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Mass Effect 3: From Ashes


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#2926
Selor Kiith

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Draconis6666 wrote...

Saying the exact same thing over and over without any proof and an obvious lack of understanding of how games are made and how DLC is made does not help your case.


Do you have proof that it actually is NOT just a marketing gig? Getting another 10$ from "loyal customers" that played both games before, and don't wanted to get spoilered, thought "Hey a living Prothean! Must be important!" 
Not just "Hey... just cut it out and tag a price on it"?

Should we believe what Electronic Arts' PR Department authorized the Devs to say?

#2927
Xellana

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Confused-Shepard wrote...

So give me one good reason I should purchase this. I would rather the Protheans remain mysterious and unknown than have Little Jacob from GTA IV lecture me on how things were done back in his day


This is actually a very valid point and a very good excuse for my mind not to pay for this dlc :) I don´t even want a prothean in my ME game that doesn´t add anything to the lore and just totally doesn´t fit in the game at all.

#2928
theranmafan

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I'd (correctly) assumed the CE would contain the Prothean when he was first announced, along with some other mission and other stuff so I went ahead and knowingly ordered the CE despite the ludicrous price tag (which I still feel should include at least a limited OST). I didn't like the price tag because this is probably sending the wrong signal to EA, but I don't buy games that often anyway, and never DLC unless it comes in the box. So I'm fine with it.

On the other hand, TotalBiscuit is on the warpath and utterly disgusted by it. Maybe EA/Bioware would like to send a PR representative to discuss this particular issue with him? He's rather influential on the interwebs, from what I can tell...

#2929
Baal Sagoth

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Brian.V3 wrote...

Well so is the prothean except apparently everyone and their mommy/daddy/religious deity are interested in it.


MP doesn't add anything storywise, Prothean is infinitely important for any ME universe fan. Pity You don't see the difference.

And it isn't about Prothean, Ripper or Volus squad member. It is about gamers who as customers have such low standards that they will gladly accept any rip off.

Imagine such bussines model with other products:

Cars - You can pay extra for ABS or driver's airbag. They aren't essential for car to work. But they are standard 'cause customers forced companies to that.

Books - And now Mighty Hero goes to Misty Swamps to fight Vile Hydra. But this part isn't as essential to the plot so You can buy that 20 pages as DLC.

This isn't possible with any other product, heck noone will ever think about it. Only we - gamers accept this.

#2930
Rockworm503

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RiouHotaru wrote...

Rockworm503 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...

if it was handled like it was with zaeed and shale i'd have no problem with it, but as it stands this DLC practice just feels...wrong to me.


So it feels wrong that they want money for something they put work into after the game was done and pushed themselves to get done on release date?


This logic its like any patches for the game should cost money because you know its only fair that they get moneys for their hard work.

Is the 60 dollars that we give them for the full game just simply not enough anymore?
I have to feel guilty for not buying all the DLC?  I need to be reminded that these guys worked hard?  And people wonder why the fanboy titled is thrown around so much.


That's a world of difference between a patch to fix bugs, and optional bonus content, good sir.


Valve doesn't seem to think so.
We still get updates from Team Fortress 2 and L4D 1 and 2.
Many of these updates include optional bonus content as you called it.

#2931
Mister Mida

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OdanUrr wrote...

I mean it wasn't officially announced the squadmate would be a Prothean or that we'd be returning to Eden Prime. In fact, the "June spoiler" was rectified and dismissed as a mistake what led a lot of people to believe (myself included) that the Prothean squadmate would not be, in fact, the bonus squadmate for the CE.


I personally never found it a stretch that Prothy would be the bonus. Bioware simply dismissed it back in June as a mistake because just like MP they didn't want to ****** off anyone yet.

And if you did the math you could've also figured it out. We already know 5 out of 6 squaddies, yet we know nothing of number 6 except some rumour of Prothy...

#2932
Blarty

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* Dodges toys thrown from prams *

#2933
nightcobra

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RiouHotaru wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...

if it was handled like it was with zaeed and shale i'd have no problem with it, but as it stands this DLC practice just feels...wrong to me.


So it feels wrong that they want money for something they put work into after the game was done and pushed themselves to get done on release date?


it feels wrong to me in the sense that they've done a far better method of conveying day 1 DLC content to all consumers who buy the game new, rewarding them with a new character.
with this however that now only applies to the people with the limited collector's edition, hereby making the buying the game new far less enticing than it was before as opposed to just waiting and getting it used.

#2934
Quiron-br

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I already payed and can not cancel. This is the last time you see my money, Bioware.

#2935
GMOSinc

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mjharper wrote...

