619 réponses à ce sujet

[Zkyire]

Dasher1010 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Dasher1010 wrote...
Also, how do you feel about groups who aren't anti-black but pro white and want to preserve white nightborhoods and white heritage?

That is a racial issue. Being pro-human in the ME universe has nothing to do with hating other species simply because they are not like us. Being Pro-human in ME is being a nationalist who wants the best for our people.
It's just so happens that the nations of the ME universe are all different races.

Well since the N-word is banned in Europe, far-right political parties most of them use nationalist as a euphamism. I feel that Adolf Hitler was a great nationalist leader who fought for his people agsitn the aggression of Soviet Communism out of his love for the German people and his agenda to conquer new lands and slowly give them over to German people through a prcoess of cleansations to one day everyone in Poland woulde be German. Nationalist is totally a code word  for white racist in today's world.

I'm done taking you seriously now.

[MisterJB]

Malanek999 wrote...
Don't really agree. What about non-humans on human worlds or vice versa? Pro-human implies you would still favour the humans in those cases. It's not exactly the same but it is a very close analogy to racism.

Garrus worked on board of the Normandy SR-1 but we was not actually part of the Alliance. Similarly, an asari could bond with a human, live on Earth, have children but,from that family, only the human would be considered an Alliance Citizen.
It's not really racism. Should there ever be a war between Earth and Thessia, what side would the aforementioned asari choose?

[Dasher1010]

Ziggeh wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

We cannot co-exist with another species without forcing them beneath our bootheel. Look at the history of mankind. We do not see eye to eye with animals.

Because they're animals! You don't think we'd have a slightly different relationship with cows if they could complain?

There a no parallels for this. Literally. That's the point.

sorentoft wrote...
That is fact. We compete with other species - evolution boils down to us or them eventually. I say we kill them first.

And we're not animals. Evolution in no way boils down to us or them. In fact, if evolution boils down to anything in terms of interspecies relations, it's interdependence, but quite aside from that we have a complex jelly in our skulls that means we don't act purely on instinct.

We have never encountered other sentient life. If we did encounter other life capable of independant thought, they'd probably be willing to negotiate.

[Malanek]

MisterJB wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...
Don't really agree. What about non-humans on human worlds or vice versa? Pro-human implies you would still favour the humans in those cases. It's not exactly the same but it is a very close analogy to racism.

Garrus worked on board of the Normandy SR-1 but we was not actually part of the Alliance. Similarly, an asari could bond with a human, live on Earth, have children but,from that family, only the human would be considered an Alliance Citizen.
It's not really racism. Should there ever be a war between Earth and Thessia, what side would the aforementioned asari choose?

Are you actually sure about that? Not saying you're wrong, I don't know but it sounds pretty weird. In fact if a kid was born on earth to a human parent and couldn't be considered a citizen, with all the privaliges and voting rights I would very much say that that was rampant racism.

[eskr]

Zkyire wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Dasher1010 wrote...
Also, how do you feel about groups who aren't anti-black but pro white and want to preserve white nightborhoods and white heritage?

That is a racial issue. Being pro-human in the ME universe has nothing to do with hating other species simply because they are not like us. Being Pro-human in ME is being a nationalist who wants the best for our people.
It's just so happens that the nations of the ME universe are all different races.

Unfortunately there are plenty of people who don't seem to be able to differentiate nationalism with racism.

No matter how many times you or others tell them they'll keep bring up "But that's racist".

Extreme nationalism is still a form of bigotry.
Hating Czechs or Canadians is just as bad as hating asians or blacks.  (They may be less socially relevant prejudices, but they are both morally and rationally impoverished.)

There are good reasons why the took "Deutschland, Deutschland über alles " out of the German national anthem...

Modifié par eskr, 22 février 2012 - 08:31 .

[sorentoft]

Ziggeh wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

We cannot co-exist with another species without forcing them beneath our bootheel. Look at the history of mankind. We do not see eye to eye with animals.

Because they're animals! You don't think we'd have a slightly different relationship with cows if they could complain?

There a no parallels for this. Literally. That's the point.

sorentoft wrote...
That is fact. We compete with other species - evolution boils down to us or them eventually. I say we kill them first.

And we're not animals. Evolution in no way boils down to us or them. In fact, if evolution boils down to anything in terms of interspecies relations, it's interdependence, but quite aside from that we have a complex jelly in our skulls that means we don't act purely on instinct.

