619 réponses à ce sujet

[Hunter of Legends]

GodWood wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...
This isn't real life.

Shepard doesn't know that.

We do.

[Davnort]

i suport the ME2 cerberus.

[GodWood]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...
This isn't real life.

Shepard doesn't know that.

We do.

My mistake. I was under the impression this discussion was based on determining what's the logical course of action for a Shepard to take (pro-Cerb or not) and thus naturally bringing in outside knowledge would be metagaming and completely invalidate your argument.

However it seems the actual discussion was many, many pages ago you claimed TIM was using his power for purely corrupt, self serving things (or something to that affect, really wasn't clear) and pointed to the SB files as proof of this. When asked to explain what it is in the SB files that made you think this you ignored that and proceeded to claim that because he says "I" and "me" too many times when Shepard blows up the CB he is clearly a self centred and furthermore that's evidence that's he's having a "villanous breakdown"

Now I've taken the liberty of counting just how many times he says "I" and "Me" and any other variations of in his supposed "villanous breakdown".

Five.

The Actual quotes?

"Shepard, you're making a habit of costing me more then time and money"

"I should've known you'd choke on the hard decisions"

"Don't turn your back on me now Shepard. I made you. I brought you back from the dead".

And that's it. Amusingly Shepard says I and me four times so I guess that means he was just one more I/me away from having a villain breakdown.

Modifié par GodWood, 27 février 2012 - 04:09 .

[DPSSOC]

jbadm04 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...
In ME2 every time a squadmate or Anderson said "Cerberus can't be trusted" I always thirsted for an explanation.

What do you mean Cerberus can't be trusted? Do you mean I can't trust them to fight the Reapers? Why not? 

Realy? I not even once. If you are looking for an answer, you should ask youself a question: what have I to do, to gain someones trust?

To get someones trust,
you have to be open about your goals... check
you have to be open about your motives... check
you have to be open about your actions to reach your goals through motives... epic fail.

How is it a fail on the last one?  TIM and Cerberus in general never once hesitate to point out that they'll do whatever they feel is necessary to accomplish their goals.  How is that being dishonest?

jbadm04 wrote...
Btw, TIM never trust you, how can trust you him in return?

TIM trusts you plenty.  He trusts you with his ship, he trusts your judgement (allowing you to make mission calls), Cerberus (though not TIM directly in all cases) regularly trusts you with access to classified information, in many cases at great risk to their own goals.  TIM watches you but if he didn't trust you he would have done something to ensure he could keep you in line.

Arppis wrote...
TIM is expendable.

As of ME2 no he really isn't. I know many people don't like to acknowledge this but as of ME2 TIM is your only sure ally. I mean we're pretty sure the Quarians, Geth, Rachni, Krogan will step in for us if we've set them up right but so far the only group that has is Cerberus. The Alliance and Council are dead set on ignoring the problem so none of them can be counted on, you can't count on any of the non-Council races cause they aren't going to rock the boat, and as I said while others have suggested support the only one who's stepped up to the plate is TIM.

Analogy: You're going to go into somebody's backyard with a load of no trespassing signs to get a ball back. The Council and the Alliance have walked off and refuse to be part of it, the QGRK are shouting their support from 50 yards away, and Cerberus is at the fence ready to give you a boost. Now Cerberus may run off and leave you to face the music, it may even be likely, but they're still the only one offerring a helping hand.

That's why I support Cerberus, because at the end of the day they're the only group that's joined me at the fence.

jbadm04 wrote...
The Alliance/Counsil do not consider Shep differently, but they treat him differently.

How so?

jbadm04 wrote...
No lie is ever justified. You should forget about this "concept". People who lie all the time to gain some advantage tell you its justified and ok, it is not. To even think any lie could be justified tells me how "broken" this world already is...

Social etiquette would like to have a word with you.

[DJBare]

IronVanguard wrote...

The problem is all their secret science projects for "the greater good" tend to end up going haywire and killing everyone.


See, Cerberus isn't evil. They're just incompetent.

And stupid. They spent billions bringing Shepard back to life because he's the best, and now they think they can stop him? Ha, haha.

I definitely had to quote this, it about sums up the almighty cerburus.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Arppis wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You use "trust" as a blanket terms. Trust to do what? Be more specific.


