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Mass Effect 3: From Ashes


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#2626
neubourn

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LivingHitokiri wrote...

You talk about assumptions which make no sense while im talking and stating facts about a game and the story that develops around it..

What you say makes no sense,no,im not using the logic you want me to look to use,thats yours alone.
They should never release such an important part of the story/plot as DLC. I have no problem if they give me something totally irrelevant like they did with Kasumi and Zaeed, they where both a nice addition to the game.
Bringing a living Prothean that goes all against the story's direction of their distinction is a different thing.Having a prothean alive it could bring tons of things into the story/plot rather bringing another Zaeed or Kasumi at this point of the game.

EA shows that they use a famous and important figure of the game in order to make money as sole focus, not to make another addition to the game that will work different/side/parallel story.

I have no problem them releasing DLC in general but not these kind of DLC just because it will draw a bigger attention to the fanbase due to its importance to the series.



And this is the point....you guys dont care if content is "irrelevant" but if that content is something you WANT, you think you should be "entitled" to it, which you are not. 

If it is that important to you, then you are free to purchase it and have it add to your gaming experience. Thats how business works...if there is DEMAND for a product, then there is no reason why they shouldnt CHARGE for it. 

Ive used this analogy a few times already...Liara and LotSB. That also was planned from the inception of ME2. that also was important to ME lore. And yet people bought it anyway. The only difference was when they bought it. If you believe content is worth having, then you should expect to pay for it, instead of feeling entitled to it. 

#2627
GuyIncognito21

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neubourn wrote...
And "What matters is that they're charging extra money for something that should be in the game to begin with" is also faulty logic, since it isnt up to US what should or shouldnt be in the game...that is up to BW. Just because YOU think it should be, doesnt mean BW should have put it in. 


Of course it's up to us, it's our money!  If I decide Bioware gets my money, they get it.  If I decide they don't they don't.  It's not for them to decide, it's for me and me alone to decide.

If I don't like what you leave out of your game, I'm not going to pay you for it.  And I'll probably go on your forums and try to get you to see the error of your ways too.

#2628
DifferentD17

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Draconis6666 wrote...

rumbalumba wrote...
you wanna know why most people do not agree with your point? because most people =/= you. you just answered it yourself.


It must be nice to be able to speak for MOST people, do you get a cool title and awesome sallary for being the mouthpiece for millions of people?


MOST people don't know about this, and MOST people wouldn't want to spend $10 on something they took out of the game just to make more money. It's like taking 1 or 2 episodes out of a TV season and charging seperate for them.

#2629
Draconis6666

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rumbalumba wrote...

Draconis6666 wrote...

rumbalumba wrote...
you wanna know why most people do not agree with your point? because most people =/= you. you just answered it yourself.


It must be nice to be able to speak for MOST people, do you get a cool title and awesome sallary for being the mouthpiece for millions of people?


you are either blind or illiterate. just read this 90+ page thread. i only see your name and other two duds defending this.

and for that, you get a cookie. 


This entire thread and everyone in it is not even remotely enough people to claim MOST people either. There are millions of consumers who will consider if they will buy this game and the DLC or not and probably under a hundred in this thread that is by no means most.

#2630
AlanC9

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GuyIncognito21 wrote...

The fact that they're a huge part of this entire narrative.


Sure, but... so what? Either the protheans are a completely extinct species, or there's one prothean left. Granted, it'd be interesting to talk to a prothean, but at the end of the day he's not going to change anything significant. Shepard's still gotta win this war.

(Easy for me to say, of course, since I never liked the idea of a prothean squadmate in the first place)

#2631
GuyIncognito21

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Draconis6666 wrote...
Its not your decision what should be in the game if you want to make that decision go make your own game, your basicaly saying "you should have either delayed the game and added this in or cut something else during development so I could have this" simply because you want the character and dont want to pay for it


No, I'm basically saying "don't antagonize me or I'm not paying for your game."  And instead of gaining $70 from me, they'll lose $60.

That's a $130 swing by my math, and it absolutely is my decision.

#2632
Kreidian

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El Ejcovero wrote...

Draconis6666 wrote...

El Ejcovero wrote...

Once again for those who don't get what the problem is, and no, we are not alright with this in any game past, present or future, and we have to draw the line someplace, here:
Posted Image


Except once again your argument is flawed and fails before it begins because it implies something that you have no proof of and are just guessing is the case, mostly because you have no concept of how game development works but think you do and have decided that how you think it works has to be the case so this must be true.


