13369 réponses à ce sujet

[DifferentD17]

Draconis6666 wrote...

but nothign was taken out just to make money you are simply claiming that they did which doesnt make it true. You are saying that most people will think as you do which is an arrogant statement to make and implies that you have a concept how millions of other people will decide given the same information as you.

It's not arrogant to say people don't like to spend money. YOU CLAIMING THEY DIDN'T DOESN'T MAKE IT TRUE EITHER. IT IS DAY 1 DLC which implies it was ready before they shipped the game.

[Rockworm503]

neubourn wrote...

GuyIncognito21 wrote...

neubourn wrote...
And "What matters is that they're charging extra money for something that should be in the game to begin with" is also faulty logic, since it isnt up to US what should or shouldnt be in the game...that is up to BW. Just because YOU think it should be, doesnt mean BW should have put it in. 

Of course it's up to us, it's our money!  If I decide Bioware gets my money, they get it.  If I decide they don't they don't.  It's not for them to decide, it's for me and me alone to decide.

If I don't like what you leave out of your game, I'm not going to pay you for it.  And I'll probably go on your forums and try to get you to see the error of your ways too.

And thats fine...vote with your wallet. Dont buy the game, that will send a louder message then any forum post will. But just dont act like you entitled to free content, it doesnt work that way. People were paying $60 for the game on the disc, and thats what BW is going to give you. Just because the content is something you guys WANT, doesnt mean it "shouldve been on the disc." Thats just rationalizing why you should get it for free. 

Its so funny how its called entitlement.
There was a time when it was just the right thing to do not to charge.
Now we're entitled for expecting it.

[Brian.V3]

It will take more than just a conspiracy theory to turn me away from BioWare.

Cause that is what seems to be the ongoing complaint is. Why make us pay extra for something that should have been part of the main game in the beginning? Is the argument fans have here.

At the end of it all while adding the Prothean as a "squad mate" and revisiting Eden Prime is awesome I don't think it's nothing but complete FAN SERVICE. There lies the big issue. What do they really serve when it comes to fighting the reapers? Prothean's got enslaved and pretty much got wiped out. Unless they are gonna teach us how to cower and die. There's nothing really there but fan service.

[GuyIncognito21]

Draconis6666 wrote...

Your getting a complete game though

That's the disagreement, isn't it?  You can talk until your avatar is blue in the face and you're not going to convince me that the protheans are not part of this story, especially not when Bioware is asking me for $10 precisely because the protheans ARE part of the story.

[neubourn]

GuyIncognito21 wrote...

neubourn wrote...
And thats fine...vote with your wallet. Dont buy the game, that will send a louder message then any forum post will. But just dont act like you entitled to free content, it doesnt work that way. People were paying $60 for the game on the disc, and thats what BW is going to give you. Just because the content is something you guys WANT, doesnt mean it "shouldve been on the disc." Thats just rationalizing why you should get it for free. 

That's gibberish.  I'm not getting anything for free, I'm paying $60, and for that $60 I expect (and am reasonable in expecting) a complete game.

If Madden only comes with 31 teams next year, and the 32nd is $10 DLC, are you going to say "well, you paid for the game on the disc and that's what you got?"

Talk about rationalizing.  On that logic, the ME3 disc could just be an MP3 that says "Sucker" over and over again and you'll be OK with that because it's what you paid for?

And you are assuming you WONT be getting a complete game. Where does it say you MUST have this DLC for it to be a "Complete" game. 

Now we are into semantics.

Lets use Zaeed as example....does having Zaeed make ME2 a complete game? Does knowing his backstory about the Blue Suns make it "complete?" 

What about Kasumi? Shadow Broker? Arrival?

We can go all day about what makes a "complete" game...and when its an RPG, its a pointless endeavor since pretty much ANY DLC expands the game and the Lore. and you usually have to pay for every single piece. 

[Empiro]

neubourn wrote...
And this is the point....you guys dont care if content is "irrelevant" but if that content is something you WANT, you think you should be "entitled" to it, which you are not. 

