619 réponses à ce sujet

[Starch]

what about their "front" corporations/legitimate entities? if general populace supports/buys from them would that mean they unwillingly or unknowingly help cerberus forward their goals?

[ubermensch007]

I'll tell you 'How Can a Rational Moral Person Still Support Cerberus?' Granted, I don't know what the Illusive Man is playing at in ME3; but to paraphrase what  V for Vendetta said to his nemesis:

"Cerberus is an idea.And ideas are bulletproof." I think Jack Harper passed the point of no return with what he did to paul grayson in mass Effcet: Retribuition.He has no right to be the head of such an organization, committed to the advancement and preservation of humanity.It would have been one thing for Cerberus to try to see if a human could stay in control with Reaper tech intergrated into their body.But TIM drugged Grayson and made it easier for the reapers to take him over completely.To what end I no not.

After reading Mass Effect: Evolution.It occured to me that the events of those books were unnessary to be the spark that brought Cerberus into existence.All Jack Harper an Co. had to use as motivation, was what happened to the quarians.The Citadel Council and Council Races turned thier back on the quarians in their greatest hour of need!   The quarians broke no law, but thier embassy was revoked.They were cast out like refuse.I have at times thought why did the Council abandon them.When they were in a perfect position to either be Peacemakers betwixt the Geth and Quarians.Or annhilate the geth before they became to powerful.Why did the Council intervene during the First Contact War, but do nothing then?

I believe 300 years ago, the quarians were where humanity was in 2183.Very close to becoming a Council Race.Than The Morning War pops off.And the Council figures that instead of bringing the quarians into their club.They will allow the geth to decimate them.So the Council will not have to share power with another race! I don't believe in Cerberus desire to dominate other races.It will never happen and its preposterous and wrong.I do however believe that Gunnery Cheif Ashley Williams was right (for the most part) when she spoke in 2183, about how ****** sapiens shouldn't count on those who are our Allies now.Remaining our Allies later.When Commander Shepard disagrees with her.She should have responded by saying, "Look what happened to the quarians."

What happened to the quarians is proof in my eyes that the notion that there is a Galactic Community in the Mass Effect Universe is a lie! Oh yes, multiple alien species trade in goods, and there is cultural exchange.But a True Community, in my eyes: Is comprised by people who give a damn about each other.See the worth and value in those outside their family and neighborhood.And recognize that an injustice to any of us, is an injustice to all of us.

I have little doubt that a quarian during the Morning War may have said to the Council,"Mark my words.The geth are our problem today.They will become your problem tomorrow." (The destruction of the Destiny Ascension was poetic justice as far as I'm concerned. <_<) This is even echoed by what Tali says in ME1 if you talk to her in the Council Chamber.

Modifié par ubermensch007, 24 février 2012 - 11:30 .

[Blacklash93]

I don't see how a rational, moral person can support or even tolerate anything that goes on in the ME universe.

Cerberus sucks.
Council sucks.
Alliance sucks.
Terminus sucks.

No side has any redeeming values and are only self-serving. Maybe the Reapers are doing us a favor.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 26 février 2012 - 02:13 .

[Blacklash93]

Like I said, self-serving with no redeeming values. No one is looking out for the galaxy as a whole.

It's all black and no white.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 26 février 2012 - 02:16 .

[Blacklash93]

What's best for the galaxy, or anything really, is unity and peace. Not factions at each others throats fighting over the most trivial things, pretending to be civil when things are going okay but not giving a second-thought to stabbing each other in the back when interests conflict. That's what nationalisitc mentalities bring about.

[Megaton_Hope]

Davidicus wrote...

Megaton_Hope wrote...

So why is it that all Cerberus can think of is petty sadism? With the technology available, creating superior soldiers should be a cakewalk. The tricky part is training them to behave.

Yes, the tricky part is training them to behave, but you sort of contradict yourself. You accuse Cerberus of trying "sadistic" methods to produce super-soldiers, if that is even their true goal, but then you go listing all of this tech and the abilities of major alien races, trying to say that both of these things can create "super soldiers." Well, yeah, you're right! All of that tech is also readily available to the rest of the galaxy, effectively making everyone a super soldier (by today's standards). So what is Cerberus trying to create? A super-super-soldier. It's been established that the only way to do that in sci-fi is to perform crazy experiments which are usually extremely risky, yet offer little to no results.

Edit: Also, saying TIM is untrustworthy is like saying the Reapers like to kill things.

Nah, see, I don't think you caught my meaning. Every Alliance Marine has already been subjected to a kind of standard cocktail of genetic tinkering; we get this two separate times, on the Citadel and on Noveria.