AND AGAIN I ANSWER YOU THE EXACT SAME WAY. THE CONTENT EXISTS, THEREFORE IT SHOULD BE IN THE GAME. Leaving things out to sell as DLC so you pay for it is unacceptable, this is not speculation, this is fact.


And again this just proves that you have no concept or clue of how real game development actually works or why DLC content is so much different then shipping game disks.

#2633
Rockworm503

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DifferentD17 wrote...

Draconis6666 wrote...

rumbalumba wrote...
you wanna know why most people do not agree with your point? because most people =/= you. you just answered it yourself.


It must be nice to be able to speak for MOST people, do you get a cool title and awesome sallary for being the mouthpiece for millions of people?


MOST people don't know about this, and MOST people wouldn't want to spend $10 on something they took out of the game just to make more money. It's like taking 1 or 2 episodes out of a TV season and charging seperate for them.


You're wasting your time.  Draconis would call it entitlement if we thought Bioware was being unfair charging us 200 dollars for the DLC.

#2634
rumbalumba

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GuyIncognito21 wrote...

neubourn wrote...
And "What matters is that they're charging extra money for something that should be in the game to begin with" is also faulty logic, since it isnt up to US what should or shouldnt be in the game...that is up to BW. Just because YOU think it should be, doesnt mean BW should have put it in. 


Of course it's up to us, it's our money!  If I decide Bioware gets my money, they get it.  If I decide they don't they don't.  It's not for them to decide, it's for me and me alone to decide.

If I don't like what you leave out of your game, I'm not going to pay you for it.  And I'll probably go on your forums and try to get you to see the error of your ways too.


exactly. if all people cancelled their pre-order, then would it still be up to Bioware if they include the damn thing or not? yeah, i thought so.

we dictate this game's fate, not Bioware. and i love how some idiots fail to see that.

#2635
G3rman

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BobSmith101 wrote...
It makes no difference what he does, he's a Prothean. The reason Shepard started this in the first place. The thing Liaras been looking for for half a century and thats not important?


Being a Prothean is just being a prothean, they were victims of reaper attack and were the dominant group from the last cycle.  Liara is after them because she was an archaeoligist, that was her job/passion.

No where has it said Protheans hold the key to galactic saving, they were defeated.  

What about him are you expecting to be so major?  I've seen his words, he talks about the war and some about his people, but he isn't an all knowing being.

If all you can say is "He's prothean that means something" is not a valid argument, that's like saying I'm human so I'm special.

#2636
Warrgh

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1) MONETIZING DAY 1 DLC
That's all well and good, BioWare, but you completely miss the point. Fact remains that you have blatantly changed your business model. With your past games, the day 1 DLC has been a reward for anyone who legitimately purchased your game (which is fair imo), or even in the "worse" cases at least still available for anyone who pre-ordered your game.

With Mass Effect 3, this is not the case in the slightest. You are taking this actual piece of gameplay content and making it a Collector's Edition thing, thereby not only attempting to change the very industry definition of what a Collector's Edition constitutes (those usually provide a variety of out-of-game assets and only cosmetic things or simple items, if anything, inside the game), but also changing your business model in a way that directly attempts to get more money of your customers for the same type of content that you have previously provided as tokens of goodwill.

You have gone from providing day 1 DLC complimentarily as an incentive for people not to pirate or to pre-order your game, to blatantly monetizing it in an attempt to make people pay $10-20 more for the same type of content that they have gotten for free with your products in the past. And you wonder why people are getting pissed?

In this industry, you can't expect to change your business model in such an obvious manner from one game to the next, and not be met with outrage and the boycott that's building up around you as we speak. I imagine that many people were already growing wary of seeing new ME3 cross-promotions involving various (though, to be fair, lesser and hence more acceptable) in-game rewards being announced on a semimonthly basis. And now this on top?

I can assure you that the moment people start to feel like they're being jerked around by a greedy corporation who is trying to nickle and dime them for the same content that they have gotten free of charge for being legitimate customers in the past, they will cease being legitimate customers. Either by boycotting your product or by simply pirating it. Let's leave the question of whether the piracy can be justified out of this discussion, because that's besides the point - the point being, it will happen. As Gabe Newell from Valve puts it, piracy is a service problem - and you are trying to start charging money for a service (day 1 DLC) that you have provided freely to people for supporting your company in the past.


