13369 réponses à ce sujet

[corporal doody]

Kreidian wrote...

Michael Gamble wrote...

I've read all 96 pages of this thread. Contrary to popular thoughts, we really do care what you guys have to say.

Casey and I have explained how the development timeline on these DLC go, and in order to have our DLC flow with the main game, we do have to integrate the VO into certain places in the core product (Certain ME2 DLCs followed this same pattern). But there's a lot of work to crafting a great DLC, outside of the VO and script.

That said, i can tell you is that a team of of us poured our heart into this DLC after we had given all we could to finish the the ME3 game. We pushed hard because we wanted people to be able to experience this adventure on the first day, rather than day 30 or 60. We're proud of it, and if you choose to play it, I think you'll see that.

I really do appreciate every person who wants to give ME3 a chance (even if you're not happy with me right now!), and even without 'From Ashes' - I think you will be blown away.

Thanks for your support, and thanks for your feedback.

Mike

Hey Mike,

I just have to quote this and let you know that you still have a lot of support here. Those of us who understand what goes into making a DLC are really happy with all the work you've done and we're eager to get more DLC in the future from you guys!

We really do appreciate all the hard work you've done. Thank you!

i can dig it

[YourFunnyUncle]

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but here's the way I see it.

They developed a Prothean character to be a DLC character from the start, and included dialogue with him to better integrate him in the main game. This means that some of the development was done at the same time as the main game. It does not however mean that the whole DLC was done at the same time as the main game, just the stuff that would seamlessly integrate the character.

A huge part of the development of the DLC (basically the whole level design of the DLC mission) could easily have been completed after the rest of the game was completed as Bioware have said. It's actually a sensible use of resources if you think about it. People who would be twiddling their thumbs while the game is being tested, certified and sent for production can do something creative.

Whether this DLC should then be charged for is certainly an issue that is worthy of debate, but the fact that the greater part of the DLC could be produced after the rest of the game was done is not at odds with the fact that the character was integrated into the game from earlier.

[Avergain]

I also preorderd the N7edition, but not because of the dlc character, but the other nice assets.
And i really dislike the busines direction Bioware takes, because the decision to cut the prothian is bad from an ethical and commercial view.(yeah you willt got some extra bucks but the bad press will outweigh this) And Bioware earned a LOT of bad press in the past year ... Dragon Age 2, TOR. Mass Effect was the only franchise that was untainted till now. Everybody was ecxited but now ... they are digging their own grave.
But thats only my humble opion.
PS sorry for my not so good english (its not my native language)
PPS: Yay maybe  Baldurs Gate will come to Steam.

Modifié par Avergain, 23 février 2012 - 09:39 .

[foo man chew]

I think bw should sell alternate endings as dlc.I mean as long as the game ships with a ending then its alright to make people pay for better endings right.Only if their day one dlc though because paying 60 dollars for a supposedly complete game isnt enough we need day one dlc that should of been in the game to try to price gouge our customers.

[wright1978]

As someone mentioned on the previous page Prothean really reminds me of Shale. First time round playing Origins i was intrigued by Golems and then reaslied there was a DLC Golem character i'd missed out on which added to the story.

[Kreidian]

Draconis6666 wrote...

El Ejcovero wrote...

I don't think anyone cares when the content was made, when the game was submitted, whatever, we live in the age of digital distribution, such trifling obstacles are easily overcome (day one patch, free day one DLC only free on day one), all I smell is a fan trying to justify something that is wrong. And actually DLC content a lot of times is actually content cut out from the design due to time constraints, the fact is it never got made, and they sell it later as an addition to the existing game. This is an ethical business practice. An unethical business practice is to have the content made, and finished before the release (it doesn't matter the hell when it was finished, this is still true as I said above, even if it was finished March 5), and sell it as an addon on release day, this is just money grubbing, it is good business, but unethical. Oh and trust me, those that feel as I do, won't pay the $60, remember what sparked all this? Some were boycotting? Remember? Did you even reading the opposing posts in that locked thread? 

