2 wast to rid the galaxy of a minor nuisance. Right A minor fleet of alliance and or mercs blockading the omega 4 relay couldnt have significantly isolated the Collector threat. A threat that only targets minor human settlements. Sure. This wouldnt be a complete waste of Shepards time. 

The Reaper tech however... thats something that could turn the war around.

The effect from destroying the Collector base is what? No more attacks on human settlements? YAY! Grand.! A goal that could have been achieved in any number of other ways, a goal that is insignificant to the comming war on the reapers, a goal that has next to nill as a strategic target if you take away the tech and the information potential.... thats the entire plotline of ME2? I didnt get that at all, and thank god I didnt. Because if that had been the sole and only goal, I would rather have spent my entire ME2 experience playing beer yatzy on Omega than risk my life, the life of my crew and the most advanced warship of its size in the known galaxy.

"Hassle". Thats the precise word. The very definition of what they do. They "Hassle". They arent a paramount, or even a major threat. They are a mere nuisance. A curiosity. Strategic anthill of a target.

#455
Lotion Soronarr

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Hunter of Legends wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
He might be a Sith Lord who shoots lightning out of his fingers. Like another totally unrelated sci-fi series.

Either back up a claim with concrete support within the franchise, or drop it.


I did.

His breakdown at the end is clearly a villinous one. Hence why he keeps saying "I brought you back" instead of Cerberus.

I will be proven right in ME3.


You didn't.

His "breakdown" isn't a clearly villanous one.


Amazing how much you project onto TIM's character.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 24 février 2012 - 07:46 .


#456
Farbautisonn

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Hunter of Legends wrote...


A good leader also isn't afraid to get his/her own hands dirty. That's what I meant by "hero". TIM is too penicl pusher for me.


-Oh... this is rich... Really. A high end analyst, a strategic mastermind, a machiavellian scheemer, an epic level administrator and politician, has to "get his hands dirty". 

"Too pencil pusher" 
-Thats it! I simply refuse to belive you have any friggen kind of insight into military history since the battle of kadesh, because you are simply trying to revisionize the entire history of warfare. Sun Tzu didnt get his hands "dirty". Clausewitz didnt either. Nor did Bismark, Napoleon, Mao, Giap or any major friggen strategic authority ever. They were all more "pencil pushers" than "dirty hands".

Your perspective on the history of warfare is from the small unit tactics perspective and never leaves that perspectve. That is NEVER where you win wars.

Modifié par Farbautisonn, 24 février 2012 - 07:47 .


#457
Lotion Soronarr

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Farbautisonn wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...


A good leader also isn't afraid to get his/her own hands dirty. That's what I meant by "hero". TIM is too penicl pusher for me.


-Oh... this is rich... Really. A high end analyst, a strategic mastermind, a machiavellian scheemer, an epic level administrator and politician, has to "get his hands dirty". 

"Too pencil pusher" 
-Thats it! I simply refuse to belive you have any friggen kind of insight into military history since the battle of kadesh, because you are simply trying to revisionize the entire history of warfare. Sun Tzu didnt get his hands "dirty". Clausewitz didnt either. Nor did Bismark, Napoleon or any major friggen strategic authority ever. They were all more "pencil pushers" than "dirty hands".

Your perspective on the history of warfare is from the small unit tactics perspective and never leaves that perspectve. That is NEVER where you win wars.


It seems to he can't get above the "tactics" level of warfare....strategy is beyond him..Logistics? What is that?

Patton, one of the best generals in US history - was a logistical mastermind.

#458
Farbautisonn

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It seems to he can't get above the "tactics" level of warfare....strategy is beyond him..Logistics? What is that?

Patton, one of the best generals in US history - was a logistical mastermind.


-Not only is it just "tactics" its small unit tactics. Single platoon sized unit tactical outlook. Thats where it apparently ends.

Logistics, and intelligence? Nah. Those never won any wars. **** the pencilpushers, Its the singular guy on the ground that wins wars.

Patton was epic in his logistical capabilities and his application of said ability into his strategy. He made Monty look like a complete dork. The only guy rivalling Patton would be Guderian, the father of the combined arms school.

Modifié par Farbautisonn, 24 février 2012 - 08:26 .


#459
Lotion Soronarr

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Why we can support Cerberus? Because of THIS:


Godzilla Threshold


There are situations so bad that anything that would end them is justified. Anything.