Also, TIM doens't constantly lie. He didn't tell you everything twice, but it was for a very good reason - to ensure mission sucess. Shepard is a soldier. A ground pounder. Hence, expendable. Any strategist worth his salt knows that.
Or do you really believe the Council or the Alliance consider Shepard any differently? They don't. It's the nature of things.
Another fact of life is that everyone lies. The only difference is why they lie. It could be to impress, to protect, out of vanity, jealousy - whatever. A million reasons.

TIM's lies were all justified. Hence, why I don't have a problem with them.
There's no way I can trust TIM completely - ther'es very few, if any pople one usually can - but I can trust him to be TIM.
I can trust his goals. I can trust his motives. This in itself makes him predictable - and thus reliable.

TIM is expendable.

Yup. To save the galaxy, everyone is.

As long as that someone is expended securing an advantage agasint the reapers that is.

[Lotion Soronarr]

jbadm04 wrote...
To send troops into a hot zone without any intel is considered "bad habit". You dont have to tell your pawns, but you sure as hell have to tell your commanding officers, especialy when this one is such a "valuable asset" as TIM claims all the time.

No you don't.
Everyone is informed on a "need to know basis". And it's the brass that determines who needs to know and what is needed to know.

Sure TIM have reasons not to tell you, but thats exactly the point, why he (and Cerberus) can not be trusted (in general).

No, that's exactly hte poitn why he can be trusted. In general.
You're talking about trust in doing what's right for you. I'm talking about doing what's right for humanity.

Any pencil-pusher-strategist knows: sacrificing your troop-leader isnt a smart move. Shepard is not just your common "soldier pawn". The mastermind have to work with the troop-leader, as the troop-leader have to work with the troops. Its quite simple. Again, the "mastermind" can do as he pleases, he dont have to tell anything, but again, this just encourages distrust.

Bollocks. Shepards wasn't sacrificed, he was put at risk. Thatz's a different kettle of fish. And if the extra risk was worth it (and it was), then it IS justified.
Shepard being super-special is part of the whole player experience. But realisticly, any army in the world would consider Shep expendable.

The Alliance/Counsil do not consider Shep differently, but they treat him differently.
I know a lot of people who do not lie, never. Any lie, however small or justified, is a seed for mistrust. If you lie to someone, you abuse those persons trust and good will. And thats what this is about, trust.

1) They don't. Tehy sacrificed shepard to appease hte Batarians. How is that worse than risking sheaprd to defeat the reaeprs?

2) You lie. There is no such thing as people who never, ever lie. And if any lie, for whatever reason, renders you unable to trust people, you need to grow a thicker skin.

No lie is ever justified. You should forget about this "concept". People who lie all the time to gain some advantage tell you its justified and ok, it is not. To even think any lie could be justified tells me how "broken" this world already is...

Hide from reality then, if it's too much for you to take.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Do you know how talking works in real life? Try it sometime.

This isn't real life.

Know the difference, it will save your life.

Fiction mirrors it.

Lik I said - you got 0 proof.

You claim TIM's "breakdown" is clearly viallanous because sometimes the villains use "Me". Which si hte most redicolous argument ever.

[DJBare]

Lotion, you really should calm down before posting, reversed spelling, missing letters, it all points to you slamming the keyboard while ranting like a lunatic all red faced, you'd be an embarrassment to TIM.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DJBare wrote...

Lotion, you really should calm down before posting, reversed spelling, missing letters, it all points to you slamming the keyboard while ranting like a lunatic all red faced, you'd be an embarrassment to TIM.

No, it points to me typing fast and not using spellcheck, cause I'm at work.
This thread doesn't even register on my annoyance-meter.
Feel free to believe otherwise tough...

[jbadm04]

GracefulChicken wrote...

I'll make sure to tell all those sickly kids at the hospital how grotesque and close to death they look instead of telling them they look good next time^_^ Or when the grocery store checkout lady asks how I am, I'll delve into all my emotional problems at the time instead of saying "Good, you?". Lies are justified all the time, lies arent only told to hurt or for your own advantage. Sometimes you lie in order to do the right thing.

Thats why I said the world is broken when lies become justified. Everytime you lie, you kill a bit of yourself. Sure those are some "good" examples, and there are more,  for justified lies, but you should differentiate (on that later)...

