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Mass Effect 3: From Ashes


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#3051
Confused-Shepard

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Kevin Lozandier wrote...

Kevin Lozandier wrote...

Amikae wrote...

CrustyBot wrote...

Is there any way to pay more than $10 for the Prothean? Because I would love to pay extra if it meant that the haters who have the audacity to question BioWare and even call them liars would keep quiet and stop ruining everyone else's fun.

Seriously guys, you complain over everything.

If Mass Effect 3 were $100 and you had to pay $10 for every squadmate in the game extra, it'd still be worth it because it's BioWare and with BioWare, you know that you get what you pay for.


God forbid we question BioWare/EA. What a mortal sin....


So you're saying Bioware to undo the work they did for some time to seperate this character from the core game, stop the presses of the game currently being reproduced by the thousands for March 6, 2012 and act like those copies and the money spent to make those copies don't exist, and add back something that is at most maybe at most 1-2 additional gameplay + the completely unnecessary additional gun and custome despite all the work and sweat they've made to make it a DLC-worthy package? 


That's insane. They made a decision. Based on their rationale, it made sense. Some aren't going to like it. But the way they have packaged it and the fact that it's included free with those who was likely to appreciate it the most, there's not much of a foul in my opinion.

Considering how other company's DLC have been implemented at the same price range (remember this DLC is MORE than the Prothean), it's reasonable value. 


Unless you wanted an unexpected buggy experience for the final chapter of the Mass Effect series, I think what's not being taken account how long it takes to make games like this, and what factors you have to take into account with an additional content being properly added to a game to be an 'important part of the story'.


This content is for long-faithful fans. It's in the Collector's Edition for free rather than be scrapped like some content before DLC was truly feasible. 


It should have stayed scrapped.
Something as important as a LIVING PROTHEAN should not be DURR! $10 Optional DLC 

#3052
Draconis6666

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Lorfean wrote...

I'm just writing this in the hopes that somewhere, some BioWare/EA employee is counting the negative reactions to this situation and my voice will be one of many that will eventually make them re-evaluate their decision.

I'm boycotting the game. All the announcements about bonus material that can be unlocked through various outside-the-game sources (facebook, iOS apps, artbooks, action figures, etc.) has been quite annoying to me, but said bonus material was sufficiently minor that I could just ignore it, forget about it, and keep looking forward to the actual game. A Prothean squad member (!) tied into an exclusive mission that will "unearth secrets from the past", that I have to pay $10,- for on launch day is something I cannot ignore or forget. It's ridiculous.

"The Stone Prisoner" DLC for Dragon Age: Origins contained one of the best companions in that game with a great exclusive questline build around her, and it was launch day DLC that was FREE for anyone who purchased the game! "The Cerberus Network" DLC for Mass Effect 2 contained a new squad member with an exclusive mision build around him, the M-44 Hammerhead vehicle with several exclusive missions designed around it, and an exclusive mission that allowed players to visit the Normandy's crash site, and it was launch day DLC that was FREE for anyone who purchased the game!! What the hell happened here?! How can anyone think this is even remotely acceptable?! I'm sorry BioWare, I'm a long time fan and costumer of yours, but this I can't accept. I hate, absolutely HATE that I'm gonna have to miss out on the final chapter of my Shepard trilogy, but I simply cannout accept this.


Please instead of posting this on a forum thats full of trolls and ranters who rant just for the sake of ranting send this in an Email to Bioware and EA. It will have far greater effect that way than posting on a forum.

#3053
Farbautisonn

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Up and working and Id thought I peek back into this forum. Ive read about 20 pages of the same stuff I read yesterday. And I have 20 more pages to go.

But the thing here is, regardles of the superzelous fanbois opinons or not.

This is a storydriven franchise. It wasnt hailed as a pew pew. Bioware doesnt have a 10 year and running rep for good pew pews. Bioware has a ten year plus rep for good storydriven adventures. For RPGs. For innovative and interesting games. Most of the Bioware founders and quite a few of the employees have a background in pen and paper RPGs. But for some reason they cant seem to fanthom that the story is that important to us, the regulars who are used to storytelling. They (and their defendors) do no seem to grasp the importance of continuing the focus on their core competance before expanding into the pew pew MP field.

