13369 réponses à ce sujet

[Nima55]

if you think about it bioware is really damned if you do damned if you don't. if prothy is important you get the current thread. if he isn't, people will complain that they messed up his role.

Modifié par Nima55, 23 février 2012 - 08:04 .

[GuyIncognito21]

alterIncogn1T0 wrote...
The gaming market is a lot like the automotive industry: there's a certain base price for manufacturing the core vehicle (engine, wheels, seats, etc.), and with each add-on, there is a slow and steady increase in price (power windows, heated seats, etc.).

The analogy works just fine, but the fight is about where this DLC falls in those categories you set up.

The apologists seem to think the tale of the protheans is a heated seat and the critics (like me) regard the prothean narrative as part of the core.

[Draconis6666]

GuyIncognito21 wrote...

I'm not talking about anyone's "rights."  This isn't a Constitutional argument.

What I have a problem with is agreeing with someone on a price for their car and then them telling me the engine will be $10,000 extra.

Making a profit is one thing, baiting and switching is another. 

I'm all for companies making profits, as long as the profits are the result of fair dealing and quality products, not getting people to buy something, intentionally nerfing it, and charging them extra to buy what they thought they were buying in the first place.

Thats a flawed example though because the car does not run without the engine, ME 3 wil work just fine without the Prothean, a better example is you buying a Car and they charge you extra for a CD player, or power windows, or any number of things people everyday pay extra for without any complaint.

[pilot2969]

GuyIncognito21 wrote...

pilot2969 wrote...
It seems to me that you have more of a problem with basic business principles over anything else, any CEO who makes a product and just gives it away is dooming their company to failure. I support Bioware's decision and right to make a profit.

I'm not talking about anyone's "rights."  This isn't a Constitutional argument.

What I have a problem with is agreeing with someone on a price for their car and then them telling me the engine will be $10,000 extra.

Making a profit is one thing, baiting and switching is another. 

I'm all for companies making profits, as long as the profits are the result of fair dealing and quality products, not getting people to buy something, intentionally nerfing it, and charging them extra to buy what they thought they were buying in the first place.

And you agreed on the price of the product at $60.00, knowing full well in advance that you were opting out of the additional mission and character that was included in the $80.00 version. That's not a bait and switch, just because you didn't know the details of what the DLC would be doesn't mean you were ripped off. 

In your analogy you opted for the $10,000.00 car with a V-6 instead of the $15,000.00 car with a mystery engine, and you're angry because it was just announced that the mystery engine was a V-8. They're not selling you the car and then charging extra for the engine, you just didn't perform due diligence on your part prior to agreeing to the deal.

[fatalmaverick]

Yeah appealing to emotion or pity is usually the first sign someone is lying. He's completely dodging the question/comments made here today.

[XDRonin]

Niemack Saarinen wrote...

XDRonin wrote...

Michael Gamble -
So what? is this Bioware apology for keeping it a secret? OKkk!!
- I tell you what, how about as punishment, Bioware releases the game a week earlier and we're good.

Because you have a grasp on shipments and transportation statewide and to retailers.  You  obviously know they can do that at the drop of a hat.



Not.

Well, I don't have a grasp on shipments & transportations nationwide to retailers, but I do have a grasp when I'm obviously not being serious, but I guess most people really need emoticons to get a joke.  

[AkiKishi]

RiouHotaru wrote...

GuyIncognito21 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

It doesn't even acquire alienation to make people get what they want for free.  All they have to do is feel sufficiently entitled to it without a desire to acquire it legally, and BAM, that's it.

For some people, sure, but they are who they are and there's no point in worrying about them if you're a developer; you were never going to get their money in the first place.

It's the people who were planning to buy your game 12 hours ago and now aren't that should concern you.

Luckily, those numbers aren't big enough to warrant any concern, since the forums constitute a very small percentage of the total consumer base.

This goes way beyond the boards.I expect some reviewers will pick up on it too.

[Draconis6666]

GuyIncognito21 wrote...

alterIncogn1T0 wrote...
The gaming market is a lot like the automotive industry: there's a certain base price for manufacturing the core vehicle (engine, wheels, seats, etc.), and with each add-on, there is a slow and steady increase in price (power windows, heated seats, etc.).

The analogy works just fine, but the fight is about where this DLC falls in those categories you set up.

The apologists seem to think the tale of the protheans is a heated seat and the critics (like me) regard the prothean narrative as part of the core.

YOu regard it as core to the lore, the third game could absolutly never even mention the protheans at all the entire time and by your argument the prothean would still be absolutly critical and without him the game is non-functional simply because the protheans are an important lore element of the universe that has been mentione din other games. 

Do you honestly not see the fallacy of this argument?

Its like saying that the entire plot of Star Wars A New Hope doesnt make sense because the Emperor is a key lore element but you never see him in the movie so without him the entire movie doesnt make sense.

[AxisEvolve]

bazzybond wrote...

