619 réponses à ce sujet

[Fixers0]

Supporting terrorists has never been a good idea, though.

Modifié par Fixers0, 22 février 2012 - 09:00 .

[Hunter of Legends]

MisterJB wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...
With that kind of logic no race other than English White's and Native Americans should be allowed to vote.

There exist different races but we are all one species, are we not? We are similar, we have the same basic needs, we can reproduce with each other regardless of race and our offspring will look like us .
Not so with the aliens. The idea of a galactic community is very good but, ultimately, we are different species. We can form mutually benefitial partnerships but to assume that a turian will not place the well being of other turians above that of humans is naive.

To assume that a human won't place the needs of HIMSELF over another human is foolish.

IT's not a species thing, it's called life.

[Ziggeh]

Fixers0 wrote...

Supporting terrorists has never been a good idea, though.

Unless you're training them to fight commies.

[Naughty Bear]

Dasher1010 wrote...

Cerberus is an organization filled with anti-alien extremiests. The fact that they refer to themselves as "pro-human" instead of anti-alien and specifically target the Quarians who are intentionally modeled to be Jews in space rams home that they're futuristic Neo-****s. They're now working for the reapers in an attempt to get them to destroy everyone else besides humans. What is seriously the reason why people on here are still Cerberus fanboys?

Not all Cerberus members are anti-alien extremists, but some do join because of that.

[Fixers0]

Ziggeh wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Supporting terrorists has never been a good idea, though.

Unless you're training them to fight commies.

Nope. 

[Malanek]

MisterJB wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...
Oddly enough mercenary groups seem to have proved this wrong. Similar to pirates in our own history. Africans could become a pirate captain, but couldn't get past the lowest rank in a royal navy.

Mecernaries are selfish who care only about providing for themselves.
In theory, politicians exist to improve the life of their people.
What are the people of humans?

Irrelevent. The point was in groups not tied to a pre-existing political body, individuals can be judged on their worth rather than their race/species.

What happens when a new new mixed species colony is formed and declares independance. Within that colony the citizens would need to work together, not have heirachy based on race.

[Ziggeh]

Fixers0 wrote...
Nope.

But it always goes so well and there is never any blowback.

[General User]

There's also the idea that, when the galaxy and/or the human race were in trouble Cerberus did something about it.

Right, wrong, or indifferent, TIM and Cerberus were the ones who (as the Americans say) "stepped up to the plate."

I am... hesitant to condemn and/or second guess those who take necessary action while others sit and do nothing.

[Paula Deen]

Dasher1010 wrote...

Cerberus is an organization filled with anti-alien extremiests. The fact that they refer to themselves as "pro-human" instead of anti-alien and specifically target the Quarians who are intentionally modeled to be Jews in space rams home that they're futuristic Neo-****s. They're now working for the reapers in an attempt to get them to destroy everyone else besides humans. What is seriously the reason why people on here are still Cerberus fanboys?

The idea of a clandestine, well funded pro-human organization is NOT morally wrong, and can even be easily good.

The problem is the Cerberus does not follow its PR's maxims. It uses extreme, often horrific methods for goals that are only pro-human in the long run in abstract ways at best. Sometimes, not even that.

The Teltin facility is a fantastic example. Since the Illusive Man is confirmed in multiple sources to keep personal attention/track of all of his projects, he would absolutely know if Teltin was up to something absurd when they were burning through biotic children faster than dry wood in a bonfire. The goal itself is also problematic--even if they did somehow find a way to "unlock biotic potential in humans", ALL of their methodology for doing so would only create (at best) psychotic, traumatized, unstable, and disloyal biotics with a lot of power. That creates a PROBLEM, not a solution or benefit. In other words, Teltin's goal AND methodology were so illogical and flawed that there is simply no possible way TIM could have justified it.

The fact is, if something is "too extreme" or "wrong" for TIM, he won't even call it such unless someone else finds out. Even then, he's completely insincere.

The problem is that Cerberus is TIM, not a pro-human black ops orgnazation. It carries out TIM's will under the guise of pro-human activities.

Modifié par Paula Deen, 22 février 2012 - 09:07 .

[andy6915]

XDMMX wrote...

The Asari, Turians and Salarians are oppressive towards other species, they advance themselves at the cost of other species imo. The Asari are the evil masterminds who act nice but culturally dominate others, the Turians are about military domination and the Salarias technological domination.

The Council races dominate and impose there will on those they deem to be "lesser species" such as Hanarr, Elchor, Volus, Drell, Quarians, Batarians, Krogans and Humans prior to ME1.