I don't really want to get involved in this discussion, but I wonder how much of the problem is down to names?

What would have happened if, instead of 'Collector's Edition' Bioware had called it the 'Fan Edition', or 'Full Edition', or even 'Standard Edition'; and if instead of 'Standard Edition' they called the cheaper set the 'Casual Edition' or 'Budget Edition'?


Then you're implying that anyone who purchases version A is X and everyone who purchases B is Y. The issue remains that you're implying what your customer is. NOT a thing you'd want to do, unless you ofcourse like your office to be redecorated with a brown color.

#2936
kingsims

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It seems a bit pointless to grab the DLC for PC users when you can grab all this for an extra $10 from origin.

*M-55 Argus
*AT-12 Raider Shotgun (Exclusive to Origin)
*70-page Digital Art book
*Exclusive 4x6 Lithographic Print.
*N7 - Arsenal Pack
*Mechdog Companion
*Squadmate Alternate Outfit Pack
*N7 Hoodie
*Digital Soundtrack (Seems Exclusive to Origin, Physical CE do not have the soundtrack)
*N7 Forum Collection
*Plus From Ashes

The Soundtrack and Artbook alone are worth $20! So... Guess PC users are just best to cough up an extra $10 for a better package sigh to avoid feeling like they are getting ripped.

#2937
VelvetStraitjacket

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Oh lord, so much butthurt!
Ah, I can't wait to get my pet Prothean. I think I'll name it Lady Penelope <3

#2938
leezhanwei

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I guess I am pretty lucky that I got hold of the CE 2 days ago-complete with the Alliance Normandy SR2 replica ship.

#2939
Seafort

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I'll keep my normal copy as I got it 25% off but I'll be damned if I'm buying day 1 DLC which should already be in the game. I didn't buy any DA2 DLC either but then again that was a rip off too for a mediocre game.

Just read that UK games sales are down 25% from last year too :P Get ready to adjust your revenue forecasts EA!

#2940
Dexi

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Kevin Lozandier wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

 Posting again for prosterity:


 Alright, based on what we know, and Casey/Mike's comments, here's my educated estimation of Prothy's development timeline, which is consistent with the information presented to us:

(Note this is all speculation, but backed by the information currently available to us)

- At some point during ME's development, the team comes up with an idea to have a Prothean appear as a character central to the plot, and dialog/events/etc. are written into the script (This matches the first leak)

- However, at some point during development, the team realizes they cannot develop Prothy enough to work him into the game and still meet their deadline.  In the interests of meeting their deadline, Prothy is cut from the script (For reference, Deus Ex: HR has TWO whole hubs cut due to development deadlines)

- Not willing to simply discard a character they worked on, they decide to set him aside as bonus content, and focus on the core content.  VA work was likely done either at this point, or during a later point.

- A second script is made, in which the portions of the game in which Prothy was plot-critical are rewritten so that his presence isn't mandatory for the story to proceed (the second leak), thus fixing the problem of him being plot-critical.

- A decision is made to put Prothy in as a part of the CE grab-bag, which is leaked a touch too early (The June spoiler)

- January comes around.  With ME3 having reached it's final stage and with certification underway/finished, the team turns to focus on work on the still unfinished From Ashes DLC

- A decision is made to push development forward.  Likely under normal circumstances the DLC could've been done and certified in time for the CE's release, but in the interests of making sure their entire community can recieve it on day 1, RATHER than having everyone else who didn't get the CE wait 30 or 60 days, the team puts the pedal to the metal and finishes From Ashes in Feburary.

- Since Prothy is bonus content, Bioware puts the price at $10 worth of points (800 points I believe)

- From Ashes is somehow leaked onto the XBL marketplace (MS has such crappy security) and the fanbase explodes upon learning of his existence.

- Cue the current sh*tstorm on the forum

The ironic part?  Bioware's own desire to have Prothy done and certified in time for release (Rather than have him waiting for everyone who didn't get a CE on day 30 or 60, as Mike said) has somehow backfired and exploded on their own face, because people believe they are entitled to it for free, despite the obvious claim that Prothy is DLC, aka bonus content. 



Based on what I know about game development from talking to actual game devs and game company CEOs, that's not far-fetched at all...




There was no "desire" to give BW it's absolutetly lovely fanbase a piece of the game with so great importance as soon as possible. They didn't think at some point to postpone the Prothean DLC.

We know for months ( a lot of them) from a CE list leak that the Prothean DLC was intended to be a launch DLC.
Being a leak and not an official announcement, that means that it was decided by the marketing to be put there months earlier. That means that it was developed as a separated DLC from almost the beginning.  

#2941
mjharper

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OdanUrr wrote...

mjharper wrote...