2) NATURE OF THE CONTENT
Now that I've dealt with the monetary implications and the concerns about the shifting business model, I think it's time to have a look at the actual content of the DLC, as I believe this is a key part of the issue. However, this is much more of a subjective observation than the points raised under 1), so feel free to regard it with less gravity that you would the prior section.

Let me try to be concise. We're dealing with a mother[beep]ing Prothean here. You know, the mythical, legendary aliens of ancient times that you've spent the past two games hyping up. Not only are they integral to the plot of the Mass Effect games, having played a major part in the storyline of both Mass Effect 1 and 2, a Prothean beacon being the primary reason Shepard stood out in the first place - they're at the very heart of the lore of the franchise.

Again, to reiterate; this is not another Zaheed. This is not another Shale. This is not another Lost Prince. We're dealing with a mother[beep]ing Prothean here. I honestly do not understand how on earth you, as a company who rightfully prides itself on delivering immersive and story-driven gaming experiences, would expect to release this incredibly story-driven and unique character as DLC in the first place, especially when you then also try to make people pay extra for it.


3) IN CONCLUSION
I hope this post has helped BioWare better comprehend people's outrage, and understand how they are about to lose a whole lot of business over this affair. The situation is blowing up around you. Totalbiscuit's video on the matter has received over 20,000 likes in less than 16 hours (and on youtube, that'll probably turn out to equal about 500,000-1,000,000 actual views). There are large threads (1, 2) on reddit with thousands of people expressing their outrage and encouraging a boycott. The gaming press is starting to pick up on it. BioWare, you are making a lot of customers upset.

Frankly, this is becoming a PR nightmare. It's time to go into damage control mode. How you deal with it is naturally up to yourself, but personally I would humbly suggest that you make the Prothean DLC available for free to anyone who preorders the game. That way, you can still make money off it, but at least without being as offensive.

Personally, as things stand, I will not be purchasing this game. This hurts me to say, as I've been playing BioWare's games avidly in the past. I was willing to put up with it being an Origin exclusive with no Steam version. I was willing to put up with the seeming cash cow state of milking this last game in the trilogy with the numerous cross-promotions for in-game rewards. I enjoyed the demo a whole lot and was genuinely looking forward to release. But I have to draw the line somewhere, and I feel I would be amiss if I let my personal wants stand over the potential future of the industry and, more particularly, where BioWare moves as a company.

I will not be pirating the game. I don't want to give you more leverage to use against your legitimate customers. But I will be boycotting it unless you change your approach to this DLC.

BioWare, the time has come to decide if causing a massive outcry, angering tens of thousands of previously legitimate and loyal customers and losing a correspondingly large amount of potential revenue is worth this blatant attempt to monetize your day 1 DLC. I can only hope that you do what's right for your customers, for yourself, and for the industry at large.

- W

#2637
Draconis6666

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DifferentD17 wrote...

MOST people don't know about this, and MOST people wouldn't want to spend $10 on something they took out of the game just to make more money. It's like taking 1 or 2 episodes out of a TV season and charging seperate for them.


but nothign was taken out just to make money you are simply claiming that they did which doesnt make it true. You are saying that most people will think as you do which is an arrogant statement to make and implies that you have a concept how millions of other people will decide given the same information as you.

#2638
heart again

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I actually thought the CE bonus character and mission would be lame and pointless. Damn you for not making it so, Bioware! And damn you for giving people who didn't get the CE a chance to get it anyway!

#2639
DifferentD17

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Draconis6666 wrote...

GuyIncognito21 wrote...

None of that is relevant.  Whether they planned ahead doesn't matter.  What matters is that they're charging extra money for something that should be in the game to begin with.


Its not your decision what should be in the game if you want to make that decision go make your own game, your basicaly saying "you should have either delayed the game and added this in or cut something else during development so I could have this" simply because you want the character and dont want to pay for it


Is that your answer for everyone? It's not your right, it's not your decision, they don't owe you anything, you're not entitled to anything in a game that almost lets you make your own story.
They did delay the game, and we already know it's done, why not put the DLC in the game?

#2640
neubourn

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GuyIncognito21 wrote...

neubourn wrote...
And "What matters is that they're charging extra money for something that should be in the game to begin with" is also faulty logic, since it isnt up to US what should or shouldnt be in the game...that is up to BW. Just because YOU think it should be, doesnt mean BW should have put it in. 