Those that the Council races deem unworthy are harshly punished, the Quarians left to be exterminated bye the Geth, The Krogan genophaged into near extinction and into a hellish existence, the Batarians forced into isolation because humans where the Councils new favorite plaything, the Rachni exterminated.

The real question would be how could a rational and moral person support the actions of the Council races.

Wile Humanity was allowed to join the Council, it was only do too humanities overwhelming strength and rapid growth, that the Council feared and could not ignore, even then the Council only grudgingly allowed us to join, because they knew that Humanity would be too great of an enemy.

This is why I believe that Humanity should be cable of being independent of the Council races, and resist the Cultural, Military, and Technological domination of the other species, because when it comes down to it, the Aliens will throw us to the Wolves when it is convenient for them.

You're right, the council is bad. But Cerberus is as bad or worse, meaning at best, we get no good change, just status quo with humans at the head, and at worst we would end up with a group worse then the council.

I think there needs to be a major political revamp after the Reaper invasion is dealt with. As you said, there's no true equality with the council as it is. My idea is to have every single sapient species get a council seat, Asari, Salarian, Turian, Human, Quarian, Batarian, Volus, Hanar, Elcor, Krogan, everybody. If every sapiant species has a council seat, true equality would finally have a chance. No more of this "lesser species", "undeserving" BS the council spouts.

Modifié par andy69156915, 22 février 2012 - 09:05 .

[Hunter of Legends]

General User wrote...

There's also the idea that, when the galaxy and/or the human race were in trouble Cerberus did something about it.

Right, wrong, or indifferent, TIM and Cerberus were the ones who (as the Americans say) "stepped up to the plate."

I am... hesitant to condemn and/or second guess those who take necessary action while others sit and do nothing.

I am when the one leading them is clearly evil.

[Fixers0]

Ziggeh wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...
Nope.

But it always goes so well and there is never any blowback.

So..?

[Dasher1010]

General User wrote...

For me the appeal of Cerberus lies in the fact that, in Mass Effect, a cabal of vicious, racist, mass-murdering, plutocrats are suppose to be the good guys! 

In that kind of galaxy the idea of someone who can be just as nasty, but for our side does begin to take on a certain appeal.

Now don't get me wrong, Cerberus has done things where every single person involved should be lined up against a wall and shot.  But that doesn't change the fact that we need an organization like Cerberus.

Bascally, Bioware did a great job at making Cerberus a morally
ambigous group who followed a horrific agenda because gamers as a social
group are an inrdibly racist bunch. This is coming from somebody who
is studying game design and knows that if you wnat to put a message of
tolerance and diversity in a game, you also have to appeal to the people
who scream racial slurs in Halo and Call of Duty by putting some
Southern Strategy-style coded racism into the game that won't offend
white people since they're still the biggest market even though black
gamers are more likely to purchase DLC. The interplay between politics,
demographics and marketing is something that flies right over most gamers heads.

Modifié par Dasher1010, 22 février 2012 - 09:11 .

[Mhg122287]

Dasher1010 wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Oh, this thread is going to turn out well.

They killed an Alliance admerial, hired mercenaries to steal money from a hospital, attacked the Quarian Flotilla, turned a human colony into husks, etc. They're kind of evil, just saying.

It only took five posts before Goodwin's law kicked in.

[Farbautisonn]

Dasher1010 wrote...

The German National Democrats and French National Front can't identify themselves as ****s since the post-war governments outlawed those policies. Fascists describe themself with the term nationalist. Keep in mind that I write for a heavy metal site and I've listened to tons of National Social black metal. Read/conducted interviews with those bands, etc. I kind of know racism when I see it and I'm glad that in ME3 I'll be putting a bullet in TIM's head since views targeting foreigners as the enemy in times of peace will always be not just unethical but invoke the most blind head in the sand stupidity imaginable. I've met people from Europe, Asia and South America and I find any sort of "cultural differences" to be surface level at best.

-Odd. I studied Pol Sci and whilst you might categorize Front national as many things, the "N" word isnt one of them. Especially not under Marine le Pen. How would you categorize "Die Freheit"? 

Racism. Along with multiculturalism, fascist and a plethora of other words and terms, those are being watered out these days in europe because a segment of the populace cried "Wolf" and kept crying.  If ****sm reared it head for real today there would be nothing to call it to properly stigmatize it. ****sm lost its sting a long time ago.

As for cultural differences I have a significantly different approach than yours.

[Merengues 1945]

I've hated cerberus since "UNC: Cerberus"... they reinforced that bad idea on ME2, and the books, I've no reason to be polite with them, they're just bullies, "the human condition rot" in it's maximum splendor.