That I do not undestand.

Even aside from the pure "the story is essential in a storydriven game" argument that seems to fall on deaf ears, ignoring or playing down your core competances in a time of fiscal crisis is an extremely crap idea. Ask any first years student in business school. Any entrepeneur.

If this prothean business had been the first slipup from Bioware, then I might have thought;
"Meh... ok... nobody can be perfect all the time... Ill let this slide. No problem".

The lack of attention to the narrative, to the story, has however become more than just a "freak accident / one time only sloppy oversight".

DAO:Had story up the kazoo. It was storydriven and it was genrally very well recieved. DA2 got panned all but universally for having butchered the lore, the dialogue and pretty much all else story and rpg related

Enter the last novel. The last novel publish by del ray was so crap, so inconsistant in its lore, so feeble and unpolished in its character continuation, that it caused people to go basically ape****e. The fans went nuts and Bio/del ray had to go out and promise a "revised" version. It was as if noone from Bioware had even read the novel. As if noone cared. As if the story, so pivotal to the ME franchise, suddenly mattered nothing. You had the games, the wiki, and the previous novels and dlcs to go on as a writer and you STILL managed to churn out something that was as beyond all critique. You STILL managed to let it slip through to the fans, in some blind vain hope that the fanbase that has been following you for more than ten years for your storytelling wouldnt notice you completely disregarded the very same.

And now enter The Prothean. A member of a race that has played a significant, critical plot part. A member of a race thought dead for 50k years. The last survivor of a race thought to be gods, legends, myths and shepards of the galaxy. A guy who, even if he was as hamfisted and lacking finesse as Grunt, would know a hell of alot we do not know about his people. Even the most idiotic, uneducated moron in the western world can name 10 significant places on the planet. Ten cultural hubs. Ten major cities. Ten animals. Ten utensils. Ten entertainments. And this guy survived somehow. If he was in cryogenic stasis, he must have been valuable enough to put in stasis, which would mean he would likely know more. A solder knows about weapons systems, small unit tactics, handsigns, command structure, insignia, the history of his unit, the flag of his region or nation. A scientist would know considerably more. The last member of a critical race in the history of the galaxy. And he is somehow "trivial" or "unimportant" in the lore, to the point of disregarding him completely? Really? Tell me something bioware? Would you have accepted that at a Pen and Paper seesion from your own DM? Would you have just folded, and let your DM skate past that part of the lore? You wouldnt in the least bit have found this guy to be near essential? Really? Did you forget your roots or something? Did someone hit you over the head and cause masive amnesia? What happened? You couldnt see this comming from miles away?

Dont you see this pattern establishes a trend? Fool me once, shame on you, Fool me twice shame on me. Fool me thrice? I dont think so. Im not that stupid. Im not that zealous.

I will be buying ME3. I will be buying all DLC's. And Ill pay through the nose if you ask me. But dont ever expect me again to trust you to make a storydriven game for people who love stories and adventures. Any new IP or continuation of old IP's will be scrutinized and be subjected to intense sceptizism. You have jeopadized your reputation, your very raison d'etre, your fiscal core clientbase for what? 10 bucks per installment of your latest game? Is that worth the blow to the reputation? Is it worth the damage controll overtime from your CS reps? Is it worth alienating a significant part or minority over? Is it worth the PR problems? I wouldnt think so.

Call me a whiner. A "entitleist". Call me whatever. But dont treat me like I dont matter. Dont expect this to have zero impact on your reptuation and your future earnings.

#3054
nightcobra

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the thing is, was it really necessary to change the day one DLC system they had with zaeed/shale?
did they have any reason, any reason at all to change what was already a good enough way of an incentive to buy the game new? how is it any better to put that incentive to limited copies of the collector's edition instead of all standard new editions and its potential buyers?

#3055
OdanUrr

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Kevin Lozandier wrote...

This content is for long-faithful fans. It's in the Collector's Edition for free rather than be scrapped like some content before DLC was truly feasible. 


Please, let us stop with that particular disingenuous assertion.<_<

#3056
MrLee95

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Kevin Lozandier wrote...

MrLee95 wrote...

Rockworm503 wrote...

MrLee95 wrote...