See this is a sense of entitlement, because in the past companies have been nice enough to give you things that they finished after release for free you now believe that is your right and that not doing so is unethical when in fact it is their right to chose to do so or not and their right to chose to charge you for it or not. They can just as easily give you no option to obtain it at all and only sell you the base game, this is a bad buisness model for them because they lose out on sales of people who would very much like the additional content. The fact that in the past companies including Bioware have chosen to give you day 1 DLC as free content does not make it your right to recieve such content for free. It is not unethical at all, its an example of them deciding they no longer wish to give you things for free that they previously did. That is not an ethical violation, you can argue that it means they no longer care about you and no longer wish to reward you for buying their products by giving you free content but that does not make it unethical or in any way entitle you to it.

I read every post in locked thread and almost every opposing argument is essentialy the same and backed upon the same fallacies based upon either lack of knowledge of how game production works, lack of knowledge on their actual rights a consumer and the rights of the producer, or in this case lack of real knowledge of what constitues unethical business behavior, beyond violations of your personal ethics which is not the same as being an unethical business practice.

Boycotting is perfecty fine its one of your rights as consumers to do so, but you should not expect that simply because you do so you will get something for it. Boycotting is a means to express that you are dis satisfied with a product that a producer has created for some reason or another. It is not a way for you to get something you think you are entitled to for free simply because you boycot their product, and should not be or it would be abused to no end.

Thank you Draconis,

Not only do you express my like minded view points so eloquently, but you continue to do so in the face of some truly misinformed people spouting utterly pointless nerd rage.

[LGTX]

YourFunnyUncle wrote...

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but here's the way I see it.

They developed a Prothean character to be a DLC character from the start, and included dialogue with him to better integrate him in the main game. This means that some of the development was done at the same time as the main game. It does not however mean that the whole DLC was done at the same time as the main game, just the stuff that would seamlessly integrate the character.

A huge part of the development of the DLC (basically the whole level design of the DLC mission) could easily have been completed after the rest of the game was completed as Bioware have said. It's actually a sensible use of resources if you think about it. People who would be twiddling their thumbs while the game is being tested, certified and sent for production can do something creative.

Whether this DLC should then be charged for is certainly an issue that is worthy of debate, but the fact that the greater part of the DLC could be produced after the rest of the game was done is not at odds with the fact that the character was integrated into the game from earlier.

No, that's not how we think here. Either the whole thing was magically done when a trailer showed Prothy's shoulder pad, or it wasn't even planned until the game was out. It's unacceptable otherwise. 

[Darth Krytie]

People who preordered the CE paid more than people who preordered/buy the SE. It makes sense that if you want part of the content the CE crowd get that you shell out a few more bucks. It's not that big of a deal.

[Draconis6666]

Xellana wrote...

Because what you pay for when you purchase a full price game should include everything the development team developed to that point. I don´t want to pay full price for half the development time and additionally for the second half of development time. That´s just not right.
If I buy a new full price game, I should be getting the full game, which includes that, which the development team created until the release date.

What they do after that is their business.

The point is that there is no evidence beyond a leaked script and the fact that he was mentioned previously to prove that it was completed during the development time. So your either saying for example since the character model was created before the game was sent to certification i should have a prothean squad member in game who has no animations(not a factual representation but just saying somethign that was there but not finished) because that was completed during development. Or your saying that you believe that he was completely  done and removed for the sole purpose of selling it to you later which you have no proof of.

The mistake that you and I think many other people are making is you think that Development means up until a few weeks of the game being available for sale, when the development cycle ends a month if not months before that. There are certification, and manufacturing and shipping that all take up time during which the developer can work on additional content if they chose to.. They dont have to and they shouldnt be obligated to or to freely give you any content that they work on during that itme. When you pay for the game you pay for the content that was created during the development cycle, not the content created after regardless if that is immediately after or 3 months after. 