I imagine that's the voice leaks people were mentioning?
I'm trying to avoid spoilers as much as possible. It's not really the voice I want to avoid but the things he's saying.

Affirmative. 

[Draconis6666]

fatalmaverick wrote...

Yeah appealing to emotion or pity is usually the first sign someone is lying. He's completely dodging the question/comments made here today.

I would too, everytime they have made an attempt to answer them people just tell them they are lying or completely ignore them.

[Yuoaman]

Draconis6666 wrote...

GuyIncognito21 wrote...

alterIncogn1T0 wrote...
The gaming market is a lot like the automotive industry: there's a certain base price for manufacturing the core vehicle (engine, wheels, seats, etc.), and with each add-on, there is a slow and steady increase in price (power windows, heated seats, etc.).

The analogy works just fine, but the fight is about where this DLC falls in those categories you set up.

The apologists seem to think the tale of the protheans is a heated seat and the critics (like me) regard the prothean narrative as part of the core.

YOu regard it as core to the lore, the third game could absolutly never even mention the protheans at all the entire time and by your argument the prothean would still be absolutly critical and without him the game is non-functional simply because the protheans are an important lore element of the universe that has been mentione din other games. 

Do you honestly not see the fallacy of this argument?

Its like saying that the entire plot of Star Wars A New Hope doesnt make sense because the Emperor is a key lore element but you never see him in the movie so without him the entire movie doesnt make sense.

I'm not saying the game won't make any sense without Javik, I'm saying that the game is only rewarding us with this information if we hand over more money, rather than just by sticking with the game.

[rumbalumba]

the one i don't understand, is that why was Shale from Dragon Age Origins a free day 1 DLC for NEW copies of the game but somehow this Prothean isn't?

[fatalmaverick]

WOW, I just listened to the Prothean dialogue, it is so clearly interwoven into the story! How can anyone accept this?

[Draconis6666]

BobSmith101 wrote...

This goes way beyond the boards.I expect some reviewers will pick up on it too.

Still will likely not be enough to drastically impact sales, Without widespread news coverage in mainstream news sources the impact on the total consumer base is going to be very small, will it be enough to damage sales numbers? who can say it could very well be but its not going to be 50% or 70% of the consumer base up in arms about it like some people seem to believe..

[blindchaos]

While I appreciate everyone's point of view on this issue, and agree that the selling individual components of a game as DLC is a worrisome issue, I do have a question: Why is this only now becoming an issue.

When the CE was first announced in July one of the features was described as a Prothean squad mate. Within hours the blurb was changed from prothean to a Mysterious squad mate. However, Bioware made no attempt to hide that there was going to be a crew member who would only be available through retail with a CE purchase.

Did anyone think that this feature wouldn't be a day 1 DLC? Since DAO there has always been A character for sale on Day 1. While Shale and Zaeed were obtainable through a non pre-owned copy, and Sebastion through DA2's CE. I just don't see how this is any different. This doesn't make it ethical, and that issue is worthy of discussion, but the sudden burst of outrage feels strange. I'm of course only speaking from opinion and would grateful for some clarification.

[alterIncogn1T0]

rumbalumba wrote...

alterIncogn1T0 wrote...


There have been several other DLC by BioWare that were free of charge as well, though. The Firewalker DLC and some of the weapons and armor add-ons come to mind.

I try not to pretend to know what goes on in the studios or in the devs minds, but I do believe that they're doing what bests for our interests. After all, it's because of our interests that we choose to spend our hard-earned money.

Of course, I could be totally wrong, too.

firewalker was **** anyway. Bioware shouldve paid us money for downloading that thing. yes you read that right.


there is just a ton of wrong here. first off, it's a squadmate (a Prothean at that) and his loyalty mission. okay...and then it's avaiable day 1 because it's so coincidental that it did not make the gold master version so between the time the game went gold and its release they finished and ironed out the whole DLC thing. okay...and they're charging you the 1/6th of the price of the full game for it.

that's like three ****slaps across our faces.

to Bioware, people who pay $60 are fake fans who deserve an incomplete game. peopel who pay them $70-$80 are true fans and deserve a complete game. now, in the future, people who WILL pay an additional $10-$20 on top of the $70-$80 will become uber true fans, because they get a complete game and more! huuuurrraaaayyy for life!

So let me see if I can make an allegory out of your argument:

A car with four wheels, a four cylinder engine, leather seats, and A/C can cost as little as $10,000. But a motorcycle with half the number of wheels, half the size of an engine, a single cushion, and no kind of climate control can cost the same amount as the car. By your logic, the bike SHOULD cost $5,000, perhaps even less than that.

It's a horrible comparison, but my point is that all products have a minimum cost before that cost begins to rise due to the increase in value of the product (i.e. more content). Mike has already explained that the DLC project has been separate from the main portion of the game, as it had been planned to be prior to any actual production. Therefore, the value of the DLC is separate from the value of the primary product.

It seems clear to me that you have chosen not to believe the moderators written words however, so forgive me if I fear my words are falling upon deaf ears.

....eyes. Whatever.