"The Prothean is optional content that is certainly designed to appeal to long-time fans, which is why he is part of the CE offering (the version many fans would be likely to purchase). Mass Effect 3 is a complete – and a huge game - right out of the box."

BioWare really? You make something as important as the Protheans available in game and call it "optional content"? Sorry thats just BS you all know it!!
This just stinks EA all over it and its very sad that you all have to stoop down to these low levels to make a buck

You are treating your most faithful fans like crap! After DragonAge 2 I am really not liking what I have seen from BioWare, this is just sad!!

And you all damn well know how the economy is! You are asking use to spend $59 on a game, THEN wanting us to pay $10 more dollars when something like this should be included!!

This isn't Zheed or Kasumi, this is the fraking PROTHEANS!!!

STOP TREATING YOUR CUSTOMERS LIKE CRAP TO MAKE A QUICK BUCK!!!






Oh gosh stop being so entitled :devil:


I am entitled to nothing, as I have added in my post, I pre-ordered the N7 edition. I am more pissed that this is a clear money grab and something this important should be for EVERYONE to experiance.






It's in the Collector's Edition; it means more to long-time fans of the series so it means so much more to them than anyone else. At least, that is what I think. 


Ya I get that, BUT in this case I think something so important like the Protheans should be included in the main part of the game since they are what Mass Effect is all about.

If this was another random character like we had in ME2 then I don't think this would be a problem. But when they add in Protheans, then ya its a big deal! :)

#3057
Blarty

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nightcobra8928 wrote...

the thing is, was it really necessary to change the day one DLC system they had with zaeed/shale?
did they have any reason, any reason at all to change what was already a good enough way of an incentive to buy the game new? how is it any better to put that incentive to limited copies of the collector's edition instead of all standard new editions and its potential buyers?


I'll break from smacking my head against a brick wall for a moment to reiterate the following:

Shale, Cerberus Network, ME3 Multiplayer - there is your Project $10 for DA:O, ME2 and ME3

#3058
Anaeme

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Someone mentioned CDProjekt in this thread...the difference in the way both companies treat their customers is stunning really

Origin vs GOG

Ashes DLC vs Added content in X360 edition

When CDP released The Witcher 2 they did not force people to download it through GOG
When the enchanced edition of The Witcher 2 comes out, PC fans will get all the additional X360 content for free


How did Bioware fall so low? I do not recognize this company anymore. Who are these people?

#3059
Confused-Shepard

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Somebody ask BIOWARE if they consider story important anymore or are they content with making shoddy Gears of War ripoffs?

#3060
Draconis6666

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Selor Kiith wrote...

Draconis6666 wrote...

Agree with you 100% on that point you have absolutly no obligation to agree wth their business model, but this forum is a poor place to convey your disagreement. Because it is populated by trolls and ranters to the point where Bioware can hardly be expected to take anything said here seriously. If you truly disagree with their business practices and are not just complaining because you feel that if you complain enough they will give you what you want for free. Then I would urge you to send an email expressing your concerns and your complains to EA and Bioware, in a civil manner that makes it clear to them what it is you disagree with, that you will not be paying for their products while this continues and more importantly what you would like them to do to correct the issue.

Bioware and EA are not mindreaders, even if they decide that the outcry of their customers warrants action they have to decide what action to take, nothing they do will please everyone, but expressing your opinion on the issue to them in a way that is not garbled beneith layers of forum drivle, trolling, and "PRE ORDER CANCLED!!" posts is a far more meaningful approach to the issue.


Oh I am in the process to do so, haven't found the right words yet.
I am just here to make my opinion public and not just closed up behind a PR Spokespersons Desktop PC.
And in fact to test some arguments and analogies, if they are understandable and/or even fitting.

Besides I love a good rant now and then and some people here, on both sides, are especially funny.
It is always hard when two groups that call themselves the same and say they stand for the same thing fight each other on the basis of actually knowing nothing.

I mean sure, I obviously lean to one side and sometimes drift to deep into it but I have decided that neither extreme is any good and that we should talk it out and maybe get more people to actually make a serious attempt of displaying their displeasure with this decision in an appropriate manner and medium (as you said E-Mail), maybe even get some of those that are "Defenders" at the sole reason of "beeing a fan" to reconsider.

