619 réponses à ce sujet

[RiouHotaru]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Having read what they'll do in ME3, how can a rational mind not support them?

Oh, I dunno...because TIM is dishonest, deceitful and misleading?  He's never straight with you, purposefully leads Shepard into traps without any sort of warning, and believes Cerberus represents the future for Humanity.

Not exactly a person I'd put my trust in.

[RiouHotaru]

Also, this conversation is obviously a thinly veiled attempt at trolling so I'll make this statement:

Regardless of your thoughts on Cerberus, the series lets you stop the Reapers as both a Paragon and Renegade in equal measure. That means all of us can believe what we want to believe, and achieve the goal we want to achieve under what moral flag we choose to fly.

We're not required to find each other's moral or pragmatic principles acceptable either. Such is the beauty of Mass Effect. Regardless of whether you think it's realistic or not, it's possible. And that's all that matters.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

You can't manipulate the Gods of manipulation.

That's foolish and arrogant.

The Reapers are not gods. Such superstitious thinking is dangerous and restrictive.

God is metaphysical, (creator and logic of Universe).

Every Physical creature, how huge it is can be killed.

Reapers are Physical and can be killed. Therefore, they are not god.

.Fixed.

Modifié par Jedi Sentinel Arian, 23 février 2012 - 05:32 .

[Hunter of Legends]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

You can't manipulate the Gods of manipulation.

That's foolish and arrogant.

The Reapers are not gods. Such superstitious thinking is dangerous and restrictive.

If was a figure of speech.

My point is that no-one is going to pull a fast one on the reapers.

[Hunter of Legends]

Saphra Deden wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Oh, I dunno...because TIM is dishonest, deceitful and misleading?

It takes a certain open-mindedness and worldliness to understand TIM's goals in ME3. They are sensible goals, even admirable goals.

Open-mindedness isn't the word I'd use.

More like power-hungry.

[Hunter of Legends]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

My point is that no-one is going to pull a fast one on the reapers.

Oh really? The Protheans pulled a fast one on 'em.

At the end of the day Reapers are just machines and machines are easily controlled with the right tools.

Problem is we don't have the right tools...and TIM will never be the right person to wield them.

[Medhia Nox]

@Saphra Deden: You know a lot of machines running on organic sapient juice now do you?

I know you're bat **** nuts... but surely even you can see the Reapers aren't just "Toasters with Tentacles."

That being said - in a way I agree with you - the Reapers are completely beatable and in no way have they shown that they are the gods - nor do they possess the god-like power - they have made themselves out to be.

[Thompson family]

"still"?

[RaenImrahl]

@Medhia Nox -- let's avoid getting personal, please.

[greatgeek]

Saphra Deden wrote...


It takes a certain open-mindedness and worldliness to understand TIM's goals in ME3. They are sensible goals, even admirable goals.

It's hard to admire a man committed to galactic domination.

[Hunter of Legends]

Saphra Deden wrote...

greatgeek wrote...

It's hard to admire a man committed to galactic domination.

Why is that?

I mean, what is bad about galactic domination?

I say it's bringing order to chaos. It's a means of achieving and maintaining prosperity for this generation and beyond. It's the security of humanity.

Nature prefers entropy

'just sayin.

[greatgeek]

Humanity doesn't have the right to deny the other races of political, economic, or cultural self-determination.

Modifié par greatgeek, 23 février 2012 - 06:24 .

[Hunter of Legends]

greatgeek wrote...

Humans doesn't have the right to deny the other races of political, economic, or cultural self-determination.

Saphra doesn't have a concept of self determination.

[RiouHotaru]

Saphra Deden wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Oh, I dunno...because TIM is dishonest, deceitful and misleading?

It takes a certain open-mindedness and worldliness to understand TIM's goals in ME3. They are sensible goals, even admirable goals.

I'll all for being open-minded.

But first TIM lies about Horizon, and is generally vague and misleading about the reasons for going there.

He pulls the SAME stunt on the Collector Ship.  He sends me into a trap with only his confidence I'll get out.

Then he asks me to, after all the crap he pulls and his general lack of politeness or respect, to hand over potentially dangerous and unknown technologies of an enemy who is well known for having their tech mind-screw you.