Of course it's up to us, it's our money!  If I decide Bioware gets my money, they get it.  If I decide they don't they don't.  It's not for them to decide, it's for me and me alone to decide.

If I don't like what you leave out of your game, I'm not going to pay you for it.  And I'll probably go on your forums and try to get you to see the error of your ways too.


And thats fine...vote with your wallet. Dont buy the game, that will send a louder message then any forum post will. But just dont act like you entitled to free content, it doesnt work that way. People were paying $60 for the game on the disc, and thats what BW is going to give you. Just because the content is something you guys WANT, doesnt mean it "shouldve been on the disc." Thats just rationalizing why you should get it for free. 

#2641
fropas

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rumbalumba wrote...

fropas wrote...


I didn't even ask a question. . .I don't care if people don't "equal" me. I have a CE, so I get this content already. Good thing I have a mommy who loves me! God it must suck to be you :)


you go on the internet saying "it's just $10 why are you crying about it".


wow, what a mature grownup you are, talking about money like it's nothing. oh right, your mommy's credit card paid it for you so you don't care. brilliant.:D


Well it is nothing to me I have a job and I haven't bought a new release in over a year. I have a lot of money to spend on games, because I don't buy them often. . .and I was joking about my mommy's credit card. My mom hasn't bought me a game in years. 80$ a year on video games is nothing when college tuition is 5000$ a semester. . .but that's just me.

Maybe you have financial issues, I don't know. Sounds like you're complaining about nothing to me, but even if my mommy was paying for the game it wouldn't change anything. I still get the prothy with my CE :) so Im happy regardless. I'm sorry you're so misrable :)

#2642
LGTX

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So the problem here is:

A, People don't believe Bioware created this thing after the game went gold;
B. People don't believe the Prothean is irrelevant to the main plot;
C. People want to argue effective business strategies on a Bioware forum.

I guess that's it for me in this thread...

#2643
rumbalumba

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Draconis6666 wrote...

rumbalumba wrote...

Draconis6666 wrote...

rumbalumba wrote...
you wanna know why most people do not agree with your point? because most people =/= you. you just answered it yourself.


It must be nice to be able to speak for MOST people, do you get a cool title and awesome sallary for being the mouthpiece for millions of people?


you are either blind or illiterate. just read this 90+ page thread. i only see your name and other two duds defending this.

and for that, you get a cookie. 


This entire thread and everyone in it is not even remotely enough people to claim MOST people either. There are millions of consumers who will consider if they will buy this game and the DLC or not and probably under a hundred in this thread that is by no means most.


yes because i can assume that MOST people are idiots and would gladly swallow what Bioware would feed them, right? :D

kinda like spending time doing this crap:
http://petition.masseffect.com/ 

oh, did the DLC team put all their hearts into completing this before release date too?

#2644
GuyIncognito21

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neubourn wrote...
And thats fine...vote with your wallet. Dont buy the game, that will send a louder message then any forum post will. But just dont act like you entitled to free content, it doesnt work that way. People were paying $60 for the game on the disc, and thats what BW is going to give you. Just because the content is something you guys WANT, doesnt mean it "shouldve been on the disc." Thats just rationalizing why you should get it for free. 


That's gibberish.  I'm not getting anything for free, I'm paying $60, and for that $60 I expect (and am reasonable in expecting) a complete game.

If Madden only comes with 31 teams next year, and the 32nd is $10 DLC, are you going to say "well, you paid for the game on the disc and that's what you got?"

Talk about rationalizing.  On that logic, the ME3 disc could just be an MP3 that says "Sucker" over and over again and you'll be OK with that because it's what you paid for?

#2645
AkiKishi

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rumbalumba wrote...

GuyIncognito21 wrote...

neubourn wrote...
And "What matters is that they're charging extra money for something that should be in the game to begin with" is also faulty logic, since it isnt up to US what should or shouldnt be in the game...that is up to BW. Just because YOU think it should be, doesnt mean BW should have put it in. 


Of course it's up to us, it's our money!  If I decide Bioware gets my money, they get it.  If I decide they don't they don't.  It's not for them to decide, it's for me and me alone to decide.

