619 réponses à ce sujet

[Hunter of Legends]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You didn't.

His "breakdown" isn't a clearly villanous one.

It most certainly is.

Well, if you say so than it MUST be true.
I guess there no possibility of ANY other interpretation whatsoever, right?

Do you know how presentation works in a narrative?

Then you'd know villians use I's and Me's to coerce people into doing things.

[ubermensch007]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Jedi Sentinel Arian wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

Jedi Sentinel Arian wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Jedi Sentinel Arian wrote...

In b4 nationalism is racism nonsense.

Also democracy sucks. Aristocracy (in Platonic-Aristotelian terms) is the best form of government.

Plato's society will never work in our current reality.

Yes, because of that I prefer Hegel's semi-constitutional Monarchy and Schopenhauer's Aristocratic Monarchy added with socialist economy methods.

The base of democracy is nonsense. The idiots who have the same interests and don't know a crap about politics, economy and education, vote for their popular candidate to change the law for their comfort :populism ... it's mindless legislation.

Some Jedi you are.

Some Geth you are.

I'm founding the most pragmatic and also socialistic form of government, the true empire. It is historically, philosophically and economically enriched. ... much better than ****** Liberal Democracy.

I would prefer a meritocracy.

@Hunter of Legends: I concur... :innocent:

[jbadm04]

Saphra Deden wrote...

In ME2 every time a squadmate or Anderson said "Cerberus can't be trusted" I always thirsted for an explanation.

What do you mean Cerberus can't be trusted? Do you mean I can't trust them to fight the Reapers? Why not?

 

Realy? I not even once. If you are looking for an answer, you should ask youself a question: what have I to do, to gain someones trust?

To get someones trust,
you have to be open about your goals... check
you have to be open about your motives... check
you have to be open about your actions to reach your goals through motives... epic fail.

Cerberus/TIM constantly lie to others. It is a very hideous and shadowy organization, they just cant be trusted, especialy when you look at the evidence (what they did in the past). Also, when you have someones trust and you do something realy stupid to lose it, you have to quadruple your efforts to get the trust back, but actualy, you may just never get it again. Btw, TIM never trust you, how can trust you him in return?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ziggeh wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Well, if you say so than it MUST be true.
I guess there no possibility of ANY other interpretation whatsoever, right?

That's pretty much the basis of most of your statements. Who needs supporting logic, amarite?

Look who's talking....

Sure, we can go on in a circle accusing eachother how there's no logic, reason, evidence or whatever...but it's pointless.

Either something can be proven or it can't..
And TIM's breakdown being villanous CAN'T.

Do you know how presentation works in a narrative?

Then you'd know villians use I's and Me's to coerce people into doing things.

Do you know how talking works in real life? Try it sometime.

[Lotion Soronarr]

jbadm04 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

In ME2 every time a squadmate or Anderson said "Cerberus can't be trusted" I always thirsted for an explanation.

What do you mean Cerberus can't be trusted? Do you mean I can't trust them to fight the Reapers? Why not?

 

Realy? I not even once. If you are looking for an answer, you should ask youself a question: what have I to do, to gain someones trust?

To get someones trust,
you have to be open about your goals... check
you have to be open about your motives... check
you have to be open about your actions to reach your goals through motives... epic fail.

Cerberus/TIM constantly lie to others. It is a very hideous and shadowy organization, they just cant be trusted, especialy when you look at the evidence (what they did in the past). Also, when you have someones trust and you do something realy stupid to lose it, you have to quadruple your efforts to get the trust back, but actualy, you may just never get it again. Btw, TIM never trust you, how can trust you him in return?

You use "trust" as a blanket terms. Trust to do what? Be more specific.


Also, TIM doens't constantly lie. He didn't tell you everything twice, but it was for a very good reason - to ensure mission sucess. Shepard is a soldier. A ground pounder. Hence, expendable. Any strategist worth his salt knows that.
Or do you really believe the Council or the Alliance consider Shepard any differently? They don't. It's the nature of things.
Another fact of life is that everyone lies. The only difference is why they lie. It could be to impress, to protect, out of vanity, jealousy - whatever. A million reasons.