What you are in essence saying is if they had left the prothean incompleted and started working on it march 7th and then given it to you on say march 20th you would be perfecty fine with it but because they decided to work on somethign immediately after they finished the main product you are dis-satisfied which is to me a horrible argument.

[Selor Kiith]

RiouHotaru wrote...

A stance which makes no goddamn sense.

Why doesn't it make sense?
He's a Prothean, he somehow survived 50.000 Years or is the decendant of Protheans that survived that long, either way he has intimate knowledge about how the Reapers operate.

So either he is important being a survivor of what the whole damn galaxy thought as their predecessors, gods and other marvelous names, the ones that made the story of the game possible at the very beginning!

Or he is nothing more then a faceless talking gun...

The First thing would make it actually worthwhile, an actual "gift" to those who know ME1 and 2!
But if it is the second...
Then he shouldn't even exist! Because this is nothing more then greedy, money grabbing scam, because those that have played both games before will and have to assume that he will somehow be important because he is a goddamn Prothean.
And of course it would be a massive disservice to the Lore and Protheans themselves which would add 'no integrity' and 'no spine' tags to the greedy, money grabbing scam...

[blueruin]

 Ugh, this DLC thing is just a slippery slope to charge the consumer more for less with every new game, which I might be able to handle if the quality of the product was excellent and the price was appropriate.  But I still have an awful, lingering taste in my mouth from Dragon Age 2.


They did the same thing with Sebastian for DA2, except no one really cared about that because DA2 was an utter atrocity anyway and Sebastian was horribly boring.  A Prothean squadmate as DLC though, really boggles my mind.

I'm going to keep this Collector's Edition pre-order because: I loved both ME1 and ME2, the demo was promising, I want to finish the story, and I'd like to support you as a developer.  But some of your business practices and annoying marketing gimmicks are becoming a real bummer, and I don't think I'm going to buy any more of your games new after this.

Also, I avoided the leaked script and I know ME is campy space opera already, but I really hope ME3's writing hasn't deteriorated from your desire to "please the fanbase".  What happened to Anders in DA2 (frankly, most of DA2) was an abortion.

Modifié par blueruin, 23 février 2012 - 09:41 .

[neubourn]

YourFunnyUncle wrote...

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but here's the way I see it.

They developed a Prothean character to be a DLC character from the start, and included dialogue with him to better integrate him in the main game. This means that some of the development was done at the same time as the main game. It does not however mean that the whole DLC was done at the same time as the main game, just the stuff that would seamlessly integrate the character.

A huge part of the development of the DLC (basically the whole level design of the DLC mission) could easily have been completed after the rest of the game was completed as Bioware have said. It's actually a sensible use of resources if you think about it. People who would be twiddling their thumbs while the game is being tested, certified and sent for production can do something creative.

Whether this DLC should then be charged for is certainly an issue that is worthy of debate, but the fact that the greater part of the DLC could be produced after the rest of the game was done is not at odds with the fact that the character was integrated into the game from earlier.

Correct. Dont forget that it was planned to be a CE Exclusive to begin with, so the fact people can purchase it at all outside of CEs is a change from before as well. 

[ElementL09]

neubourn wrote...

ElementL09 wrote...

The N7 Collectors Edition is worth purchasing even without From Ashes. It really should be included with every new copy of the game.

I think a good compromise would be to give it free to everyone who PRE-OREDERED it. 

That way, it still rewards loyal fans, while also making it somewhat exclusive. 

Thats an interesting idea.

But, I think that since we already have Pre-order DLC, I think it would be fair for anyone who purchase a new copy of the game within the first week, should be able to download From Ashes for free.  Similar idea right?

[Underpower]

Michael Gamble wrote...

I've read all 96 pages of this thread. Contrary to popular thoughts, we really do care what you guys have to say.
<snip>
Thanks for your support, and thanks for your feedback.