They are another species, and thus comparable to other species on Earth. Also, interdependence is both right and wrong, it is right if it boils down to us or them, wrong if it does not. Sure, we depend on other species for food, but we have enslaved the species we eat. Humans are designed to rule and conquer, any other animal with our capabilities would do the same. If you do not think another species with our intellect would not use everything at their disposal to come out on top of the inevitable race war, you are naive.

edit: Nationalism is good so long it does not lead to hate of other countries, then it is pointless.

Modifié par sorentoft, 22 février 2012 - 08:32 .

[Sgt.Catman]

Just what this forum needs, another Cerberus debate

[Dasher1010]

And has anyone ever noticed that Ashley says that she doesn't like aliens but won't work with Cerberus? That's usually a sign that Ashley is kind of that one white friend that you have who might say something insensitive about you to your face but isn't personally prejudiced against you as a person specifically. TIM is a mishmash of David Duke, Louis Farrakahn and Osama bin Laden. He's a myopic bigoted fanatic who's descended into conspiracy theories about the Turians attacking again until the Reapers attacked the Citadel.

David Duke: Black people have overrun New Orleans! It's an invasion!

Louis Farrakahn: The city wants to bring white people with money into black neighborhoods. It's an invasion!

Osama bin Laden: Americans have defended Arabs agasint Iraqi aggression. It's an invasion!

TIM: Human businesses are now being bought out by the Volus. It's an invasion!

Modifié par Dasher1010, 22 février 2012 - 08:35 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

Malanek999 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...
Don't really agree. What about non-humans on human worlds or vice versa? Pro-human implies you would still favour the humans in those cases. It's not exactly the same but it is a very close analogy to racism.

Garrus worked on board of the Normandy SR-1 but we was not actually part of the Alliance. Similarly, an asari could bond with a human, live on Earth, have children but,from that family, only the human would be considered an Alliance Citizen.
It's not really racism. Should there ever be a war between Earth and Thessia, what side would the aforementioned asari choose?

Are you actually sure about that? Not saying you're wrong, I don't know but it sounds pretty weird. In fact if a kid was born on earth to a human parent and couldn't be considered a citizen, with all the privaliges and voting rights I would very much say that that was rampant racism.

Not everyone is equal in every situation, nor should they be considered to be that.

Dasher1010 wrote...

We have never encountered other sentient life. If we did encounter other life capable of independant thought, they'd probably be willing to negotiate.

On the contrary; they'd probably be hostile to us and do everything in their power to persevere their own, and will assume we are of the same mind.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 22 février 2012 - 08:37 .

[MisterJB]

Malanek999 wrote...
Are you actually sure about that? Not saying you're wrong, I don't know but it sounds pretty weird. In fact if a kid was born on earth to a human parent and couldn't be considered a citizen, with all the privaliges and voting rights I would very much say that that was rampant racism.

Look, as much as I wish that we could live in a peaceful galaxy where terms like human or asari or turian would lose all meaning before the word "sentient", it's just not going to happen.
The Council species are locked in an endless cold war for dominance and resources. An asari will always favor other asari over humans, regardless of her place of birth or her "father" because they are her people.  Thus, allowing an asari to be considered an Alliance citizen with rights to vote or even to be a candidate for a position of power would be allowying our rivals to infiltrate us.

[Hunter of Legends]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
On the contrary; they'd probably be hostile to us and do everything in their power to persevere their own, and will asume we are of the same mind.

Or they could be diplomats similar to our UN ineffectual as it may be.

You must be a realist in these situations; blind optimism/peccimism doesn't do us any good.

[Hunter of Legends]

MisterJB wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...
Are you actually sure about that? Not saying you're wrong, I don't know but it sounds pretty weird. In fact if a kid was born on earth to a human parent and couldn't be considered a citizen, with all the privaliges and voting rights I would very much say that that was rampant racism.

Look, as much as I wish that we could live in a peaceful galaxy where terms like human or asari or turian would lose all meaning before the word "sentient", it's just not going to happen.
The Council species are locked in an endless cold war for dominance and resources. An asari will always favor other asari over humans, regardless of her place of birth or her "father" because they are her people.  Thus, allowing an asari to be considered an Alliance citizen with rights to vote or even to be a candidate for a position of power would be allowying our rivals to infiltrate us.

With that kind of logic no race other than English White's and Native Americans should be allowed to vote.

Modifié par Hunter of Legends, 22 février 2012 - 08:39 .

[Dasher1010]

MisterJB wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...
Are you actually sure about that? Not saying you're wrong, I don't know but it sounds pretty weird. In fact if a kid was born on earth to a human parent and couldn't be considered a citizen, with all the privaliges and voting rights I would very much say that that was rampant racism.