If it is that important to you, then you are free to purchase it and have it add to your gaming experience. Thats how business works...if there is DEMAND for a product, then there is no reason why they shouldnt CHARGE for it. 

Ive used this analogy a few times already...Liara and LotSB. That also was planned from the inception of ME2. that also was important to ME lore. And yet people bought it anyway. The only difference was when they bought it. If you believe content is worth having, then you should expect to pay for it, instead of feeling entitled to it. 

There was a time when Bioware released free patches and content even years after the games came out. It made them stand out above other developers, and turned me into a loyal supporter.

I don't think I'm suffering from a sense of entitlement when I bemoan the fact that they've gone from company that goes the extra mile for its fans to one that -- as you say it your self, tries to charge money from me whereever they can.

[Draconis6666]

NubXL wrote...

I've never understood where defenders of cut content DLC, of any importance, get the idea that it's somehow a matter of intense, unreasonable entitlement that the other side are guilty of. Was the old way of shipping games complete somehow unfair to developers? I don't want to game in a world where fracturing a release for extra profit is the accepted norm. It's sickening to see that there are some who will defend this to the death, and I assume they're not even working for these companies. It's like a bad case of abusive boyfriend syndrome.

"You don't know BioWare like I do! His game is complete when we're alone!"

 Games never shipped complete before, they shipped with tons of cut content that you simply never saw at all because DLC didnt exist. You are simply suggesting that because now developers have a means to provide that cut content to you that they are obviously not giving you completed games and cutting conent for profit which is a flawed argument because it implies that before that was an option they never cut anything from games when they did. They cut mountians of content because they were forced to meet deadlines because their only means of revenue to recoop their production costs was sales of the game itself.

[fropas]

GuyIncognito21 wrote...

Draconis6666 wrote...

Your getting a complete game though

That's the disagreement, isn't it?  You can talk until your avatar is blue in the face and you're not going to convince me that the protheans are not part of this story, especially not when Bioware is asking me for $10 precisely because the protheans ARE part of the story.

The protheans are still in your story you just don't get to use one for 60$. . .

[foo man chew]

I like mas effect as much as anybody.But I dont understand how people can defend this.Its day one dlc you cant tell me it wasnt in the game and cut to make a quick buck.What about the trial that got cut everybodies been talking about?You mean to tell me they had to cut that but had time to create dlc for day 1.Its just greed plain and simple.

[Draconis6666]

GuyIncognito21 wrote...

Draconis6666 wrote...

Your getting a complete game though

That's the disagreement, isn't it?  You can talk until your avatar is blue in the face and you're not going to convince me that the protheans are not part of this story, especially not when Bioware is asking me for $10 precisely because the protheans ARE part of the story.

Then again dont pay them and go wirte them a letter explaining your dis statisfaction like a responsible consumer dont rant on the forums about it and expect it to actually get you something.

[corporal doody]

Draconis6666 wrote...

GuyIncognito21 wrote...

Draconis6666 wrote...

Your getting a complete game though

That's the disagreement, isn't it?  You can talk until your avatar is blue in the face and you're not going to convince me that the protheans are not part of this story, especially not when Bioware is asking me for $10 precisely because the protheans ARE part of the story.

Then again dont pay them and go wirte them a letter explaining your dis statisfaction like a responsible consumer dont rant on the forums about it and expect it to actually get you something.

an art form that has been dying for years now. They dont even teach this in school anymore.

[AlanC9]

FyreSyder wrote...

G3rman wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...
It makes no difference what he does, he's a Prothean. The reason Shepard started this in the first place. The thing Liaras been looking for for half a century and thats not important?

Being a Prothean is just being a prothean, they were victims of reaper attack and were the dominant group from the last cycle.  Liara is after them because she was an archaeoligist, that was her job/passion.

No where has it said Protheans hold the key to galactic saving, they were defeated.  

What about him are you expecting to be so major?  I've seen his words, he talks about the war and some about his people, but he isn't an all knowing being.