TIM's lies were all justified. Hence, why I don't have a problem with them.
There's no way I can trust TIM completely - ther'es very few, if any pople one usually can - but I can trust him to be TIM.
I can trust his goals. I can trust his motives. This in itself makes him predictable - and thus reliable.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 26 février 2012 - 08:40 .

[Aimi]

Jedi Sentinel Arian wrote...

All I praise is 19th century Germany (with more caring for the people, socialist policies)

An Empire with socialist policies is an empire for the Eternity.

Still an advisory senate is needed for the needs and best of Empire.

Ew, the Kaiserreich? Really?

I mean, it wasn't as bad as some of its contemporaries (e.g. the tsarist empire, or the British), but the system was fundamentally flawed all the same. Even from the perspective of the armed forces - something you'd think Imperial Germany would do quite well - the state was inefficient, ad hoc, and incorporated all the drawbacks of decentralization with those of centralization, with few positives if any. All the "competing agencies" crap, with few to no boards or councils to facilitate dialogue, makes one think of what the Third Reich eventually became. And at least the Hitlerites had the ability to "work toward the Führer".

Hell, if the Kaiserreich had had half the ability to coordinate state policy and grand strategy that the British did, Germany would've won the First World War in 1916 or 1917. 

Plus, when the Reichstag was poorly managed (i.e. basically everything that happened post-1908 or so) it was really poorly managed, and only resulted in policy gridlock that would put the modern American government to shame. In large part, this was a direct result of the aforementioned "socialist" (in reality, paternalistic) policies Bismarck put in place, with social insurance and pensions - it caused a pendulum swing that destroyed the Nationalliberale, fragmented the various conservatives (and the largest fragments were complete antigovernment nutjobs like the Alldeutsche), and only made the SPD and its ilk stronger. The election of 1912 was a long time in coming, and when it came, things began to come crashing down.

[Clover Rider]

Jedi Sentinel Arian wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

Jedi Sentinel Arian wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Jedi Sentinel Arian wrote...

In b4 nationalism is racism nonsense.

Also democracy sucks. Aristocracy (in Platonic-Aristotelian terms) is the best form of government.

Plato's society will never work in our current reality.

Yes, because of that I prefer Hegel's semi-constitutional Monarchy and Schopenhauer's Aristocratic Monarchy added with socialist economy methods.

The base of democracy is nonsense. The idiots who have the same interests and don't know a crap about politics, economy and education, vote for their popular candidate to change the law for their comfort :populism ... it's mindless legislation.

Some Jedi you are.

Some Geth you are.

I'm founding the most pragmatic and also socialistic form of government, the true empire. It is historically, philosophically and economically enriched. ... much better than ****** Liberal Democracy.

Yes that is my name.:innocent:

I like Socialism too, but it depends on what type of Socialism it is and I also like it because it can fit into a "****** Liberal Democracy".

[Arppis]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

jbadm04 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

In ME2 every time a squadmate or Anderson said "Cerberus can't be trusted" I always thirsted for an explanation.

What do you mean Cerberus can't be trusted? Do you mean I can't trust them to fight the Reapers? Why not?

 

Realy? I not even once. If you are looking for an answer, you should ask youself a question: what have I to do, to gain someones trust?

To get someones trust,
you have to be open about your goals... check
you have to be open about your motives... check
you have to be open about your actions to reach your goals through motives... epic fail.

Cerberus/TIM constantly lie to others. It is a very hideous and shadowy organization, they just cant be trusted, especialy when you look at the evidence (what they did in the past). Also, when you have someones trust and you do something realy stupid to lose it, you have to quadruple your efforts to get the trust back, but actualy, you may just never get it again. Btw, TIM never trust you, how can trust you him in return?

You use "trust" as a blanket terms. Trust to do what? Be more specific.


Also, TIM doens't constantly lie. He didn't tell you everything twice, but it was for a very good reason - to ensure mission sucess. Shepard is a soldier. A ground pounder. Hence, expendable. Any strategist worth his salt knows that.
Or do you really believe the Council or the Alliance consider Shepard any differently? They don't. It's the nature of things.
Another fact of life is that everyone lies. The only difference is why they lie. It could be to impress, to protect, out of vanity, jealousy - whatever. A million reasons.