Although it's kind of hand-waved, and this is explicitly rejected for Turians and Quarians, human/alien genetic combinations seem to represent a real possibility. In particular, Asari, who can produce offspring with any alien species (including humans), also bear offspring which take after their alien parent. (Like the Asari/Krogan who's tending bar on Illium.) Although it might not fit with Cerberus's charter, combining human and Asari genes would unlock the template of inherited traits available to every other species, in addition to making those so altered into long-lived biotics (Liara's over a hundred, and Samara's nearly a thousand) who can pass on their genes by reproduction with anybody anywhere.

The explanation the game uses is that alien genes aren't actually being expressed, just kind of acting as a cipher for the Asari genes...but it doesn't really seem to fit the reality of it. Plus, experiments on humans apparently give results applicable to Krogans, in spite of the differences in physiology. So there must be some baseline for comparison; it is probable that humans could be made more durable after the Krogan template.

And as of Mass Effect 2, they've already been installing cybernetic augmentations into frontline soldiers. (Even if every human biotic wasn't already running around with a head full of tech to amplify their mass effect fields.) That's at the mass production level; it's everywhere. Cerberus can concentrate their R&D on producing more effective prototypes.

There are hints that Cerberus has been appropriating alien technology in the second game, of course; their interest in the Collector Base and the disabled Geth are proof enough of that. However, the bulk of the eneterprise seems to be directed elsewhere, at least if the contact Shepherd has with these guys is representative.

Kemor wrote...

He (Ozymandias) was right in the end though wasn't he?

Uhm, no? Actually, for his plan from the comic to work, some elaboration on the initial stunt would be necessary every so often, to maintain the illusion he hoped to create. I cannot possibly imagine the world's squabbling governments coming together permanently on the basis of a single squiddly diddly teleporting into the middle of Manhattan. Undoubtedly many governments, particularly those in the Warsaw Pact, would be predisposed to suspect that this was a hoax - which of course it was. Reluctance to pool resources and share military technology would ultimately doom the scheme. He might have hit Snooze on the Doomsday Clock, but it didn't stop ticking.

The plot from the movie actually made MUCH more sense, especially with Doc. Manhattan absent, destroyed (heh) or collaborating. The Doctor himself constitutes a threat that no force in the world could combat, which could strike anywhere at any time throughout the world. This would be a reign of fear rather than a desperate cooperation, but Ozymandias does hold the means to keep up the facade indefinitely, as he has demonstrated in his first strike. Even if his role were one day revealed, there's not much that could be done about it.

Really there are no heroes in the book. Rorschach is a sociopath, murderously imposing his own ideas about right and wrong (which are somewhat skewed) on everyone around him. (Not unlike Ozzy.)  NiteOwl (II) is in it for the jollies. Silk Spectre (II) doesn't seem to know what else to do with her life. The Comedian is an all-around bastard; I have no idea why the others ever tolerated him. And Doc Manhattan...well, human concepts like heroism or villainy no longer apply to him. He's both more than human (in capability) and less than human (in his ability to respond flexibly to events and people around him). He's just acting out a script that he's seen play out far in advance.

Ozymandias, of course, is just the Hitler-Jugend (which I think is fairly explicit in his backstory), utterly convinced of his own superiority and place over all the lesser peoples in spite of all the evidence to the contrary. He really needs to fall, and fall hard, but he's got charisma on his side, and the team that finally goes after him is apparently not very strong-willed.

[Aulis Vaara]

ubermensch007 wrote...

I'll tell you 'How Can a Rational Moral Person Still Support Cerberus?' Granted, I don't know what the Illusive Man is playing at in ME3; but to paraphrase what  V for Vendetta said to his nemesis:

"Cerberus is an idea.And ideas are bulletproof." I think Jack Harper passed the point of no return with what he did to paul grayson in mass Effcet: Retribuition.He has no right to be the head of such an organization, committed to the advancement and preservation of humanity.It would have been one thing for Cerberus to try to see if a human could stay in control with Reaper tech intergrated into their body.But TIM drugged Grayson and made it easier for the reapers to take him over completely.To what end I no not.

After reading Mass Effect: Evolution.It occured to me that the events of those books were unnessary to be the spark that brought Cerberus into existence.All Jack Harper an Co. had to use as motivation, was what happened to the quarians.The Citadel Council and Council Races turned thier back on the quarians in their greatest hour of need!   The quarians broke no law, but thier embassy was revoked.They were cast out like refuse.I have at times thought why did the Council abandon them.When they were in a perfect position to either be Peacemakers betwixt the Geth and Quarians.Or annhilate the geth before they became to powerful.Why did the Council intervene during the First Contact War, but do nothing then?

