13369 réponses à ce sujet

[fropas]

BobSmith101 wrote...

fropas wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...


To prove that an advertisement is false, a plaintiff must prove five things: (1) a false statement of fact has been made about the advertiser's own or another person's goods, services, or commercial activity; (2) the statement either deceives or has the potential to deceive a substantial portion of its targeted audience; (3) the deception is also likely to affect the purchasing decisions of its audience; (4) the advertising involves goods or services in interstate commerce; and (5) the deception has either resulted in or is likely to result in injury to the plaintiff. The most heavily weighed factor is the advertisement's potential to injure a customer. The injury is usually attributed to money the consumer lost through a purchase that would not have been made had the advertisement not been misleading. False statements can be defined in two ways: those that are false on their face and those that are implicitly false.

Read more: http://www.answers.c...g#ixzz1nEWoskV4

Would you say it was a reasonable expectation that a game you bought would be complete ?

Is ir false though? You can still beat the game with the SE. . .It's not like you can't beat the game. You just can't do it as stylishly as I can because you didn't buy all the features.

That's where everyone is getting it wrong. It's not about being able to complete the game. It's about therer being two versions of the game.

CE - Complete
SE - Complete if you pay £10 (See 5 about injury)

No where on the box as far as I know does it say "this game costs an additional £10 to be the same as the collectors edition" (see 1 and 2)

Three you can take as given since that is what we are talking about.

I suppose you'd have to prove in a court of law how you define complete. . .no where on the box are you promised a prothean squadmate, otherwise yay this is flagrant false advertising.

[Calians]

LinksOcarina wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

fropas wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...


To prove that an advertisement is false, a plaintiff must prove five things: (1) a false statement of fact has been made about the advertiser's own or another person's goods, services, or commercial activity; (2) the statement either deceives or has the potential to deceive a substantial portion of its targeted audience; (3) the deception is also likely to affect the purchasing decisions of its audience; (4) the advertising involves goods or services in interstate commerce; and (5) the deception has either resulted in or is likely to result in injury to the plaintiff. The most heavily weighed factor is the advertisement's potential to injure a customer. The injury is usually attributed to money the consumer lost through a purchase that would not have been made had the advertisement not been misleading. False statements can be defined in two ways: those that are false on their face and those that are implicitly false.

Read more: http://www.answers.c...g#ixzz1nEWoskV4

Would you say it was a reasonable expectation that a game you bought would be complete ?

Is ir false though? You can still beat the game with the SE. . .It's not like you can't beat the game. You just can't do it as stylishly as I can because you didn't buy all the features.

That's where everyone is getting it wrong. It's not about being able to complete the game. It's about therer being two versions of the game.

CE - Complete
SE - Complete if you pay £10 (See 5 about injury)

No where on the box as far as I know does it say "this game costs an additional £10 to be the same as the collectors edition" (see 1 and 2)

Three you can take as given since that is what we are talking about.

Then by this definition, every game coming out in the past five years has been technically illegal, from MMOs to games with DLC.

So yeah, I am still not impressed with the all or nothing stance you have. Mainly because, once again, the game is complete already, and this is extra content as advertised.

wait but you dont pay extra for the MMO unless its an expansion to the main game. last time i checked i didnt pay extra for new instances/etc. in a MMO.

[Descedent]

MakeMineMako wrote...

rumbalumba wrote...

i lvoe how this ha twice the replies of the Demo Feedback thread.


so what did i miss?

Some serious discussion amongst an ocean of bullsh*t.

But the serious discussion is always worth it.

[AlanC9]

GuyIncognito21 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Are they alienating their customer base, or just GuyIncognito21and a few people who agree with him?

We'll find out soon enough how "few" those people are.  It's pretty simple to get a ballpark of how many free copies are floating around.

The fact that this thread is the ungodly lenght it is suggests that it's more than a few people who don't appreciate this nonsense.

Not when so many of the posts in the thread are from you and me and a handful of others.

[Yuoaman]

FlameChucks wrote...

Reading through the forum it has become obvious that we are at a disconnect.

I think at this point we need some clear clarification in regards to the overall argument, because i truly believe that the point has been lost within all the meme's and all of the dry comparisons.