TIM's lies were all justified. Hence, why I don't have a problem with them.
There's no way I can trust TIM completely - ther'es very few, if any pople one usually can - but I can trust him to be TIM.
I can trust his goals. I can trust his motives. This in itself makes him predictable - and thus reliable.

TIM is expendable.

And it's funny that you are ok with everything TIM does, just because he sugarcoats it nicely for you. And I'm sure placing trust in him pays off nicely in ME3. *pats*

[jbadm04]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You use "trust" as a blanket terms. Trust to do what? Be more specific.


Also, TIM doens't constantly lie. He didn't tell you everything twice, but it was for a very good reason - to ensure mission sucess. Shepard is a soldier. A ground pounder. Hence, expendable. Any strategist worth his salt knows that.
Or do you really believe the Council or the Alliance consider Shepard any differently? They don't. It's the nature of things.
Another fact of life is that everyone lies. The only difference is why they lie. It could be to impress, to protect, out of vanity, jealousy - whatever. A million reasons.

TIM's lies were all justified. Hence, why I don't have a problem with them.
There's no way I can trust TIM completely - ther'es very few, if any pople one usually can - but I can trust him to be TIM.
I can trust his goals. I can trust his motives. This in itself makes him predictable - and thus reliable.

Trust is a quite generic term and it is used as freely as Saphra did... or just like Anderson or other Squadies do when they say "Cerberus cant be trusted" (without any other explanation).

To send troops into a hot zone without any intel is considered "bad habit". You dont have to tell your pawns, but you sure as hell have to tell your commanding officers, especialy when this one is such a "valuable asset" as TIM claims all the time.
Sure TIM have reasons not to tell you, but thats exactly the point, why he (and Cerberus) can not be trusted (in general).
Any pencil-pusher-strategist knows: sacrificing your troop-leader isnt a smart move. Shepard is not just your common "soldier pawn". The mastermind have to work with the troop-leader, as the troop-leader have to work with the troops. Its quite simple. Again, the "mastermind" can do as he pleases, he dont have to tell anything, but again, this just encourages distrust.
The Alliance/Counsil do not consider Shep differently, but they treat him differently.
I know a lot of people who do not lie, never. Any lie, however small or justified, is a seed for mistrust. If you lie to someone, you abuse those persons trust and good will. And thats what this is about, trust.

No lie is ever justified. You should forget about this "concept". People who lie all the time to gain some advantage tell you its justified and ok, it is not. To even think any lie could be justified tells me how "broken" this world already is...
At the last statement Im with you . We can trust TIM to be TIM and thus, sooner or later, he will shoot us in the back.

[Ahms]

Please do not confuse and conflate rational with moral.

Modifié par Ahms, 27 février 2012 - 12:46 .

[GracefulChicken]

jbadm04 wrote...

No lie is ever justified. You should forget about this "concept". People who lie all the time to gain some advantage tell you its justified and ok, it is not. To even think any lie could be justified tells me how "broken" this world already is...
At the last statement Im with you . We can trust TIM to be TIM and thus, sooner or later, he will shoot us in the back.

I'll make sure to tell all those sickly kids at the hospital how grotesque and close to death they look instead of telling them they look good next time^_^ Or when the grocery store checkout lady asks how I am, I'll delve into all my emotional problems at the time instead of saying "Good, you?". Lies are justified all the time, lies arent only told to hurt or for your own advantage. Sometimes you lie in order to do the right thing.

Modifié par GracefulChicken, 27 février 2012 - 12:56 .

[Hunter of Legends]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Well, if you say so than it MUST be true.
I guess there no possibility of ANY other interpretation whatsoever, right?

That's pretty much the basis of most of your statements. Who needs supporting logic, amarite?

Look who's talking....

Sure, we can go on in a circle accusing eachother how there's no logic, reason, evidence or whatever...but it's pointless.