Mike

Glad you put effort into the DLC Mike. Very glad you read these threads. The problem isn't on your level though, at least I hope it isn't. It's paying for a Prothean squadmate. It's wasting a CENTRAL piece of lore and/or ruining a stupendously setup plot twist (M.NightShamalamadingdong-level tweest!). Or it's retconning a lot Mass Effect lore for no plot/story benefit and charging for it. I don't mind paying for little DLC. I paid for every ME2 skin pack, even though I hated Jack's glasses, don't use Garrus or Thane, etc. But this Prothean... it's a waste, or it's a ripoff and quite possibly it's both.

Hope this situation is changed.

[Cainne Chapel]

cyric085 wrote...

funny thing is, they ripp off the non CE buyers for another 10 bucks,

while the jack sparrow edition has the complete game for free.

guess you didn't want those sales (and customers ) anyway

talking about screwing with your fanbase.

Bioware, you will end like Westwood Studios, Abandoned and Forgotten by your fans

How are you complaining that to CE customers (who are paying +$20 for extra content) are gettting a full game and SE customers (who are saving $20) aren't? the CE customers are PAYING for the extra content their getting so why should SE customers get it for free or for a negligible cost?

Why couldn't the "fans" as you put it, pony up the extra money like the other "fans" to get said content? Why is it a complaint NOW?  How is that screwing with the fanbase?  The CE Fans aren't getting anything free. They're PAYING EXTRA for the content their receiving.  So why should anyoen else get it for free.

I'm not understanding the argument here

[RiouHotaru]

Selor Kiith wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

A stance which makes no goddamn sense.

Why doesn't it make sense?
He's a Prothean, he somehow survived 50.000 Years or is the decendant of Protheans that survived that long, either way he has intimate knowledge about how the Reapers operate.

So either he is important being a survivor of what the whole damn galaxy thought as their predecessors, gods and other marvelous names, the ones that made the story of the game possible at the very beginning!

Or he is nothing more then a faceless talking gun...

The First thing would make it actually worthwhile, an actual "gift" to those who know ME1 and 2!
But if it is the second...
Then he shouldn't even exist! Because this is nothing more then greedy, money grabbing scam, because those that have played both games before will and have to assume that he will somehow be important because he is a goddamn Prothean.
And of course it would be a massive disservice to the Lore and Protheans themselves which would add 'no integrity' and 'no spine' tags to the greedy, money grabbing scam...

But that's just it.  Does he HAVE to be important just because he's a Prothean?  If this were ME1 or ME2 and we had this argument, I would be right up in arms with you.  Because at those points in the story, the insight of a Prothean would be immeasurably relevant.

But we're not here, nor there.  We're in ME3, the finale.  The grand finish.  The final act.  At this point, any "insight" offered by the Prothean isn't relevant.  Hell, one of the Achievements on the Xbox page is "Learn the terrible origin of your enemy".  Which means that even IF the Prothean squadmate knew anything, the game is already going to tell us what he MIGHT have been able to tell us.

The timing of the DLC is incredibly relevent to this argument.  The Prothean as a plot-critical element would've been vital IF this were one of the earlier installments.

However, now he's just a piece of nostalgia that fills in a few gaps that otherwise I'm sure we could finish the game unfilled and not care one way or the other.

[Blarty]

Yuoaman wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Yuoaman wrote...

mushoops86anjyl wrote...

None of this is an explanation of why you deserve this for less than the developer is asking you to pay. It's a huge deal to you? Why lucky you! This content is available for purchase!

I'm asking why should you not have to pay for this. "It's a big ****ing deal" isn't a satisfactory answer.

Alright, since the Protheans aren't that important, apparently, let's just take out all references to the asari unless you fork over an extra $5.

Seems fair, right?

Actually yeah, the Protheans aren't important anymore.  Their role in the plot ended in ME1.  That they were referenced in ME2 is more a plot point for the Reapers than anything else.

So... both kicking off the plot of the first game, and playing a pivotal role in it's conclusion - not to mention having their descendents appear as antagonists in the second game - makes them unimportant? The hell.