I believe 300 years ago, the quarians were where humanity was in 2183.Very close to becoming a Council Race.Than The Morning War pops off.And the Council figures that instead of bringing the quarians into their club.They will allow the geth to decimate them.So the Council will not have to share power with another race! I don't believe in Cerberus desire to dominate other races.It will never happen and its preposterous and wrong.I do however believe that Gunnery Cheif Ashley Williams was right (for the most part) when she spoke in 2183, about how ****** sapiens shouldn't count on those who are our Allies now.Remaining our Allies later.When Commander Shepard disagrees with her.She should have responded by saying, "Look what happened to the quarians."

What happened to the quarians is proof in my eyes that the notion that there is a Galactic Community in the Mass Effect Universe is a lie! Oh yes, multiple alien species trade in goods, and there is cultural exchange.But a True Community, in my eyes: Is comprised by people who give a damn about each other.See the worth and value in those outside their family and neighborhood.And recognize that an injustice to any of us, is an injustice to all of us.

I have little doubt that a quarian during the Morning War may have said to the Council,"Mark my words.The geth are our problem today.They will become your problem tomorrow." (The destruction of the Destiny Ascension was poetic justice as far as I'm concerned. <_<) This is even echoed by what Tali says in ME1 if you talk to her in the Council Chamber.

I need a new playthrough!

[gearseffect]

Let's not over look the fact that the Bartarians are demonized by almost everyone in the Galaxy, I'm sure the Batarains are a big War Faring speices and so are Humans and Turians.

Given the Batarians and Humans came into the fold at roughly the time, both species were too much alike each other and therefore fighting over the same areas, and trying to prove their worth to the Council.

I think had things been done and handled differently the Batarians could have become a huge ally for the Council and Humans.

But to many hot heads, tempers, and egos were going around and the Bartains ended up being outcasts and looked down upon.

I'm not saying that the Batarians were in the right with some of they're actions, but I haven't really heard that the Council Races ever did much to help the Human vs Batarian feud.

Cerberus may have started off with the best intentions but we all know how that saying goes right?

John Harper or Illusive Man still seems like a man with a God Complex, and has since elevated himself to the level of a self or follower Proclaimed Human Messiah Savior.

Given that TIM's closest allies and followers who run his moblie station and serve him are all hand picked and must have a certain psychologically view that reduces them to nothing more than Cult followers, the most devoted and Loyal, and view TIM as a God probably only allowed his God Complex to grow and take hold.

And yes for those of you who never read Retribution TIM explains the above about his most loyal and trusted people being hand picked and having that psychological make up.

SO there is something else that helped to form my view that TIM is has a Messiah Complex.

I Should stop saying God Complex as a God Complex is completely different than a Messiah or Savior Complex

[GodWood]

Blacklash93 wrote...
What's best for the galaxy, or anything really, is unity and peace. Not factions at each others throats fighting over the most trivial things, pretending to be civil when things are going okay but not giving a second-thought to stabbing each other in the back when interests conflict.

That's real life for ya.

[TwistedComplex]

I've asked the same about people who support EA

[Nathan Redgrave]

Blacklash93 wrote...

I don't see how a rational, moral person can support or even tolerate anything that goes on in the ME universe.

Cerberus sucks.
Council sucks.
Alliance sucks.
Terminus sucks.

No side has any redeeming values and are only self-serving. Maybe the Reapers are doing us a favor.

So the moral of the story is, "A person is epic; people are fail."

Yeah, that sounds about right.

[GodWood]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...
So the moral of the story is, "A person is epic; people are fail."

Yeah, that sounds about right.

And this is why democracy sucks.

[Clover Rider]

GodWood wrote...

Nathan Redgrave wrote...
So the moral of the story is, "A person is epic; people are fail."

Yeah, that sounds about right.

And this is why democracy sucks.

Naw bro, democracy rocks.

[Hunter of Legends]

Blacklash93 wrote...

Like I said, self-serving with no redeeming values. No one is looking out for the galaxy as a whole.

It's all black and no white.

Shepard and co is.

The council is.

[Hunter of Legends]

Farbautisonn wrote...

"Too pencil pusher" 
-Thats it! I simply refuse to belive you have any friggen kind of insight into military history since the battle of kadesh, because you are simply trying to revisionize the entire history of warfare. Sun Tzu didnt get his hands "dirty". Clausewitz didnt either. Nor did Bismark, Napoleon, Mao, Giap or any major friggen strategic authority ever. They were all more "pencil pushers" than "dirty hands".

Your perspective on the history of warfare is from the small unit tactics perspective and never leaves that perspectve. That is NEVER where you win wars.

Politicians are too eager to send yound men to their deaths and the people to willing to agree.

Americas best leaders were former soldiers who were still not afraid to get their hands dirty. This didn't mean they picked up a gun and fought at the front(in fact this was a huge blunder, Russia was led by someone in WWI who thought that "leading by example" always won wars and he lost) but they understood what needed to be done and how.

TIM doesn't.