I don't really want to get involved in this discussion, but I wonder how much of the problem is down to names?

What would have happened if, instead of 'Collector's Edition' Bioware had called it the 'Fan Edition', or 'Full Edition', or even 'Standard Edition'; and if instead of 'Standard Edition' they called the cheaper set the 'Casual Edition' or 'Budget Edition'?


That would have made the matter worse.

Why? (Please humour me, I'm genuinely interested and not trying to troll!)

#2942
Draconis6666

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Dexi wrote...

And your argument fights in the direction disproving of his existence altogether, not his importance. 

As I already stated, the status quo of his existence makes him important. 



But its true his existance is not required to be important or even needed simply because he exists, his entire DLC could very  well just be to simply allow players to explore more about teh lore aspect of the protheans in a way that has no relevance to the protheans contributions to the war against the reaper. In this regard yes he would have no importance or actual need to the game at all. He would simply be a way to provide fans of the series an insight into something that may interest them beyond whats important to the plot of the game.

Suppose the plot of his mission is simply an insight into the daily life of protheans before the reapers in that case what relevance does he have to the actual game itself? very little, but it would still be of value to pepole who wish to learn about the lore. Even if he had no mission at all and said nothing but one liners he would have value to people who just think its cool to have a prothean along to kill stuff with.

The status quo of his existance makes him possibly important but does not ensure it or guarantee it, because this is a game and not reality and what role he plays is not subject to actual interactions in which we would be free to pursu any course of interaction with him we wish, we are insteaad forced to interact with him within the constrains of how Bioware has chosen to allow us to. That does not have to be anything important to anythign at all, he could just as easily be Mute say nothing, have no mission and follow us around and shoot thigns and have zero relevance but still be inclluded because they felt like putting it in.

This would be a horrible implmementation and if thats how it was done, that would be plenty of concern for outrage over the wasted potential of the character, and likely his actual implementation will be just as much so.

His importance within the game however is not ensured by his existance alone, it only becomes a valid argument if you begin to include conjecture on what SHOULD be included and what IS included and how HE SHOULD relate to those things which in no way forces him to do so because his actions are determined by what Bioware has written for him and not by what we believe he should do.

Basicaly Potential or Deserved Importance =/= Actual Importance

#2943
Rockworm503

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Quiron-br wrote...

I already payed and can not cancel. This is the last time you see my money, Bioware.


This.  I will buy and enjoy (VANILLA) ME3 but that will be the extent of it.  Beyond this my dealings with EA and Bioware are done.  I'm almost tempted to say screw it and be done now and pretend the series ended with 2 but I'm way to excited for this.
They won my money this time but I will be ignoring future products.
This whole thing leaves such a strong bitter taste in my mouth.  I should be enjoying games instead of this.

#2944
Confused-Shepard

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I would suggest everyone NOT to purchase this simply because after the initial shock & awe moments of meeting Prothy and going to Eden Prime to find the "All Spark" that awakens "Gundam MX-3", the greatest fighting robot in all the cosmos, the whole experience will be dulled by the fact that all this will have ZERO effect on the main plot. Prothy will either stay silent or give a one liner whenever we see something interesting just like Legion in Mass Effect 2.

-------WITHOUT PROTHY----

Shepard: Oh my god! This Prothean archive contains blueprints for a giant fighting robot!
Liara: Hooray!

-------WITH PROTHY-----

Shepard: Oh my god! This Prothean archive contains blueprints for a giant fighting robot!
Liara: Hooray!
Prothy: You press the red button to shoot and press Z or R twice to do a barrel roll

Do people really want this?

#2945
Draconis6666

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Dexi wrote...


There was no "desire" to give BW it's absolutetly lovely fanbase a piece of the game with so great importance as soon as possible. They didn't think at some point to postpone the Prothean DLC.

We know for months ( a lot of them) from a CE list leak that the Prothean DLC was intended to be a launch DLC.
Being a leak and not an official announcement, that means that it was decided by the marketing to be put there months earlier. That means that it was developed as a separated DLC from almost the beginning.  


Most DLC is pre planned and undergoes limited development during the production cycle to minimize costs and  make the process more efficient. Kasumi also underwent planning and was developed in some forms well before the game was ever released. Even so far as having large portions of her voice content and place holder models on the disc itself.

#2946
Blarty

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And on that day, I wandered looking for a rooftop,
And I found a rooftop; cold, standing out proud against the sky,
And I climbed to the rooftop, overlooking a sea of confused faces,
And lo, did I cry unto heaven, and the confused faces turned,
And went about their daily business, unfettered by my claims,
For the cries and claims I made were my own, for my own desires and wants
Not the hopes and needs of others.