Look, as much as I wish that we could live in a peaceful galaxy where terms like human or asari or turian would lose all meaning before the word "sentient", it's just not going to happen.
The Council species are locked in an endless cold war for dominance and resources. An asari will always favor other asari over humans, regardless of her place of birth or her "father" because they are her people.  Thus, allowing an asari to be considered an Alliance citizen with rights to vote or even to be a candidate for a position of power would be allowying our rivals to infiltrate us.

Yeah, I really don't trust my Chinese neighbors who were born in this country and have lived here all thier lives.

[Xayoz]

Dasher1010 wrote...
Well since the N-word is banned in Europe, far-right political parties most of them use nationalist as a euphamism.

Wat?

Dasher1010 wrote...
Nationalist is totally a code word  for white racist in today's world.

WAT?

[Dasher1010]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...
Are you actually sure about that? Not saying you're wrong, I don't know but it sounds pretty weird. In fact if a kid was born on earth to a human parent and couldn't be considered a citizen, with all the privaliges and voting rights I would very much say that that was rampant racism.

Look, as much as I wish that we could live in a peaceful galaxy where terms like human or asari or turian would lose all meaning before the word "sentient", it's just not going to happen.
The Council species are locked in an endless cold war for dominance and resources. An asari will always favor other asari over humans, regardless of her place of birth or her "father" because they are her people.  Thus, allowing an asari to be considered an Alliance citizen with rights to vote or even to be a candidate for a position of power would be allowying our rivals to infiltrate us.

With that kind of logic no race other than English White's and Native Americans should be allowed to vote.

So, did anyone hear that people are upset that newt Gingrich said that if he won the nomination he'd make Marco Rubio his running mate? Apparently they're saying that unless your parents were born as citizens you're not born as a citizen which means you can't be President. I'm pretty sure that's inaccurate and people just don't want a Hispanic Vice President since I've actaully studied the Constitution.

[Malanek]

MisterJB wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...
Are you actually sure about that? Not saying you're wrong, I don't know but it sounds pretty weird. In fact if a kid was born on earth to a human parent and couldn't be considered a citizen, with all the privaliges and voting rights I would very much say that that was rampant racism.

Look, as much as I wish that we could live in a peaceful galaxy where terms like human or asari or turian would lose all meaning before the word "sentient", it's just not going to happen.
The Council species are locked in an endless cold war for dominance and resources. An asari will always favor other asari over humans, regardless of her place of birth or her "father" because they are her people.  Thus, allowing an asari to be considered an Alliance citizen with rights to vote or even to be a candidate for a position of power would be allowying our rivals to infiltrate us.

Oddly enough mercenary groups seem to have proved this wrong. Similar to pirates in our own history. Africans could become a pirate captain, but couldn't get past the lowest rank in a royal navy.

Modifié par Malanek999, 22 février 2012 - 08:44 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

Because I can't stand the self-righteous Cerberus haters.

Cerberus isn't about anti-alien racism. Looking out for humanity's interest first does not necessarily mean purge the xeno and ruling the galaxy with an iron fist. I don't believe TIM has plans that grand.

Indeed Cerberus attracts some racist crazies like Kai Leng, but they're
nothing more than a tool to be used and discarded as needed. They don't determine the goals of Cerberus.

Rather TIM sees the failure and incompetence of the Systems Alliance. An organization which ignores clear threats, which has done very little to build up humanity's fleets and armed forces, which isn't willing to take risks and break a few rules to gain an advantage.

Trying to work in the system to correct that would lead nowhere, so TIM has formed an organization beyond the red tape and regulations and bureaucratic BS. He manipulates events from the shadows to do what others are unwilling or uncapable of doing.

And that is why Cerberus is awesome... *cue jet flyover*

[Hunter of Legends]

ReconTeam wrote...

Because I can't stand the self-righteous Cerberus haters.

Cerberus isn't about anti-alien racism. Looking out for humanity's interest first does not necessarily mean purge the xeno and ruling the galaxy with an iron fist. I don't believe TIM has plans that grand.

Indeed Cerberus attracts some racist crazies like Kai Leng, but they're
nothing more than a tool to be used and discarded as needed. They don't determine the goals of Cerberus.

Rather TIM sees the failure and incompetence of the Systems Alliance. An organization which ignores clear threats, which has done very little to build up humanity's fleets and armed forces, which isn't willing to take risks and break a few rules to gain an advantage.

Trying to work in the system to correct that would lead nowhere, so TIM has formed an organization beyond the red tape and regulations and bureaucratic BS. He manipulates events from the shadows to do what others are unwilling or uncapable of doing.