Either something can be proven or it can't..
And TIM's breakdown being villanous CAN'T.

Do you know how presentation works in a narrative?

Then you'd know villians use I's and Me's to coerce people into doing things.

Do you know how talking works in real life? Try it sometime.

This isn't real life.

Know the difference, it will save your life.

[Collider]

Cerberus is particularly appealing if you're amoral.

[MaraGriffyn]

Ahms wrote...

Please do not confuse and conflate rational with moral.

Basically this. The entire premise of this thread is flawed when the OP conflates "morality" and "rationality". They are not the same thing, and are tangentially related, at best.

Anyway, it's a game. Some playthroughs, my Shepard sided against Cerberus. Some of them, Shepard sided with them. It's not difficult to "rationalize" both of those choices.

[General User]

jbadm04 wrote...
To send troops into a hot zone without any intel is considered "bad habit". You dont have to tell your pawns, but you sure as hell have to tell your commanding officers, especialy when this one is such a "valuable asset" as TIM claims all the time.

Aye.  Well put.  I know, hindsight is 20/20, but TIM really dropped the ball by not making more of an effort to reach out to Shepard and bring him "inside."

Modifié par General User, 27 février 2012 - 01:18 .

[Raknot3]

wildannie wrote...

A rational moral person cannot support cerberus, they can however roleplay an irrational amoral shepard who does.

@Jedi Sentinel Arian... Cerberus does not pursue the greater good.

/agree

[Malanek]

MaraGriffyn wrote...

Ahms wrote...

Please do not confuse and conflate rational with moral.

Basically this. The entire premise of this thread is flawed when the OP conflates "morality" and "rationality". They are not the same thing, and are tangentially related, at best.

Anyway, it's a game. Some playthroughs, my Shepard sided against Cerberus. Some of them, Shepard sided with them. It's not difficult to "rationalize" both of those choices.

I just think there is supposed to be an "and" there isn't there? 

[RoboticWater]

jbadm04 wrote...


Trust is a quite generic term and it is used as freely as Saphra did... or just like Anderson or other Squadies do when they say "Cerberus cant be trusted" (without any other explanation).

To send troops into a hot zone without any intel is considered "bad habit". You dont have to tell your pawns, but you sure as hell have to tell your commanding officers, especialy when this one is such a "valuable asset" as TIM claims all the time.
Sure TIM have reasons not to tell you, but thats exactly the point, why he (and Cerberus) can not be trusted (in general).
Any pencil-pusher-strategist knows: sacrificing your troop-leader isnt a smart move. Shepard is not just your common "soldier pawn". The mastermind have to work with the troop-leader, as the troop-leader have to work with the troops. Its quite simple. Again, the "mastermind" can do as he pleases, he dont have to tell anything, but again, this just encourages distrust.
The Alliance/Counsil do not consider Shep differently, but they treat him differently.
I know a lot of people who do not lie, never. Any lie, however small or justified, is a seed for mistrust. If you lie to someone, you abuse those persons trust and good will. And thats what this is about, trust.

No lie is ever justified. You should forget about this "concept". People who lie all the time to gain some advantage tell you its justified and ok, it is not. To even think any lie could be justified tells me how "broken" this world already is...
At the last statement Im with you . We can trust TIM to be TIM and thus, sooner or later, he will shoot us in the back.

Placebo's are lies and they help people regularly.

[Malanek]

jbadm04 wrote...
No lie is ever justified. 

"No mamm, unfortunately due to the ventilators there was not enough smoke. Your daughter would have been fully conscious and died in agonising pain as her flesh was slowly melted from her bones in 200 degree heat. "

or 

"Either tell me the code to the bomb so I can kill millions of people or I shoot you" 

[GodWood]

Hunter of Legends wrote...
This isn't real life.

Shepard doesn't know that.

[gmboy902]

 Because Miranda is hot.

[IronVanguard]

The problem is all their secret science projects for "the greater good" tend to end up going haywire and killing everyone.


See, Cerberus isn't evil. They're just incompetent.

And stupid. They spent billions bringing Shepard back to life because he's the best, and now they think they can stop him? Ha, haha.