When he gets angry that I won't just unflinchingly listen to him, he angrily declares that Cerberus and Humanity are the same thing, and that he want human dominance.  Not cooperation, not unity, but dominance.

I don't care how well-intentioned his goals are.  His methods leave far too bitter a taste in my mouth.

Modifié par RiouHotaru, 23 février 2012 - 06:34 .

[Spanky Magoo]

Rational and moral are not the same thing. I think I would support Cerberus if it were a real organization as I believe that we (humanity) need a group not bound by morals but by intelligence and a need to push the limits and see what we are capable of. Think about stem cell research and other "controversial science".

Modifié par Spanky Magoo, 23 février 2012 - 07:07 .

[GuardianAngel470]

Saphra Deden wrote...


No, it isn't just his confidence. There's the resources he's invested in your survival, like EDI. Regardless, you are expendable. Learn to accept this truth.

Actually, Shepard kind of isn't. TIM tried to get the Reaper IFF the easy way, that didn't work. He never could have recruited all those specialists without Shepard because his organization lacks the political and racial diversity and acceptance to convince them to work toward the same end. Politcally and symbolically Shepard kind of isn't expendable.

Think about it; who else in the entire galaxy that we know of could have executed the mission in ME2? An army? A fleet? What would it have taken to unite Mordin, Jack, Garrus, and all of those other characters if TIM didn't have Shepard?

Could TIM really afford to be transporting and deploying an entire army to each hot zone? Could he have gotten the collectors to lay their trap with their only ship if he was in posession of an entire army? Could he have ever been able to trust that the IFF was the only thing that allowed the collector vessel to pass through the O-4 Relay?

I think TIM needed a leader capable of forming the most elite team of specialists ever assembled in his lifetime. He needed someone the Collectors were after, someone he could use as a lure if need be. He needed someone who could do the impossible with limited resources. He needed someone like that so badly that he brought the only person capable of doing it back from the dead. That doesn't sound like Shepard is expendable to me.

[RiouHotaru]

[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...

[quote]RiouHotaru wrote...

But first TIM lies about Horizon, and is generally vague and misleading about the reasons for going there.[/quote]

When did TIM ever lie about Horizon?
[/quote]

He implied the Collectors were targeting people close to Shepard.  He conveniently forgot to mention that he was the reason that person was there in the first place, and that he was trying to bait the Collectors into attacking.

[quote]RioHotaru wrote...

He pulls the SAME stunt on the Collector Ship.  He sends me into a trap with only his confidence I'll get out.[/quote]

No, it isn't just his confidence. There's the resources he's invested in your survival, like EDI. Regardless, you are expendable. Learn to accept this truth.
[/quote]

Ah-ha.  And there it is.  There, right THERE, is the entire crux of the Paragon's argument againt TIM.  Likely the most damning thing against him, and the reason Paragons have such strong support among the fanbase:

[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...
 Regardless, you areexpendable. Learn to accept this truth. 
[/quote]

If TIM thinks of me as expendable, then obvious he has no trust or faith in my ability to succeed.  As you put it, I am a resource, a pawn.  His confidence is solely related to the resources he has invested, but he won't care if failure results, because I am expendable.

Treating someone with whom you are working with towards a mutually beneficial goal as expendable, is anti-thetical to a cooperative venture or alliance.  In fact, such conditions mean I have NO incentive to assist him beyond what is ABSOLUTELY necessary to achieve the mission.

And since the mission was "Stop and Destroy the Collectors," well...I do just that.  Why in the world should I have any faith or belief in his words when he appeals to me to give him the base, when it's clear that I mean nothing to him.  The entire operation is about saving humanity from the Reapers, and such an operation cannot be founded on such misgivings.

Thank you for that little gem of information, Saphra.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Spanky Magoo wrote...

Rational and moral are not the same thing. I think I would support Cerberus if it were a real organization as I believe that we (humanity) need a group not bound by morals but by intelligence and a need to push the limits and see what we are capable of. Think about stem cell research and other "controversial science".

I'd agree but without limits you end up with weapons that can destroy an entire world, so intelligence without limits is always a bad thing