And that is why Cerberus is awesome... *cue jet flyover*

TIM is a horrible leader.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Hunter of Legends wrote...
TIM is a horrible leader.

Yeah, he makes the mistake of getting stuff done unlike Udina or Anderson running around with his girlfriend on Omega or whatever he did in that last book.

He's Martin Sheen, you can't argue with that.

[Malanek]

TIM needs the reapers. Without them he would go down in history as an abhorent villian. But now he has the chance (and already has been) of being a hero.

[Ziggeh]

sorentoft wrote...

They are another species, and thus comparable to other species on Earth.

They, by definition are an alien species. Why would they be comparable with species on earth? They'd be intellegent, able to communicate and for all we know made out of gas, or operate out of seperate dimensions to our own, or breath cheese. You're really trying to extrapolate from how we treat dogs? That's complete nonsense.

sorentoft wrote...
Also, interdependence is both right and wrong, it is right if it boils down to us or them.

Ok. Lets start easy. Lions and zebra. The lion owns the zebra, I mean kicks it's ass. It has these big gnarly teeth and everything. And claws, christ, can't forget the claws. But if the lion kills all the zebra, there will be no more zebra to eat? Mr Lion is going hungry.

Mr Lion is dependant upon the zebra. It is not "them or us" it is "them and us".

sorentoft wrote...
Humans are designed to rule and conquer, any other animal with our capabilities would do the same.

No we're not and no they wouldn't. We're "designed" to adapt rapidly. Ruling and conquering is just a benefit. Any animal with out capabilities would write books and go on talk shows.

sorentoft wrote...
If you do not think another species with our intellect would not use everything at their disposal to come out on top of the inevitable race war, you are naive.

Because the first thing you do after crossing the vast distances between stars is look for a fight, like a drunk staggering between pubs after kicking out. I think you've massively oversimplified an extraordinarily complex question and have a basic misunderstanding of the nature of intellect. We're more far than animals governed by trite simplistic motives.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 22 février 2012 - 08:55 .

[Hunter of Legends]

ReconTeam wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...
TIM is a horrible leader.

Yeah, he makes the mistake of getting stuff done unlike Udina or Anderson running around with his girlfriend on Omega or whatever he did in that last book.

He's Martin Sheen, you can't argue with that.

He's too self serving and power hungry.

An Arcturus Mengsk.

[General User]

For me the appeal of Cerberus lies in the fact that, in Mass Effect, a cabal of vicious, racist, mass-murdering, plutocrats are suppose to be the good guys! 

In that kind of galaxy the idea of someone who can be just as nasty, but for our side does begin to take on a certain appeal.

Now don't get me wrong, Cerberus has done things where every single person involved should be lined up against a wall and shot.  But that doesn't change the fact that we need an organization like Cerberus.

Modifié par General User, 22 février 2012 - 08:57 .

[Dasher1010]

Xayoz wrote...

Dasher1010 wrote...
Well since the N-word is banned in Europe, far-right political parties most of them use nationalist as a euphamism.

Wat?

Dasher1010 wrote...
Nationalist is totally a code word  for white racist in today's world.

WAT?

The German National Democrats and French National Front can't identify themselves as ****s since the post-war governments outlawed those policies. Fascists describe themself with the term nationalist. Keep in mind that I write for a heavy metal site and I've listened to tons of National Social black metal. Read/conducted interviews with those bands, etc. I kind of know racism when I see it and I'm glad that in ME3 I'll be putting a bullet in TIM's head since views targeting foreigners as the enemy in times of peace will always be not just unethical but invoke the most blind head in the sand stupidity imaginable. I've met people from Europe, Asia and South America and I find any sort of "cultural differences" to be surface level at best.

[MisterJB]

Hunter of Legends wrote...
With that kind of logic no race other than English White's and Native Americans should be allowed to vote.

There exist different races but we are all one species, are we not? We are similar, we have the same basic needs, we can reproduce with each other regardless of race and our offspring will look like us .
Not so with the aliens. The idea of a galactic community is very good but, ultimately, we are different species. We can form mutually benefitial partnerships but to assume that a turian will not place the well being of other turians above that of humans is naive.

Malanek999 wrote...
Oddly enough mercenary groups seem to have proved this wrong. Similar to pirates in our own history. Africans could become a pirate captain, but couldn't get past the lowest rank in a royal navy.

Mecernaries are selfish who care only about providing for themselves.
In theory, politicians exist to improve the life of their people.
What are the people of humans?