If I don't like what you leave out of your game, I'm not going to pay you for it.  And I'll probably go on your forums and try to get you to see the error of your ways too.


exactly. if all people cancelled their pre-order, then would it still be up to Bioware if they include the damn thing or not? yeah, i thought so.

we dictate this game's fate, not Bioware. and i love how some idiots fail to see that.


Well it's possible this will be a "failure" since EA are looking for the AC,CoD type numbers from this title not the 2-3 million. It really depends what the finished game is like. If it's like the demo, then it will probably fail. If it's more polished than the demo and gets good reviews (beyond the places EA usually pays off) then boycotting won't do a thing,you might hurt their bottom line a bit ,but not much else.

The game is simply too mainstream to hold to ransom in that way.

#2646
Draconis6666

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GuyIncognito21 wrote...

Draconis6666 wrote...
Its not your decision what should be in the game if you want to make that decision go make your own game, your basicaly saying "you should have either delayed the game and added this in or cut something else during development so I could have this" simply because you want the character and dont want to pay for it


No, I'm basically saying "don't antagonize me or I'm not paying for your game."  And instead of gaining $70 from me, they'll lose $60.

That's a $130 swing by my math, and it absolutely is my decision.


Yes it is but it doesnt make your opinon any more right than someone who believes otherwise its your personal belief as a consumer and is not any reason to think they should do what you want. If you dont want to pay them then dont, send them a letter explainign that you wil not be buying their game and explain your reasons for doing so. Do not then sit around expecting that because you have done so they will suddeny go "well ok if its like that we're sorry here is what you wanted" Ranting on the forums is not a mature means of showing your displeasure with a product or a company's business practices.

#2647
NubXL

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I've never understood where defenders of cut content DLC, of any importance, get the idea that it's somehow a matter of intense, unreasonable entitlement that the other side are guilty of. Was the old way of shipping games complete somehow unfair to developers? I don't want to game in a world where fracturing a release for extra profit is the accepted norm. It's sickening to see that there are some who will defend this to the death, and I assume they're not even working for these companies. It's like a bad case of abusive boyfriend syndrome.

"You don't know BioWare like I do! His game is complete when we're alone!"

#2648
corporal doody

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heart again wrote...

I actually thought the CE bonus character and mission would be lame and pointless. Damn you for not making it so, Bioware! And damn you for giving people who didn't get the CE a chance to get it anyway!


i sorta agree.

giving it away for free would basically be a F U to those of us that got the CE. it would devalue the purchase imho.


BW biggest mistake was TELLING the community that they were listening and adjusting based off of feedback from the community (usually the loudest minority...look at garrus and tali fans). NOW everyone wants to ****** and moan hopeing BW listens to them...than they get indignant when BW doesnt listen....THAN THEY SPREAD HATE AND DISCONTENT!!!

in this case.....SHOULD HAVE GOT THE CE WHEN YOU HAD THE CHANCE! now you have the OPTION .....OPTION of purchasing the DLC!!!1 if you dont want to pay..DONT PAY. wanna cancel your preorder... SEE YOU!  

#2649
Draconis6666

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GuyIncognito21 wrote...

That's gibberish.  I'm not getting anything for free, I'm paying $60, and for that $60 I expect (and am reasonable in expecting) a complete game.

If Madden only comes with 31 teams next year, and the 32nd is $10 DLC, are you going to say "well, you paid for the game on the disc and that's what you got?"

Talk about rationalizing.  On that logic, the ME3 disc could just be an MP3 that says "Sucker" over and over again and you'll be OK with that because it's what you paid for?


Your getting a complete game though, what your arguing for is more like paying for Madden and then complaining that there isnt a free optional 33rd team that they created that you think you should have because it interests you.

#2650
FyreSyder

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G3rman wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...
It makes no difference what he does, he's a Prothean. The reason Shepard started this in the first place. The thing Liaras been looking for for half a century and thats not important?


Being a Prothean is just being a prothean, they were victims of reaper attack and were the dominant group from the last cycle.  Liara is after them because she was an archaeoligist, that was her job/passion.

No where has it said Protheans hold the key to galactic saving, they were defeated.  

What about him are you expecting to be so major?  I've seen his words, he talks about the war and some about his people, but he isn't an all knowing being.

If all you can say is "He's prothean that means something" is not a valid argument, that's like saying I'm human so I'm special.


You really pride yourself on knowing everything about the story because you read the script or heard some audio don't you?