If all you can say is "He's prothean that means something" is not a valid argument, that's like saying I'm human so I'm special.

You really pride yourself on knowing everything about the story because you read the script or heard some audio don't you?

He's just thinking straight. Since the prothean character is DLC, he can't possibly be important to winning the war. And we already know everything important about the protheans except for whatever deus ex machina Bio's going to introduce to make ME3 winnable.

[GuyIncognito21]

neubourn wrote...
And you are assuming you WONT be getting a complete game. Where does it say you MUST have this DLC for it to be a "Complete" game. 

I'm saying it.  To you.  Right now.

Lets use Zaeed as example....does having Zaeed make ME2 a complete game?

No.

Does knowing his backstory about the Blue Suns make it "complete?"

No.

What about Kasumi?

No.

Shadow Broker? 

No.

Arrival?

That's a much closer call, but I've seen no evidence to suggest they could have shipped it with the game in the first place.  And because I'm assuming that ME3 covers the aspects of the narrative that are in play in Arrival, it's not all that important I suppose.

We can go all day about what makes a "complete" game...and when its an RPG, its a pointless endeavor since pretty much ANY DLC expands the game and the Lore. and you usually have to pay for every single piece. 

No, you usually don't.  How many games (ESPECIALLY RPGs) ship with free DLC these days?  Wasn't Zaeed free?

[NubXL]

Draconis6666 wrote...

NubXL wrote...

I've never understood where defenders of cut content DLC, of any importance, get the idea that it's somehow a matter of intense, unreasonable entitlement that the other side are guilty of. Was the old way of shipping games complete somehow unfair to developers? I don't want to game in a world where fracturing a release for extra profit is the accepted norm. It's sickening to see that there are some who will defend this to the death, and I assume they're not even working for these companies. It's like a bad case of abusive boyfriend syndrome.

"You don't know BioWare like I do! His game is complete when we're alone!"

 Games never shipped complete before, they shipped with tons of cut content that you simply never saw at all because DLC didnt exist. You are simply suggesting that because now developers have a means to provide that cut content to you that they are obviously not giving you completed games and cutting conent for profit which is a flawed argument because it implies that before that was an option they never cut anything from games when they did. They cut mountians of content because they were forced to meet deadlines because their only means of revenue to recoop their production costs was sales of the game itself.

You're trying to claim that content falling on the cutting room floor is somehow the same thing as holding back content for profit.  The game was still complete because you couldn't get the edited content anywhere, ever.  I'm sure there's plenty of stuff that didn't make the cut in the whole ME trilogy that we'll never see, and we're not talking about those kinds of cuts.  You're really reaching here in your effort to defend.

[ilquaruxa]

I've read as many comments as I can, but I don't have time to read them all. Still, I'd like to weigh in.

On the one hand, I want to be fair to the brains behind M.E. that have delivered such a wonderful valuable piece of escapism.On the other hand, I find the delivery of the DL content to be morally contentious.

Before I explain why I find BW/EA actions morally offensive, I want to consider what we know about BW's thought process. They make two important claims. First, that the DL was always intended to be a separate package. Secondly, that they wanted to give "loyal fans" a chance further the Prothean plot line. Both of these claims are inductively weak and subject to negative criticism without more information. In regards to the first claim, we know from the leaked script that the Prothean character was already in development, and part of the main game (at least from the script). So why is it not being included in the full game? It seems that either BW has lied to us about the timeline of the From Ashes development or there is more to the story. We could ad hoc for BW and assume that we will see the Protheans regardless of our purchasing the DL content. We can give BW the benefit of the doubt and assume the latter. Is this the case? We don't know. With regard to the second claim, I can only interpret it as a slap to the face. You do not reward your followers by charging them. It doesn't matter if it's $10, $50 or 5 cents. You either say, "thanks, here's some free content, a token of our gratitude" or you leave option out of your marketing equation.

Please don't suggest that you're doing us all a favor by forcing us to pay for plot-line central content then say "your welcome, thanks for being our fan." That is incredibly insulting.