The Prothean extinction and their Citadel shenanigans are important - which are already full explored, a single remaining Prothean really isn't.

This whole situation stinks of a complete lack of perspective.... now I am getting 2 CE's (Xbox and PS3) I have 3 Xbox's and PS3s in the house so between the multiplayer and From Ashes, I will have to fork out at least 4 times what most people will have to for a single copy of From Ashes for SE, so that my sons can play both the PS3 and Xbox versions should they wish..... so from where I'm sitting, which is coinceidentally very much on the fence, I probably have as much leverage on either side of this argument as anyone else.... so.....

The facts are: Prothean's have virtually no impact in ME2 - telling us that Collector's are Prothean means pretty much nothing except as a lore point as they're mindless slaves and you can obliterate most of them in ME2. 
In ME1 the Prothean Civilization isn't a big deal as we know little about it, however the prothean extinction and their efforts in blocking the signal to the Citadel keepers is a big deal.

PS3 owners, who come to the Mass Effect franchise at this point, don't have any point of reference (in gameplay) to the Protheans except a couple of lines in the Collector Ship.

Making out like it's a big deal because it's a Prothean is one thing, however, BW could have just said, CE owners get access and 2 weeks after release we will give access to the DLC to SE owners.... however because you are able to buy and access this content on release day this is somehow attributed to the horror that is 'Surprise Day 1 DLC' ?!?! How? Everyone knew there would be a bonus character and mission in the CE.... everyone... not a secret... AND you all wanted to be able to access that content and not have it locked to CE owners only.... well you got your wish, but no.... you want it for free as well, because somehow you equate 'No Prothean = Game Broken', 'No Prothean = Lore Broken', 'No Prothean = Pre-Order Cancelled'..... where were the cries of disapproving fans when LotSB was released 'No LotSB = no Shadow Broker = no Yahg = Lore Broken = Game Broken'

As has been said before, BW and EA can sell it's products and additonal content in anyway it sees fit, just as you are entitled to use that information and prices to make a purchasing decision that you see fit, but at no point does not having the From Ashes DLC affect your ability to complete the game in a satisfactory manner or with the best ending..... and if you want to complain about Lore being Broken and you want stuff for free, go into your local bookshop and see if they put up with this, '...but it'll break my game because this book has stuff about Anderson and the Illusive Man, so guive it me free or bill it back to EA, because it has lore in it that isn't in game so it has made my game broken' type of BS that you're trying to use here. Good luck with that.

[Draconis6666]

Selor Kiith wrote...

Why doesn't it make sense?
He's a Prothean, he somehow survived 50.000 Years or is the decendant of Protheans that survived that long, either way he has intimate knowledge about how the Reapers operate.

So either he is important being a survivor of what the whole damn galaxy thought as their predecessors, gods and other marvelous names, the ones that made the story of the game possible at the very beginning!

Or he is nothing more then a faceless talking gun...

The First thing would make it actually worthwhile, an actual "gift" to those who know ME1 and 2!
But if it is the second...
Then he shouldn't even exist! Because this is nothing more then greedy, money grabbing scam, because those that have played both games before will and have to assume that he will somehow be important because he is a goddamn Prothean.
And of course it would be a massive disservice to the Lore and Protheans themselves which would add 'no integrity' and 'no spine' tags to the greedy, money grabbing scam...

It doesnt ensure that at all, he could easily have bene placed in stasis decades before the reapers even appeared and not even know they existed. Which yes would be a horrible use of the last survivior of the race and yes that is completely a valid complaint and what peole should actualy be complaining about because its likely to be the truth. 

So if your worried thats how it will be wait till its out and dont pay for it if it is. The problem is that many people seem to believe that simply because he is a prothean he HAS to be important and should be given to them for free which is a fallacy. He could be mute and unable to talk and still be a living Prothean and contribute absolutly nothing in any form at all.