Ultimately i have to ask......because even i have lost my point on the argument, is whether this is a discussion of Day One DLC or the fact that this DLC in particular is really an unnecessary method of banking on a race with which both games have referenced on numerous occasions and are restricting access to this character via payment method?

Mostly the latter, though the former is also an issue.

[Fredvdp]

I was opposed to this when I first heard it even if I have pre-ordered the CE, but I can't judge if this is additional content or not before I play the game. I noticed Zaeed was definitely extra content because it wasn't as well done as all the other character missions and I saw Sebastian was additional content because it didn't take over the lazy design choices from the rest of DA2. My doubts with From Ashes being additional content is that it was accidentally announced ages ago but I guess you just plan that far ahead. I'll just wait and see how it turns out.

[AkiKishi]

AlanC9 wrote...

So "complete" means... what? If it means having all the content, then there's no such thing as a "complete" ME3 until Bio stops releasing DLC for ME3.

You obviously mean something else by "complete." What?

Complete means one version of the game on release.

 What happens after release is completely different.

[GuyIncognito21]

FlameChucks wrote...

Reading through the forum it has become obvious that we are at a disconnect.

I think at this point we need some clear clarification in regards to the overall argument, because i truly believe that the point has been lost within all the meme's and all of the dry comparisons.

Ultimately i have to ask......because even i have lost my point on the argument, is whether this is a discussion of Day One DLC or the fact that this DLC in particular is really an unnecessary method of banking on a race with which both games have referenced on numerous occasions and are restricting access to this character via payment method?

It's both really.  Some people are just opposed on principle to Day 1 DLC.  Others (like me) think Day 1 DLC is tolerable, as long as it's something relatively superfluous (even if cool) and not something vital.

If the Day 1 DLC is something that touches at the very core of the game, though, then it becomes "cut content" DLC, which carries with it the accusation that the developer is essentially withholding part of the actual game and demanding more money for it.

[fropas]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

The additional character may increase your enjoyment of the product but you are not 'entitled' to it.

You may want it, you may believe it would increase your enjoyment of the game or improve your understanding of the lore, may leave feedback about how this affects your personal preferences from one element over another. But you are not entitled to it, they do not have to make it free and the product on offer is the one they are selling. It is not being withheld, it is part of the CE package on offer and offered also via DLC to those who do not want to spend as much money to increase their enjoyment of the game by paying for CE version.

Your life will not be over, walls will not come crashing down and your 'hobby' will still continue if you so wish it to. they did not cut off your air supply or throw your granny in front of a train, They are selling additional content of which people are only kicking a fuss about because it's a prothean and not fact they are selling additional characters in the slightest as extras as always have done.

Your perception and expectation of what impact has on the game making them feel they are entitled to it rather than realising they are actually not entitled at all to have this content for free with all variations. They do not "owe" anyone this additional content, it obviously has no major impact on the story other than mere furthering the enjoyment if present because the story can be completed without him present. It could increase their enjoyment of aforementioned product in which case buy it if wish to see what impact has or just be polite and mention it would increase enjoyment of your experience if was available in SE just like we have been doing in the trial thread.

Do not demand it because you have no right to be supplied with it based on your personal preference or increased enjoyment to see how the character plays out in the game. They do not owe you it and you are not entitled to it. You merely would 'like it' and believe would improve your experience of the game.

Feel I need to repeat this since people tend to not wish to listen to things they don't want to hear even if true.

I would also point out people saying "was cut to sell back to us", it is not actually fact, it is assumption. I debated this in great detail about the Sebastion DLC for DA2 long time ago of which I was more in line with some of the peoples responses in here though with less hyperbole. What we know currently is that they told you it was not cut, that is was still being developed when the game went in for certification. Adding to this the element of the download shown being 800+ MB in size on XBL is different to the Sabastion which was only 50mb (basically in that case unlocked content from the disc). In this case it seems to big to just unlock content on the disc which implies it is not on the disc in first place and backs up the statement mentioned earlier.

Dude Dragonlordz your post is so long. I have ADHD how am I supposed to pay attention that long? I came her to rage! Rawr!

[rainasa]

BobSmith101 wrote...



Irrelevent.

Nothing to do with what he does or does not do only that his files exist on the game disk and you are being charged and additional fee to access them which makes the game disk incomplete.

uh, only certian parts are on the main disk, and they did this exactly with both kasumi and LotSB so this argument really doesnt work.