But this uncivilized rant does have its good side too.
Eliminating the threats and insults it shows to EA and Bioware how much the Forumbased Fans actually love the game and how they will notice when something in the behaviour has changed.


Very true the issue is that many people believe the argument can be solved on the forums alone, and while the forums certianly have their place, the entire situation that this issue stems from that people are so against would likely be significantly different if all those people took the time to voice their complaints to EA,, Bioware, and other publishers and developers through more traditional means. 

It's easy to ignore ranting on a forum, its much harder to ignore 500 emails, or 200 written letters. 

#3061
realguile

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 And the crying from the vocal minority contiunes...

Pay the money and shut up, or better yet, get out of here. if bioware disgusts you so much then get lost.

I'll be playing the collectors edition with my new squadmate and the rest of you can choke on your tears.

#3062
Zeratil

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Read the sticky Bioware, still think this is a complete gouge. Where's the same dedication to your customers and fans that brought us Cerberus and Shale? I really hope you reverse this decision as it makes me not want to buy your product despite loving the series.

#3063
Underpower

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I've been a Detroit lions fan for 20 years now...granted I dont buy everything lions branded or go or even watch EVERY game

Football analogy:

What I see happening is now you have to pay a little bit more to watch the kicking parts of the game. Punts, kickoffs, point afters, etc. You still get offense and defense, but now something that you'd expect to get anyway and could really have an impact on the game is available... for a little more money. It's not getting color commentary for the game for more money, it's part of the game itself, what in the past was included, has been integral to the entire game's past, is now not included... unless you pay more.

#3064
Kevin Lozandier

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Reinholder wrote...

Kevin Lozandier wrote...

You don't know the story of the game, how can you assert with certainty that this Prothean is so key to the story? Sure, his race is important; but if another  Krogan or a  Collector (a 'reapified' Prothean) was DLC, would you be mad as well as those races are certainly key to the story? 

For all we know, there may be other Protheans features in the game or they are involved with the super weapon I won't name that was revealed in the new Art book for the series.


It's naive to assume that a storyline with a Prothean in it will be a case of "oh hey, here's a Prothean to play with, by the way." That storyline (and I'll put money on this - I'll buy you a $10 game of your choice on steam if I'm wrong) will come with backstory, and additional story elements, as well as a possible jump off point for the future of the franchise.


The probablity of that is literally up in the air and completely pluasible. I expect good storytelling regardless of it to be DLC to not make me immediately think 'Oh Hey, here's a Prothean to play with'; just like how I don't expect 'Shepard automatically will win against the reapers because he's the main character. People hate sad stories'. Otherwise, it's bad story writing and THAT would make Bioware look bad. 

#3065
Cainne Chapel

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Confused-Shepard wrote...

CrustyBot wrote...

wh00ley 06 wrote...

This is absolutely unacceptable. The difference between Mass Effect 2 and 3 has become the difference between rewarding loyal fans and punishing others. Completely absurd. I've preordered the CE but I'll be rescinding that until I see that this DLC is free over the Alliance Network. Don't let EA bully you, because bullies are all they are.


If anyone is the bully here, it's you "fans".

Rather than being grateful that BioWare has worked their asses off to complete this DLC after it could be inserted into the main game, which they already planned to make for the CE, you all decide to whine and **** about it as if you're entitled to whatever's finished by release day rather than what BioWare feels is the core experience.

Guess what, it's their game.

BioWare took the extra step to allow their loyal fans to purchase the DLC on day 1 at a fair price of $10. The fact that people are openly calling BioWare employees liars just goes to show how entitled some fans think they are.

I'd be disappointed, but quite frankly, I don't expect any better from BSN.

Shepard's story is coming to an epic conclusion, but instead of being appreciative for BioWare's hard work and shelling out all your money for it, you all decide to get on your soapboxes and complain.

For shame.


If they truly cared about the fans regardless of being a business this DLC would either be free with NEW copies or already part of the main game. Instead they saw an oppurtunity to steal an extra $10 from loyal fans and too it
"Hey you guys like Protheans right? That will be 10 dollars!!"