[neubourn]

Cainne Chapel wrote...

cyric085 wrote...

funny thing is, they ripp off the non CE buyers for another 10 bucks,

while the jack sparrow edition has the complete game for free.

guess you didn't want those sales (and customers ) anyway

talking about screwing with your fanbase.

Bioware, you will end like Westwood Studios, Abandoned and Forgotten by your fans

How are you complaining that to CE customers (who are paying +$20 for extra content) are gettting a full game and SE customers (who are saving $20) aren't? the CE customers are PAYING for the extra content their getting so why should SE customers get it for free or for a negligible cost?

Why couldn't the "fans" as you put it, pony up the extra money like the other "fans" to get said content? Why is it a complaint NOW?  How is that screwing with the fanbase?  The CE Fans aren't getting anything free. They're PAYING EXTRA for the content their receiving.  So why should anyoen else get it for free.

I'm not understanding the argument here

Basically, people are complaining because the CE Exclusive content is actually some content that they WANT, as opposed to something meaningless like Zaeed. So, because the content is interesting and involves "lore," they are rationalizing that it should have been included in the disc, and hence free to them for buying the disc. But, because they are asked to purchase extra content that was, up until recently, exclusive to CE orders, its "detestable" "unethical" and whatever other horrifying adjective.

[RiouHotaru]

Sofia Lamb wrote...

I believe Sir Charles Barkley should have been the DLC character. As then we could defeat the Reapers with the Chaos Dunk.

Marry me you stupid sexy savage.

[nightcobra]

Michael Gamble wrote...

I've read all 96 pages of this thread. Contrary to popular thoughts, we really do care what you guys have to say.

Casey and I have explained how the development timeline on these DLC go, and in order to have our DLC flow with the main game, we do have to integrate the VO into certain places in the core product (Certain ME2 DLCs followed this same pattern). But there's a lot of work to crafting a great DLC, outside of the VO and script.

That said, i can tell you is that a team of of us poured our heart into this DLC after we had given all we could to finish the the ME3 game. We pushed hard because we wanted people to be able to experience this adventure on the first day, rather than day 30 or 60. We're proud of it, and if you choose to play it, I think you'll see that.

I really do appreciate every person who wants to give ME3 a chance (even if you're not happy with me right now!), and even without 'From Ashes' - I think you will be blown away.

Thanks for your support, and thanks for your feedback.

Mike

 i love the series and i would probably love mass effect 3 as well but as a consumer, i can't allow this misuse of DLC practice to happen.
i'm okay with day one DLC such as zaeed or shale that were free for people who bought the game new to help reduce the number of used sales and help you the developers instead of the retail stores but in this case where only the collector's edition get the DLC included is another beast entirely and you have to know that already, instead of promoting new game sales it actually does the opposite as both people with used and new games have to pay for this day one DLC making the used game more enticing to the consumer. this is just shooting yourself in the foot and giving a free pass to boost used sales to retailers. 

[Sable Phoenix]

heart again wrote...

You see, I haven't been living under a rock as far as this game is concerned.  It's been all but officially confirmed for many months that the mystery character would be a Prothean.  And I haven't even read the script...

Bully for you.  Some of us have been actively avoiding plot-related information so as not to spoil things for ourselves.

[neubourn]

People, people...you are all forgetting that Protheans were FAILURES. They failed to stop the Reapers. Is that *really* the kind of squadmate you want on your team to begin with?

Shepard: "Hey Prothy, how do we beat these Reapers?
Prothy: "what are you asking me for? They wiped out my entire race, duh."

[Draconis6666]

neubourn wrote...

People, people...you are all forgetting that Protheans were FAILURES. They failed to stop the Reapers. Is that *really* the kind of squadmate you want on your team to begin with?

Shepard: "Hey Prothy, how do we beat these Reapers?
Prothy: "what are you asking me for? They wiped out my entire race, duh."

I want him so I can ask him for advice and do the exact opposite