(this is just some info, you may skip to the next paragraph)
My sister is a nurse and during her career she worked at some stations, some examples are: burn unit, children oncology, amorphic station. The point in question is, why do you have to lie? If what you say may hurt (you or your recipient), then avoid an answer, shift the focus, just avoid to lie your counterpart straight in the eyes. Wisiting the previously mentioned stations I found it, if a person is just sincere and integer enough, the person can tell you ANYTHING and you wont feel bad. Sadly, there is a ton of reasons why people cant take the truth. Whatever...

If your counterpart demands/requests rather a lie then the truth (for whatever reasons), it is no longer a lie. But, to come back to the game, Shepard isnt some mind-weak nobody and can eat it, Shepard do NOT ask for lies. You know, Shepard is the kind of person, when he is about to die, he sure as hell wont hear "oh yeah Commander, you will live for another happi 50 yrs...".

[incinerator950]

Jbad, I highly recommend you don't join any Military Branch around the world.

[Lawless7225]

As Shepard, support Cerberus, no, but since the believe in the Reaper threat and are actually working toward that threat, I can use their resource to reach that goal. Then i quit and ****** TIM off and tell him thanks for the ship!

[Arppis]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Lotion, you really should calm down before posting, reversed spelling, missing letters, it all points to you slamming the keyboard while ranting like a lunatic all red faced, you'd be an embarrassment to TIM.

No, it points to me typing fast and not using spellcheck, cause I'm at work.
This thread doesn't even register on my annoyance-meter.
Feel free to believe otherwise tough...

Keeping up the appearances. That's good.

[XxXSarenXxX]

Want to know why i like Cerberus? because without them the Trilogy would have ended with 1, Thread over!

[Arppis]

XxXSarenXxX wrote...

Want to know why i like Cerberus? because without them the Trilogy would have ended with 1, Thread over!

Haha, I like them because of that too!

I don't hate them either, but I just don't trust them.

Modifié par Arppis, 27 février 2012 - 03:18 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

I don't trust anyone.

Doesn't stop me from fighting with them for a common goal.

[jbadm04]

DPSSOC wrote...

How is it a fail on the last one?  TIM and Cerberus in general never once hesitate to point out that they'll do whatever they feel is necessary to accomplish their goals.  How is that being dishonest?

Because trust is not just about truth (and the opposite of it). I can be very open to you but add: at some point I will just shoot you in the back. How can you ever trust me in this case? Thats actualy whats Cerberus is about, very shadowy, very hideous. They tell you a lot of things, but when it comes down to the point, they are realy "scatchy on details". This "by any means necessary" also implements "if you are in our way, we will just remove you". This is just a small example.

DPSSOC wrote...

TIM trusts you plenty.  He trusts you with his ship, he trusts your
judgement (allowing you to make mission calls), Cerberus (though not TIM
directly in all cases) regularly trusts you with access to classified
information, in many cases at great risk to their own goals. 
TIM watches you but if he didn't trust you he would have done something
to ensure he could keep you in line.

So does he? Do not mix trust with estimation.

DPSSOC wrote...

How so?

At least in all my playthroughs they never were as hideous as Cerberus. Do I like them? No. Do I trust them?  No, but I also do not mistrust? them.

DPSSOC wrote...

Social etiquette would like to have a word with you

Commented that already so in short: if your counterpart expects (or even stronger demands/requests a lie due to social etiquette), then its no longer a lie (in consideration of 'trust').

[Farbautisonn]

Arppis wrote...
Keeping up the appearances. That's good.

-

[jbadm04]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

jbadm04 wrote...
To send troops into a hot zone without any intel is considered "bad habit". You dont have to tell your pawns, but you sure as hell have to tell your commanding officers, especialy when this one is such a "valuable asset" as TIM claims all the time.

No you don't.
Everyone is informed on a "need to know basis". And it's the brass that determines who needs to know and what is needed to know.

Sure TIM have reasons not to tell you, but thats exactly the point, why he (and Cerberus) can not be trusted (in general).

No, that's exactly hte poitn why he can be trusted. In general.
You're talking about trust in doing what's right for you. I'm talking about doing what's right for humanity.