I have no reasons to sympathise with a bunch of coward obtuse, also-racist, guys like the quarians either... So, if Cerberus kills for once the quarians, then and only then I will gladly even join to their ranks.

[Dasher1010]

Merengues 1945 wrote...

I've hated cerberus since "UNC: Cerberus"... they reinforced that bad idea on ME2, and the books, I've no reason to be polite with them, they're just bullies, "the human condition rot" in it's maximum splendor.

I have no reasons to sympathise with a bunch of coward obtuse, also-racist, guys like the quarians either... So, if Cerberus kills for once the quarians, then and only then I will gladly even join to their ranks.

Not all Quarians are like that. Zal'Koris vas Quib Quib is surprisingly lucid.

[AlexXIV]

Xayoz wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
Sorry but Cerberus in ME1 and ME3 makes more sense to me than Cerberus in ME2.

What about Cerberus in ME1?

They were terrorist and you killed them on sight. Nice and easy. No complications.

[MisterJB]

AlexXIV wrote...

Xayoz wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
Sorry but Cerberus in ME1 and ME3 makes more sense to me than Cerberus in ME2.

What about Cerberus in ME1?

They were terrorist and you killed them on sight. Nice and easy. No complications.

Of course, we don't want to do any of that "Think" stuff. That's really hard, makes my head hurt.

[Fixers0]

To anwser the OP's Questions: You Don't, thats as far as i will go for now.

[eye basher]

The outcome matters more than the method in which it was achived.

[sorentoft]

sorentoft wrote...

They are another species, and thus comparable to other species on Earth.

They, by definition are an alien species. Why would they be comparable with species on earth? They'd be intellegent, able to communicate and for all we know made out of gas, or operate out of seperate dimensions to our own, or breath cheese. You're really trying to extrapolate from how we treat dogs? That's complete nonsense.

No it really is not. Since it is the only comparison we can actually make, making it makes the greatest sense of all.

sorentoft wrote...
Also, interdependence is both right and wrong, it is right if it boils down to us or them.

Ok. Lets start easy. Lions and zebra. The lion owns the zebra, I mean kicks it's ass. It has these big gnarly teeth and everything. And claws, christ, can't forget the claws. But if the lion kills all the zebra, there will be no more zebra to eat? Mr Lion is going hungry.

Mr Lion is dependant upon the zebra. It is not "them or us" it is "them and us".

Different perspective, more realistic. We have pigs in farms. Think that one through.

sorentoft wrote...
Humans are designed to rule and conquer, any other animal with our capabilities would do the same.

No we're not and no they wouldn't. We're "designed" to adapt rapidly. Ruling and conquering is just a benefit. Any animal with out capabilities would write books and go on talk shows.

Ruling and conquering is the result, thus the design. And I never excluded books and talk shows.

sorentoft wrote...
If you do not think another species with our intellect would not use everything at their disposal to come out on top of the inevitable race war, you are naive.

Because the first thing you do after crossing the vast distances between stars is look for a fight, like a drunk staggering between pubs after kicking out. I think you've massively oversimplified an extraordinarily complex question and have a basic misunderstanding of the nature of intellect. We're more far than animals governed by trite simplistic motives.

Who says I would be picking the fight? More likely than not they would. There is a lot to do before making a war of extermination across the stars. Cartography, strategy, ship design, gouging their psychology and so on. It would require an immense amount of resources, thus an immense amount of expansion, not to mention that to wage any war across the stars you need to colonize several planets to secure the survival of your species. It is not as simple as throwing a bottle at them.

[Dave of Canada]

I'd question putting the word rational next to the word moral.

[Nathan Redgrave]

I would say that anyone who really supports Cerberus is more in support of the image of Cerberus that the Illusive Man pitches to those who believe in protecting the human race above all else, while not necessarily hating aliens. The Normandy SR-2 crew is a particular example of the crowd that sales pitch is designed for, but it's only one side of Cerberus... the other side involves a dirtier, less reasonable form of pro-human activism, most aptly personified by characters like Kai Leng. Which is the true Cerberus? The true Cerberus is an organization built to further the Illusive Man's goals; the "sales pitch" is just a way to get more assets on his side.

I'd like to say something along the lines of "Cerberus isn't evil, the Illusive Man is," but that would be oversimplification. Truth of the matter is, just as many Cerberus goonies joined up for the chance to stick it to those uppity batarians as for the chance to do their part for the human race. They're all just assets to Jack Harper, though. And in ME3, he finally shows his true colors and starts treating them like the throwaways he perceives them as.

[sorentoft]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I'd question putting the word rational next to the word moral.

You don't say.