It wouldn't be so bad if it was Blasto the Hanar Spectre as DLC
This is like having Nathan Drake be Day 1 DLC for Uncharted 3
The Protheans are central to the story and Bioware is selling something that will have NO impact on plot


This is where a disconnect is, so certain characters ok and others are not because they're specific RACE is Quasi important?  how does that hold up?  Either the DLC is worth buying or it isn't no matter WHO or whats in it.
Just because the new squaddie is a Prothean doesn't automatically make him the all knowing Prothean fount of knowledge, nor should it.

You cant compare a prothean to Nathan Drake, He's the MAIN character and we're not paying for "Shepard" here who IS central to the story.  Like it or not Protheans are a plot device and of background importance.  ME is about Shepard and to the extent Humanity.

Just because he IS a prothean doesn't mean he has to have HUGE plot ramifications, Legion is a Geth and they have a larger day to day role in the series than the protheans do and while part of the main game, even HE is disposable.  Yet he's good to have a provides good background.  But hardly central to ME2 and the plot line.

Cant bioware just release a fun optional character for the final opus?  Id ont see a problem with that.  Hell not everyone will even CARE to have the prothean squadmate I can guarantee you.

#3066
A Crusty Knight Of Colour

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Confused-Shepard wrote...

It should have stayed scrapped.
Something as important as a LIVING PROTHEAN should not be DURR! $10 Optional DLC 


So rather than giving something back to the loyal fans of Mass Effect by offering them the DLC, you'd rather they scrapped it altogether?

BioWare is bending over backwards to try and accomodate everyone involved (themselves for the hard work they did, CE owners who pre-ordered in advance and everyone else who didn't get the CE) and this is the attitude given back to their gracious offer?

"If I can't have it for free, nobody should get it at all!"

That's not childish in the least.

<_<

Sometimes, I just don't get BioWare "fans", this seems to be a terrible forum for folks who want to let BioWare know that every decision they make has the support of millions of people.

realguile wrote...

And the crying from the vocal minority contiunes...

Pay the money and shut up, or better yet, get out of here. if bioware disgusts you so much then get lost.

I'll be playing the collectors edition with my new squadmate and the rest of you can choke on your tears.


Finally, a voice of reason! BioWare, this is your true fanbase.

*thumbs up*

Modifié par CrustyBot, 23 février 2012 - 12:35 .


#3067
OdanUrr

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realguile wrote...

 And the crying from the vocal minority contiunes...

Pay the money and shut up, or better yet, get out of here. if bioware disgusts you so much then get lost.

I'll be playing the collectors edition with my new squadmate and the rest of you can choke on your tears.


There's no need to be rude about it.

#3068
Blarty

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OdanUrr wrote...

Kevin Lozandier wrote...

This content is for long-faithful fans. It's in the Collector's Edition for free rather than be scrapped like some content before DLC was truly feasible. 


Please, let us stop with that particular disingenuous assertion.<_<




Here's a thought - you're a PS3 ME2 owner just what exactly do you care for the Protheans? You came to the Mass Effect franchise mainly through ME2 not ME1, what exactly do you care for the Protheans? If Protheans were completely intergral to the plot after ME1, why were they reduced to a couple of lines dialogue and a few add on artifacts in Liaras apartment (that came in a DLC no less!)? 

I get what you're saying about Protheans being important, but how important is a single survivor (for now) in the current ME3 age?

Some people care about the Prothean, some would prefer them, in their game, to stay dead or at least, not playable.... and others won't care either way
 

#3069
Jostle

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Cainne Chapel wrote...

No I get it Jostle, I even understand it.  I'm still amazed by it personally, because most "fans" of stuff I know aren't so easily swayed or jaded.

I've been a Detroit lions fan for 20 years now...granted I dont buy everything lions branded or go or even watch EVERY game, but i've been a consistent fan in those 20 years and we dont exactly have a winning team by the numbers.

I guess i'm just surprised by the amount of suddenly "fair weather" fans the series seems to have drummed up I guess. Maybe its cuz I have a high threshold and it takes more than one average game (DA2) or marketing (which I mostly ignore being IN marketing in a fashion) or even DLC to really rile me.