[Hunter of Legends]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

But now you're arguing something I never even argued in the first place!!

You asked what was the point of ME2...i asnwered.

You asked if that has an effect...I answered.

You started throwing "value" and "don't throw Delta Force" at a tank when I never even talked about that. To be quit honest N7 for this specific mission if perfect for the job. The collectors are hardly one tank, I was merely making apoint.

You treated the collectors as if they wouldn't hassle the Galactice alliance but they would.

The point of ME2 wast to rid the galaxy of a minor nuisance. Right A minor fleet of alliance and or mercs blockading the omega 4 relay couldnt have significantly isolated the Collector threat. A threat that only targets minor human settlements. Sure. This wouldnt be a complete waste of Shepards time. 

The Reaper tech however... thats something that could turn the war around.

The effect from destroying the Collector base is what? No more attacks on human settlements? YAY! Grand.! A goal that could have been achieved in any number of other ways, a goal that is insignificant to the comming war on the reapers, a goal that has next to nill as a strategic target if you take away the tech and the information potential.... thats the entire plotline of ME2? I didnt get that at all, and thank god I didnt. Because if that had been the sole and only goal, I would rather have spent my entire ME2 experience playing beer yatzy on Omega than risk my life, the life of my crew and the most advanced warship of its size in the known galaxy.

"Hassle". Thats the precise word. The very definition of what they do. They "Hassle". They arent a paramount, or even a major threat. They are a mere nuisance. A curiosity. Strategic anthill of a target.

Good god don't ever lead a war effort.

[Hunter of Legends]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
He might be a Sith Lord who shoots lightning out of his fingers. Like another totally unrelated sci-fi series.

Either back up a claim with concrete support within the franchise, or drop it.

I did.

His breakdown at the end is clearly a villinous one. Hence why he keeps saying "I brought you back" instead of Cerberus.

I will be proven right in ME3.

You didn't.

His "breakdown" isn't a clearly villanous one.

It most certainly is.

[Hunter of Legends]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Farbautisonn wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...


A good leader also isn't afraid to get his/her own hands dirty. That's what I meant by "hero". TIM is too penicl pusher for me.

-Oh... this is rich... Really. A high end analyst, a strategic mastermind, a machiavellian scheemer, an epic level administrator and politician, has to "get his hands dirty". 

"Too pencil pusher" 
-Thats it! I simply refuse to belive you have any friggen kind of insight into military history since the battle of kadesh, because you are simply trying to revisionize the entire history of warfare. Sun Tzu didnt get his hands "dirty". Clausewitz didnt either. Nor did Bismark, Napoleon or any major friggen strategic authority ever. They were all more "pencil pushers" than "dirty hands".

Your perspective on the history of warfare is from the small unit tactics perspective and never leaves that perspectve. That is NEVER where you win wars.

It seems to he can't get above the "tactics" level of warfare....strategy is beyond him..Logistics? What is that?

Patton, one of the best generals in US history - was a logistical mastermind.

You two just love putting words in my mouth.

Especially you Farby. I never once said tactics win wars alone. Logistics, Strategy, hell MORAL wins wars. Above all simple economis and public support determine wars.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

In b4 nationalism is racism nonsense.

Also democracy sucks. Aristocracy (in Platonic-Aristotelian terms) is the best form of government.

[Hunter of Legends]

Jedi Sentinel Arian wrote...

In b4 nationalism is racism nonsense.

Also democracy sucks. Aristocracy (in Platonic-Aristotelian terms) is the best form of government.

Plato's society will never work in our current reality.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Jedi Sentinel Arian wrote...

In b4 nationalism is racism nonsense.

Also democracy sucks. Aristocracy (in Platonic-Aristotelian terms) is the best form of government.

Plato's society will never work in our current reality.

Yes, because of that I prefer Hegel's semi-constitutional Monarchy and Schopenhauer's Aristocratic Monarchy added with socialist economy methods.

The base of democracy is nonsense. The idiots who have the same interests and don't know a crap about politics, economy and education, vote for their popular candidate to change the law for their comfort :populism ... it's mindless legislation.

[Hunter of Legends]

Jedi Sentinel Arian wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Jedi Sentinel Arian wrote...

In b4 nationalism is racism nonsense.

Also democracy sucks. Aristocracy (in Platonic-Aristotelian terms) is the best form of government.

Plato's society will never work in our current reality.

Yes, because of that I prefer Hegel's semi-constitutional Monarchy and Schopenhauer's Aristocratic Monarchy added with socialist economy methods.

The base of democracy is nonsense. The idiots who have the same interests and don't know a crap about politics, economy and education, vote for their popular candidate to change the law for their comfort :populism ... it's mindless legislation.

I don't disagree but this is neither the forum nor the correct community to discuss these issues.

Democracy would work if the masses were more educated on the world but alas...