#2947
Unfallen_Satan

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I think it's great that From Ashes is available to regular edition buyers. If only CE buyers can enjoy its story, that would be a real crime.

#2948
Rockworm503

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Draconis6666 wrote...

Dexi wrote...

And your argument fights in the direction disproving of his existence altogether, not his importance. 

As I already stated, the status quo of his existence makes him important. 



But its true his existance is not required to be important or even needed simply because he exists, his entire DLC could very  well just be to simply allow players to explore more about teh lore aspect of the protheans in a way that has no relevance to the protheans contributions to the war against the reaper. In this regard yes he would have no importance or actual need to the game at all. He would simply be a way to provide fans of the series an insight into something that may interest them beyond whats important to the plot of the game.

Suppose the plot of his mission is simply an insight into the daily life of protheans before the reapers in that case what relevance does he have to the actual game itself? very little, but it would still be of value to pepole who wish to learn about the lore. Even if he had no mission at all and said nothing but one liners he would have value to people who just think its cool to have a prothean along to kill stuff with.

The status quo of his existance makes him possibly important but does not ensure it or guarantee it, because this is a game and not reality and what role he plays is not subject to actual interactions in which we would be free to pursu any course of interaction with him we wish, we are insteaad forced to interact with him within the constrains of how Bioware has chosen to allow us to. That does not have to be anything important to anythign at all, he could just as easily be Mute say nothing, have no mission and follow us around and shoot thigns and have zero relevance but still be inclluded because they felt like putting it in.

This would be a horrible implmementation and if thats how it was done, that would be plenty of concern for outrage over the wasted potential of the character, and likely his actual implementation will be just as much so.

His importance within the game however is not ensured by his existance alone, it only becomes a valid argument if you begin to include conjecture on what SHOULD be included and what IS included and how HE SHOULD relate to those things which in no way forces him to do so because his actions are determined by what Bioware has written for him and not by what we believe he should do.

Basicaly Potential or Deserved Importance =/= Actual Importance


Thank you.  If what you say is true than it makes it all the more easier to ignore it.
If this DLC is so not important than I have really no reason to get it.

#2949
Cainne Chapel

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Baal Sagoth wrote...

Brian.V3 wrote...

Well so is the prothean except apparently everyone and their mommy/daddy/religious deity are interested in it.


MP doesn't add anything storywise, Prothean is infinitely important for any ME universe fan. Pity You don't see the difference.

And it isn't about Prothean, Ripper or Volus squad member. It is about gamers who as customers have such low standards that they will gladly accept any rip off.

Imagine such bussines model with other products:

Cars - You can pay extra for ABS or driver's airbag. They aren't essential for car to work. But they are standard 'cause customers forced companies to that. (Well the airbags are a safety standard, companies are fined or cars a recalled otherwise, doesn't really fit the bonus optional content in games i'm afraid)

Books - And now Mighty Hero goes to Misty Swamps to fight Vile Hydra. But this part isn't as essential to the plot so You can buy that 20 pages as DLC. (Another one that doesn't fit, if there's a small paper back that is a sidestory, those are commonly sold separetely, but if it has no pertaining relevance to the plot of the book, I really dont need to read about it now do I?)

This isn't possible with any other product, heck noone will ever think about it. Only we - gamers accept this.


Your analogies dont really fit....

But DLC and books and cars are two COMPLETELY different beasts as I've added in the bolded statements above.

DLC isn't any different than say a movie release a "complete" edition with all the edited out and cut footage due to time constraints, story pacing, etc.  All media has cut footage to some degree, Music, Movies, games, etc.  DLC allows companies to add it back in for a fee for people who want it, or dont and thus dont buy it.

You'd be amazed at all the cut footage from even weekly TV shows due to editing.  Its just that DLC is more prolific now, But Honestly I see no problem with it, if I like it? I buy it, If I dont, well I dont

#2950
Draconis6666

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Selor Kiith wrote...

Draconis6666 wrote...

Saying the exact same thing over and over without any proof and an obvious lack of understanding of how games are made and how DLC is made does not help your case.


Do you have proof that it actually is NOT just a marketing gig? Getting another 10$ from "loyal customers" that played both games before, and don't wanted to get spoilered, thought "Hey a living Prothean! Must be important!" 
Not just "Hey... just cut it out and tag a price on it"?

Should we believe what Electronic Arts' PR Department authorized the Devs to say?


Thats how debate works you accuse them of something they claim its not true and then you prove that it is, you dont accuse them, then tell them that they are lying and demand they prove it without evidence of your own to back up your claim that they are lying.