I also admit I dont think of bioware as some holy game developer either, I just recognize that a LOT of the games they HAVE made, I've enjoyed immensely (BG, BG2, KOTOR, NWN, and so on, though i've never played sonic, MDK2 or shattered steel) So i base my purchases off of that, rather than hype or what not.  So its really hard for me to swear off a whole dev house over a few missteps


I know, man, and I hear you. However, I don't think all these people could be described as easily swayed or jaded. It really hurts when a company and team you've loved for a long time starts to fail you, and then continues to fail you. Hopefully, they can turn themselves around. If ME3 ends up being what I genuinely hope that it's NOT (a terrible experience) then all they'll have left to ruin is Jade Empire... It's not just a couple of missteps, but a totally different path.

Having said all that, I'm sure there are plenty of people for whom this is the first offensive move from Bioware and are up in arms about it. It's just not that way for me, personally. BG, BG2, KOTOR, and NWN are a long time past, my friend, and the fact that they were all such amazing experiences makes me more annoyed at Bioware, not less, because I know what they're capable of.

#3070
Jahannam

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Im not going to boycot, cancel a preorder, whine and cry and stomp my feet.

Im going to say what my mother always said to me when I screwed up...Im not angry at you Bioware, im just disappointed.

I could skip a random human, asari, whatever team member...you know damn well people will be hard pressed to skip a prothean. Kinda shady IMO.

#3071
Blarty

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Confused-Shepard wrote...

Somebody ask BIOWARE if they consider story important anymore or are they content with making shoddy Gears of War ripoffs?


Yay Gears of War .... I got that one on my BSN Rant Thread Bingo card....

#3072
Draconis6666

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Blarty wrote...

Confused-Shepard wrote...

Somebody ask BIOWARE if they consider story important anymore or are they content with making shoddy Gears of War ripoffs?


Yay Gears of War .... I got that one on my BSN Rant Thread Bingo card....


 Do you have Pre Order canceled? cus  you can probably mark that one too

#3073
voteDC

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I can't see how the last member of the race that cracked the secrets of Reaper tech with the Conduit, wrote code to over-ride the Reapers control of the Keepers and the Citadel, delaying the invasion so the events of Mass Effect could happen in the first place, could be considered to be optional or non-essential to the story.

To me this Prothean is absolutely essential to the story as it is only the actions of his race that gave Shepard the chance to stop the Reapers in the first place.

For me that would be the reason that he was made paid content, either by buying the Collectors Edition or the day 1 DLC, because Bioware/EA would know that people would consider such a character essential to the game.

#3074
Cainne Chapel

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Anaeme wrote...

Someone mentioned CDProjekt in this thread...the difference in the way both companies treat their customers is stunning really

Origin vs GOG

Ashes DLC vs Added content in X360 edition

When CDP released The Witcher 2 they did not force people to download it through GOG
When the enchanced edition of The Witcher 2 comes out, PC fans will get all the additional X360 content for free


How did Bioware fall so low? I do not recognize this company anymore. Who are these people?


Yes we all know CDprojekt are the wunderkids.  But even THEY still get pirated... amazing isn't it? 

Fact of the matter is, not ALL companies are going to operate the same.  We dont know the inner workings of each company so you can't even compare them as such as you dont know what goes into each ones costs. 

But do you think CDprojekt, as great a dev as they are, liked having... what? 4.5 million copies of The witcher 2 essentially taken from their bankroll?

and honestly... i never remember Bioware releasing ALL DLC for free like CDP does so... bioware hasn't been CDP...EVER, even back in NWN days

#3075
realguile

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Underpower wrote...

I've been a Detroit lions fan for 20 years now...granted I dont buy everything lions branded or go or even watch EVERY game

Football analogy:

What I see happening is now you have to pay a little bit more to watch the kicking parts of the game. Punts, kickoffs, point afters, etc. You still get offense and defense, but now something that you'd expect to get anyway and could really have an impact on the game is available... for a little more money. It's not getting color commentary for the game for more money, it's part of the game itself, what in the past was included, has been integral to the entire game's past, is now not included... unless you pay more.

Ok. so what? If the NFL decides to do that then that's the NFL. it's their product and they controll it. Would i be bad for business? Hell yes, but guess what? I'd still watch it and so would MILLIONS of others cause we love NFL football.

And the prothian is not intergral as you can play the game without it.