There is wisdom in facing a threat with a proportionate response. Sure, There Is No Kill Like Overkill, but it'll likely cause a lot of avoidable collateral damage, and it'll guarantee that tomorrow the next threat is stronger. But there are times when the threat is so great and things have gone so horribly wrong that there is no
appropriate response. The situation is so dire that it justifies the
use of any and every thing that might solve it, no matter how crazy,
nonsensical, or horrific, regardless of cost or collateral damage.
Things are at the point where even summoning Godzilla,
king of monsters and patron saint of collateral damage, could not
possibly make the crisis any worse. The situation has crossed the Godzilla Threshold.
Once the Threshold is crossed, ANY plan, with even the smallest
possibility of success, no matter how ludicrous, impossible, dangerous,
unethical, or abhorrent, suddenly becomes a valid option.


Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 24 février 2012 - 08:02 .


#460
Farbautisonn

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Why we can support Cerberus? Because of THIS:


Godzilla Threshold


There are situations so bad that anything that would end them is justified. Anything.


There is wisdom in facing a threat with a proportionate response. Sure, There Is No Kill Like Overkill, but it'll likely cause a lot of avoidable collateral damage, and it'll guarantee that tomorrow the next threat is stronger. But there are times when the threat is so great and things have gone so horribly wrong that there is no
appropriate response. The situation is so dire that it justifies the
use of any and every thing that might solve it, no matter how crazy,
nonsensical, or horrific, regardless of cost or collateral damage.
Things are at the point where even summoning Godzilla,
king of monsters and patron saint of collateral damage, could not
possibly make the crisis any worse. The situation has crossed the Godzilla Threshold.
Once the Threshold is crossed, ANY plan, with even the smallest
possibility of success, no matter how ludicrous, impossible, dangerous,
unethical, or abhorrent, suddenly becomes a valid option.


In a nutshell, year.

If we dont win the war, then its a galaxywide 100% assured holocaust of all sentient organic and some inorganic races. Whats the alternative to winning the war then?

#461
Inquisitor Recon

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In ME2 Cerberus gave me these things:

Saved my life
My own ship of superior design to the SR1.
My own competent crew
My own AI
My own Hammerhead assault vehicle (better than no vehicle)
A credit bonus for scanning random junk.

Plus they have tons of style.

In ME3 the Systems Alliance will give me these things:

Arrested me so I could speak to some senior officers who were about to ****** themselves in fear over the reapers (before a giant desk crushed them)
Took my ship
Replaced my crew
Messed with my AI
Added a fanservice reporter (who looks like Snooki) despite my reputation of punching reporters.
Added a quota-filling shuttle pilot and one of those worthless Kodiak shuttles.
Added some redshirt marines who will certainly die just as fast as the redshirt Cerberus crew.

They probably stripped the Normandy of some of those advanced systems I spent my credits to pay for. They probably took out the nice chairs and replaced them with the lousy regulation stuff, they probably forgot to feed the fish, who are now dead because of them.

In short, Systems Alliance is bureaucratic jerks.

#462
Guest_EternalAmbiguity_*

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? You already had a shuttle...

#463
Farbautisonn

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ReconTeam wrote... they probably forgot to feed the fish, who are now dead because of them.


-I know. This is also one of my primary concerns. Some of my sheps have more deep and intimate relationships with those fish than the rest of the crew.

#464
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Farbautisonn wrote...

-I know. This is also one of my primary concerns. Some of my sheps have more deep and intimate relationships with those fish than the rest of the crew.


I'm trying not to think too hard about this statement...

#465
ObserverStatus

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ReconTeam wrote...
In ME2 Cerberus gave me these things:
Saved my life
My own ship of superior design to the SR1.
My own competent crew
My own AI
My own Hammerhead assault vehicle (better than no vehicle)
A credit bonus for scanning random junk.
Plus they have tons of style.
In ME3 the Systems Alliance will give me these things:
Arrested me so I could speak to some senior officers who were about to ****** themselves in fear over the reapers (before a giant desk crushed them)
Took my ship
Replaced my crew
Messed with my AI
Added a fanservice reporter (who looks like Snooki) despite my reputation of punching reporters.
Added a quota-filling shuttle pilot and one of those worthless Kodiak shuttles.
Added some redshirt marines who will certainly die just as fast as the redshirt Cerberus crew.
They probably stripped the Normandy of some of those advanced systems I spent my credits to pay for. They probably took out the nice chairs and replaced them with the lousy regulation stuff, they probably forgot to feed the fish, who are now dead because of them.
In short, Systems Alliance is bureaucratic jerks.