Any pencil-pusher-strategist knows: sacrificing your troop-leader isnt a smart move. Shepard is not just your common "soldier pawn". The mastermind have to work with the troop-leader, as the troop-leader have to work with the troops. Its quite simple. Again, the "mastermind" can do as he pleases, he dont have to tell anything, but again, this just encourages distrust.

Bollocks. Shepards wasn't sacrificed, he was put at risk. Thatz's a different kettle of fish. And if the extra risk was worth it (and it was), then it IS justified.
Shepard being super-special is part of the whole player experience. But realisticly, any army in the world would consider Shep expendable.

The Alliance/Counsil do not consider Shep differently, but they treat him differently.
I know a lot of people who do not lie, never. Any lie, however small or justified, is a seed for mistrust. If you lie to someone, you abuse those persons trust and good will. And thats what this is about, trust.

1) They don't. Tehy sacrificed shepard to appease hte Batarians. How is that worse than risking sheaprd to defeat the reaeprs?

2) You lie. There is no such thing as people who never, ever lie. And if any lie, for whatever reason, renders you unable to trust people, you need to grow a thicker skin.

No lie is ever justified. You should forget about this "concept". People who lie all the time to gain some advantage tell you its justified and ok, it is not. To even think any lie could be justified tells me how "broken" this world already is...

Hide from reality then, if it's too much for you to take.

Why should I? Because Im somoene who rather want to hear the truth, no matter how hard, rather then some "beauty"sounding lie?

[Lotion Soronarr]

jbadm04 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Hide from reality then, if it's too much for you to take.

Why should I? Because Im somoene who rather want to hear the truth, no matter how hard, rather then some "beauty"sounding lie?

No, because you actually believe what you said above. That any lie whatsoever is eeeeevil and killing a part of yourself (???).

Even heard of the concept of counter-intelligence? When you give one of your own false intel and let him be captured by the enemy? Surely, telling him the truth woud have been a stroke of GENIUS!

And I'm sure everyone in the world will be just as pleased as you to always hear the truth, regardless of any consequences.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

G#1: "I want the truth"

G#2: "You can't Handel the truth"

Indeed the truth is sad, a world of suffering.

[General User]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
No you don't.
Everyone is informed on a "need to know basis". And it's the brass that determines who needs to know and what is needed to know.

And sometimes "the brass" makes the wrong determination.  As TIM did twice with Shepard, at both Horizon and the turian distress call.

[incinerator950]

Actually, I was wrong.

[DPSSOC]

jbadm04 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
How is it a fail on the last one?  TIM and Cerberus in general never once hesitate to point out that they'll do whatever they feel is necessary to accomplish their goals.  How is that being dishonest?

Because trust is not just about truth (and the opposite of it). I can be very open to you but add: at some point I will just shoot you in the back. How can you ever trust me in this case?

 
Simple because if you've been open in the previous two (goals and motives) and are open in your actions I can predict your behaviour.  I can trust Cerberus to be Cerberus and, knowing their goals and motives, can predict when I will become an obstacle to be eliminated and prepare for it.  Now I obvious can't trust them without reservation, but in my whole life I've met only two people I could.

jbadm04 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
TIM trusts you plenty.  He trusts you with his ship, he trusts your
judgement (allowing you to make mission calls), Cerberus (though not TIM
directly in all cases) regularly trusts you with access to classified
information, in many cases at great risk to their own goals. 
TIM watches you but if he didn't trust you he would have done something
to ensure he could keep you in line.

So does he? Do not mix trust with estimation.

Yeah he does.  Like you he doesn't trust absolutely, and he does wish to maintain a certain level of control but that just seems to be part of his nature.

jbadm04 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
How so?

At least in all my playthroughs they never were as hideous as Cerberus. Do I like them? No. Do I trust them?  No, but I also do not mistrust? them.

So turning their backs on you whenever supporting you is politically inconvenient, tearing down everything you worked for, and calling you a delusional lunatic the moment your corpse was cold none of that registers as on par with/worse than "If you become an obstacle we'll kill you."?  At least Cerberus is up front about it, the Council/Alliance is all warm smiles and honeyed words until you turn around so they can drive another knife into your back.  I dunno personal opinion on the matter but Cerberus assaults my person, and bad as that is the Council/Alliance's assaults on my character are far worse..