[neubourn]

Draconis6666 wrote...

GuyIncognito21 wrote...

alterIncogn1T0 wrote...
The gaming market is a lot like the automotive industry: there's a certain base price for manufacturing the core vehicle (engine, wheels, seats, etc.), and with each add-on, there is a slow and steady increase in price (power windows, heated seats, etc.).

The analogy works just fine, but the fight is about where this DLC falls in those categories you set up.

The apologists seem to think the tale of the protheans is a heated seat and the critics (like me) regard the prothean narrative as part of the core.

YOu regard it as core to the lore, the third game could absolutly never even mention the protheans at all the entire time and by your argument the prothean would still be absolutly critical and without him the game is non-functional simply because the protheans are an important lore element of the universe that has been mentione din other games. 

Do you honestly not see the fallacy of this argument?

Its like saying that the entire plot of Star Wars A New Hope doesnt make sense because the Emperor is a key lore element but you never see him in the movie so without him the entire movie doesnt make sense.

Even if something is important to lore, it still doesnt mean people are entitled to it.

Take the Liara and the Lair of the Shadow Broker DLC. That parallels this in many ways...like the protheans, the Shadow Broker was a mystery, something mentioned since ME1, important to lore. Also, there were audio files on the disc that pretty much predicted there would be a DLC regarding Liara and the SB. Just like their are on the demo predicting Prothy. 

But...was LotSB essential for completing ME2? No.
Was it an important story/lore. Of course. 

So...just because something is important to lore, does NOT mean people should be entitled to it, or you "HAVE" to have it to finish the game. That just simply is false reasoning. 

[Draconis6666]

Yuoaman wrote...

I'm not saying the game won't make any sense without Javik, I'm saying that the game is only rewarding us with this information if we hand over more money, rather than just by sticking with the game.

It could just as easily not give it to you at all and you would never learn any of that information to begin with, the argument goes both ways. You complain that you have to pay to recieve it but there is no reason they have to give it to you at all.

[AkiKishi]

Draconis6666 wrote...

fatalmaverick wrote...

Yeah appealing to emotion or pity is usually the first sign someone is lying. He's completely dodging the question/comments made here today.

I would too, everytime they have made an attempt to answer them people just tell them they are lying or completely ignore them.

Read my sig , you really think they don't lie ? Funny how they only noticed auto attack was missing the night before DA2 was released.

[AlanC9]

rumbalumba wrote...

the one i don't understand, is that why was Shale from Dragon Age Origins a free day 1 DLC for NEW copies of the game but somehow this Prothean isn't?

Dragon Age had Warden's Keep as unfree day 1 DLC

[GuyIncognito21]

pilot2969 wrote...
And you agreed on the price of the product at $60.00, knowing full well in advance that you were opting out of the additional mission and character that was included in the $80.00 version. That's not a bait and switch, just because you didn't know the details of what the DLC would be doesn't mean you were ripped off. 

In your analogy you opted for the $10,000.00 car with a V-6 instead of the $15,000.00 car with a mystery engine, and you're angry because it was just announced that the mystery engine was a V-8. They're not selling you the car and then charging extra for the engine, you just didn't perform due diligence on your part prior to agreeing to the deal.

Except this series has a history of such "mysteries" on launch, and never before have they involved things central to the plot.

And if everything is on the up and up, why wasn't this information released months ago?  If I'm to take them at their world that this little XBL thing really was a leak and not intentional, then it appears we'd have gone right up to launch without being told what we were buying.

That's just weird.

[AlanC9]

fatalmaverick wrote...

WOW, I just listened to the Prothean dialogue, it is so clearly interwoven into the story! How can anyone accept this?

Guess that means the DLC might be worth the $10?

[alterIncogn1T0]

GuyIncognito21 wrote...

alterIncogn1T0 wrote...
The gaming market is a lot like the automotive industry: there's a certain base price for manufacturing the core vehicle (engine, wheels, seats, etc.), and with each add-on, there is a slow and steady increase in price (power windows, heated seats, etc.).

The analogy works just fine, but the fight is about where this DLC falls in those categories you set up.

The apologists seem to think the tale of the protheans is a heated seat and the critics (like me) regard the prothean narrative as part of the core.

I'm actually of the opinion that the DLC is a totally different car.

[hangmans tree]

I wouldnt have problem with dlc may it be a dollar or 100 dollars. Was it produced prior or after certification - desnt matter. Its BW game and content they can sell it whicheveer they like. I have a will of my own and am capable of making informed and conscious decisions - ergo I dont buy what I find unworthy of my interest and money.

But...

... I want to understand. Ppl dug up prothean dialogue, which is present in the demo, correct? Dev is saying the content was produced after the game went for certification. Correct? How on eart did it occur that the dialogue was recorded prior to dlc production? Seems to me that's a lie.

Please explain.

[heart again]

titusrsoooooo1337 wrote...

You are already making $60-80 a copy .

Really?  I didn't know retailers, distributors and manufacturers were all charity.