They seem to have replaced you with the Virmire Survivor as well.

#466
Moonshadow_Dark

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Have you heard the Illusive Man say the word "dossier"?

That voice is just so damn sexy, you can't help but be on his side!

#467
VeR0se

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Cerberus is Mass Effect's version of PETA

Modifié par VeR0se, 24 février 2012 - 08:34 .


#468
Farbautisonn

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EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Farbautisonn wrote...

-I know. This is also one of my primary concerns. Some of my sheps have more deep and intimate relationships with those fish than the rest of the crew.


I'm trying not to think too hard about this statement...


-Prude.

#469
Inquisitor Recon

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bobobo878 wrote...
They seem to have replaced you with the Virmire Survivor as well.


True. If Anderson wasn't there, they would have probably kept Shepard locked up. After the Council species had been crushed and the galaxy doomed to be "harvested", Harbinger would come float by your window and make fun of you.

#470
Ziggeh

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And would steal their tech and make them economicly, culturaly and politicly dešpendant on us.
Hence, slavery in all but name.

Well obviously, and they'd all speak perfect english and look like humans with a skin condition.

#471
ObserverStatus

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ReconTeam wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...
They seem to have replaced you with the Virmire Survivor as well.


True. If Anderson wasn't there, they would have probably kept Shepard locked up. After the Council species had been crushed and the galaxy doomed to be "harvested", Harbinger would come float by your window and make fun of you.

Kinda seems like something out of the Twilight Zone, he gets detained for 6 months, but than after her is unexpectedly released he discovers that the VS has taken his ship, his crew, his job, and his life.  Creepy.  I've seen a few screenshots where Shepard's armor case is in the hangar (formerly residing in his cabin) and I can't help thinking that this is because there will be this awkward scene where the VS refuses to move out of Shepard's quarters.

Modifié par bobobo878, 24 février 2012 - 08:43 .


#472
TheBlackBaron

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bobobo878 wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...
They seem to have replaced you with the Virmire Survivor as well.


True. If Anderson wasn't there, they would have probably kept Shepard locked up. After the Council species had been crushed and the galaxy doomed to be "harvested", Harbinger would come float by your window and make fun of you.

Kinda seems like something out of the Twilight Zone, he gets detained for 6 months, but than after her is unexpectedly released he discovers that the VS has taken his ship, his crew, his job, and his life.  Creepy.  I've seen a few screenshots where Shepard's armor case is in the hangar (formerly residing in his cabin) and I can't help thinking that this is because there will be this awkward scene where the VS refuses to move out of Shepard's quarters.


Well, if you happened to romance the VS, I see an easy fix for this...

#473
ObserverStatus

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TheBlackBaron wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...
They seem to have replaced you with the Virmire Survivor as well.

True. If Anderson wasn't there, they would have probably kept Shepard locked up. After the Council species had been crushed and the galaxy doomed to be "harvested", Harbinger would come float by your window and make fun of you.

Kinda seems like something out of the Twilight Zone, he gets detained for 6 months, but than after her is unexpectedly released he discovers that the VS has taken his ship, his crew, his job, and his life.  Creepy.  I've seen a few screenshots where Shepard's armor case is in the hangar (formerly residing in his cabin) and I can't help thinking that this is because there will be this awkward scene where the VS refuses to move out of Shepard's quarters.

Well, if you happened to romance the VS, I see an easy fix for this...

Judging by their reactions to Shepard in the demo, I think he's still in the doghouse at this point.

#474
Gabey5

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ReconTeam wrote...
They probably stripped the Normandy of some of those advanced systems I spent my credits to pay for. They probably took out the nice chairs and replaced them with the lousy regulation stuff, they probably forgot to feed the fish, who are now dead because of them.

In short, Systems Alliance is bureaucratic jerks.

Shepard was getting to fat and comfortable. I can see Anderson shaking his head in disapointment as he enters your captain's cabin for the first time, see's the fish tank, model ships and hamster.

Modifié par Gabey5, 24 février 2012 - 08:56 .


#475
Farbautisonn

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Gabey5 wrote...

Shepard was getting to fat and comfortable. I can see Anderson shaking his head in disapointment as he enters your captain's cabin for the first time, see's the fish tank, model ships and hamster.




-Good thing he didnty look under the bed where my pink feather boa and handcuffs are.