As a purchaser of all digital M.E. content, I don't think I'm being entitled either. If you would be charging $70 and justified the price increase saying, "look we know it's a lot more but here is all the extra stuff you'll be getting" I would find it at least morally permissible, because you would not have made either claim mentioned above.

I have a great appreciation and admiration for the creative artwork produced by BW. Thank you. The respect you have earned, however, is eroding away. Your justification and handling of vital artistic content is suspicious at best and morally offensive at worst. I find your actions morally contemptible because as artists you have a responsibility to your followers. You have a developed a relationship that has gone beyond simple monetary gain. This responsibility involves not abusing those who respect you by reducing them down to trivial economic means.

Bioware, have turned your relationship between yourselves and your followers from one of respect into one of an egregious and disgusting monetary game. Until a clear explanation is given or an apology given, I will not be buying any more of your artwork. How you proceed will dictate your failing moral reputation.

[DJBare]

Draconis6666 wrote...
Then again dont pay them and go wirte them a letter explaining your dis statisfaction like a responsible consumer dont rant on the forums about it and expect it to actually get you something.

And what precisely are you doing?, you've been pretty obssesive about this almost from the start, I've had some sleep and returned to see you still fighting the good fight for bioware.

[LivingHitokiri]

neubourn wrote...

LivingHitokiri wrote...

You talk about assumptions which make no sense while im talking and stating facts about a game and the story that develops around it..

What you say makes no sense,no,im not using the logic you want me to look to use,thats yours alone.
They should never release such an important part of the story/plot as DLC. I have no problem if they give me something totally irrelevant like they did with Kasumi and Zaeed, they where both a nice addition to the game.
Bringing a living Prothean that goes all against the story's direction of their distinction is a different thing.Having a prothean alive it could bring tons of things into the story/plot rather bringing another Zaeed or Kasumi at this point of the game.

EA shows that they use a famous and important figure of the game in order to make money as sole focus, not to make another addition to the game that will work different/side/parallel story.

I have no problem them releasing DLC in general but not these kind of DLC just because it will draw a bigger attention to the fanbase due to its importance to the series.

And this is the point....you guys dont care if content is "irrelevant" but if that content is something you WANT, you think you should be "entitled" to it, which you are not. 

If it is that important to you, then you are free to purchase it and have it add to your gaming experience. Thats how business works...if there is DEMAND for a product, then there is no reason why they shouldnt CHARGE for it. 

Ive used this analogy a few times already...Liara and LotSB. That also was planned from the inception of ME2. that also was important to ME lore. And yet people bought it anyway. The only difference was when they bought it. If you believe content is worth having, then you should expect to pay for it, instead of feeling entitled to it. 

Because it affects your choice in total different way than including an important figurine as DLC,having a prothean as DLC pretty much screams out " that you dont get this you missing things from the GAME* and EA makes use of this exact thing.
Having Zaeed and kasumi that got their own stories irrelevant to the main plot but still interesting makes me CHOOSE if i want it in my addition to the MAIN game.
Nobody demanded  this hence the outrage proves it,nobody demands to get downgraded and rediculed by EA's greedy policy.
LTB is indeed a good addition but its a SIDE story,Shadow broker doesnt even comes close or even will in ME series as protheans do. it is not even fair to compare it.
Many people try to exclude the prothean importance by saying that they finished in ME 1 and ME 2,but, people forget that this is a TRILOGY , ME 3 as standalone is incomplete,ME 1,2,3 are all 1 story,not separated,games,not separated timelines,not separated sequels.

[blindchaos]

I have to ask, why is this only now an issue? We all knew that there would be a DLC character, because they were offering a Squad Mate and an accompanying mission with the CE. If this is about the principle then where was this thread in July?

I don't disagree that day 1 DLC is having a negative effect on the industry as a whole, but the timing makes me feel this is more about the race of the DLC crew member then the existence of day 1 DLC. I mean no offense by this, but if it's about the principle then shouldn't the race not make a difference, and shouldn't their be protests about having anything other then cosmetic skins be in the CE?

[GuyIncognito21]

Draconis6666 wrote...
Then again dont pay them and go wirte them a letter explaining your dis statisfaction like a responsible consumer dont rant on the forums about it and expect it to actually get you something.

Huh?  So you think writing a letter on paper and snail-mailing it to Bioware is a more effective means of communicating my dissatisfaction than discussing it on a forum on which the developers actively participate?

[quu-ukko]

I have bought every single Mass Effect game so far, some even for friends but I cannot and will not support this sort of moneygrab, so I WILL NOT BUY mass effect 3 as long as that DLC does not come as part of the game for all versions.

[AlanC9]

foo man chew wrote...

I like mas effect as much as anybody.But I dont understand how people can defend this.Its day one dlc you cant tell me it wasnt in the game and cut to make a quick buck.What about the trial that got cut everybodies been talking about?You mean to tell me they had to cut that but had time to create dlc for day 1.Its just greed plain and simple.

IIRC they cut the trial because it was unfun.

And saying that the prothean was "cut to make a quick buck" is confused. They were never going to make ME3 without something for a day 1 DLC.

[corporal doody]

MORALLY OFFENSIVE and UNETHICAL have been thrown AROUND alot in this topic. I Find THAT in itself OFFENSIVE!!!


for real people? i can understand some might be upset...but to go so far as to call it morally offensive (or corrupt) and unethical????!!!! they arent knowingly poisoning cows then trying to sell you the meat as hamburger patties!

freakin melodrama

Modifié par corporal doody, 23 février 2012 - 08:59 .

[Empiro]

neubourn wrote...

GuyIncognito21 wrote...

neubourn wrote...
And thats fine...vote with your wallet. Dont buy the game, that will send a louder message then any forum post will. But just dont act like you entitled to free content, it doesnt work that way. People were paying $60 for the game on the disc, and thats what BW is going to give you. Just because the content is something you guys WANT, doesnt mean it "shouldve been on the disc." Thats just rationalizing why you should get it for free. 

That's gibberish.  I'm not getting anything for free, I'm paying $60, and for that $60 I expect (and am reasonable in expecting) a complete game.

If Madden only comes with 31 teams next year, and the 32nd is $10 DLC, are you going to say "well, you paid for the game on the disc and that's what you got?"

Talk about rationalizing.  On that logic, the ME3 disc could just be an MP3 that says "Sucker" over and over again and you'll be OK with that because it's what you paid for?

And you are assuming you WONT be getting a complete game. Where does it say you MUST have this DLC for it to be a "Complete" game. 

Now we are into semantics.

Lets use Zaeed as example....does having Zaeed make ME2 a complete game? Does knowing his backstory about the Blue Suns make it "complete?" 

What about Kasumi? Shadow Broker? Arrival?

We can go all day about what makes a "complete" game...and when its an RPG, its a pointless endeavor since pretty much ANY DLC expands the game and the Lore. and you usually have to pay for every single piece. 

I'm with you on this. Heck, you could even take out Grunt (you didn't even need to let me our), Legion (same), and several other characters. ME 2 would still be a "complete" game.

I find it quite pointless to talk about "complete". A better word is "significant to the plot or lore". There, the Prothean beats out everything else. A Prothean artificat kinda drove the whole plot of ME1, and the collectors were the focus of ME2, so it's not even a close comparison.

[AkiKishi]

G3rman wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...
It makes no difference what he does, he's a Prothean. The reason Shepard started this in the first place. The thing Liaras been looking for for half a century and thats not important?

Being a Prothean is just being a prothean, they were victims of reaper attack and were the dominant group from the last cycle.  Liara is after them because she was an archaeoligist, that was her job/passion.

No where has it said Protheans hold the key to galactic saving, they were defeated.  

What about him are you expecting to be so major?  I've seen his words, he talks about the war and some about his people, but he isn't an all knowing being.

If all you can say is "He's prothean that means something" is not a valid argument, that's like saying I'm human so I'm special.

Right now your about as special as rock. If on the other hand you were the last human you would be quite special indeed.