[Calians]

AlanC9 wrote...

GuyIncognito21 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Are they alienating their customer base, or just GuyIncognito21and a few people who agree with him?

We'll find out soon enough how "few" those people are.  It's pretty simple to get a ballpark of how many free copies are floating around.

The fact that this thread is the ungodly lenght it is suggests that it's more than a few people who don't appreciate this nonsense.

Not when so many of the posts in the thread are from you and me and a handful of others.

If you go around the internet and 3rd party gamer sites theres a lot of blacklash

[Yuoaman]

AlanC9 wrote...

GuyIncognito21 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Are they alienating their customer base, or just GuyIncognito21and a few people who agree with him?

We'll find out soon enough how "few" those people are.  It's pretty simple to get a ballpark of how many free copies are floating around.

The fact that this thread is the ungodly lenght it is suggests that it's more than a few people who don't appreciate this nonsense.

Not when so many of the posts in the thread are from you and me and a handful of others.

I'll reiterate this: the Deception thread also had a handful of regulars who kept the thread going strong, we were still able to convince Bioware to take action.

[LinksOcarina]

FlameChucks wrote...

Reading through the forum it has become obvious that we are at a disconnect.

I think at this point we need some clear clarification in regards to the overall argument, because i truly believe that the point has been lost within all the meme's and all of the dry comparisons.

Ultimately i have to ask......because even i have lost my point on the argument, is whether this is a discussion of Day One DLC or the fact that this DLC in particular is really an unnecessary method of banking on a race with which both games have referenced on numerous occasions and are restricting access to this character via payment method?

It's a mix of both, I think. The problem is its warped beyond belief at this point. 

[nightcobra]

AlanC9 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Would you say it was a reasonable expectation that a game you bought would be complete ?

Sure. And ME3 will be complete.

How do you conclude that ? Playable and complete are not the same thing.

Only the CE will be complete. The SE can be complete for an additional £10.

So "complete" means... what? If it means having all the content, then there's no such thing as a "complete" ME3 until Bio stops releasing DLC for ME3.

You obviously mean something else by "complete." What?

it means that any content and completed features made before and are released at launch except skins/weapons/armor should be included in the main game to be complete. any content developed and released after launch is for all intents and purposes the bonus content that you can pay to get them.

[FlameChucks]

MasterNeo wrote...

There's two facets to this.

1) One is selling a Prothean as separate content for $10 on Day 1. That's a bad business decision that's pissing off the community for reasons of story integrity. People are worried they're going to miss a major piece of the Mass Effect story if they don't get to experience the content behind the Prothean.

Regardless of whether or not the development of the DLC happened after the game was complete, the fact that the full voice acting files already exist in the demo demonstrates the content was already budgeted in advance. It costs a great deal of money to recall all of the voice actors into the studio in separate sessions to do another round of response dialogue for the Prothean. I'd be willing to bet those lines were already recorded in the same sessions along with the main dialogue. For content that was supposedly meant to be included in the Collector's Edition at release all along, it makes no sense to do otherwise. 

So the fact that a Prothean was intended to be behind the Collector's Edition wall, despite it being planned for and created with the main content in the first place, is the problem in itself.

2) The other facet to the problem arises when people defend the first facet of selling the Prothean as separate content by saying:

"It won't have any affect on the main story, or your completion of the game. You're still getting the full Mass Effect experience for $60"

If the discovery of the sole surviving member of the race that sets off the events of the entire series ultimately doesn't affect the main story at all, then Bioware's writing has gone horribly wrong and I worry for the integrity of the main story. 

Now the problem becomes the fact that the Prothean isn't a part of the main story. A being who somehow survived the Reaper's previous universal genocide would no doubt have pivotal information with regards to how the invasion happened before, how the Reapers operate, what their weapons are like, what mistakes were made in fighting them, and how humanity could do better.

As a result, the discovery of one would likely be the turning point of the war.

...But instead we're being told he's not important to the story, and for all intents and purposes, is simply another companion who blends in with the rest of the crew after you complete their side mission.

Seriously, just listen to the audio files. It's almost comical how casually they address the issue of walking around in public with a member of an extinct alien race. 

"What is that!?"

"He's a Prothean"

"...Of course, amazing what they can do with genetic modification these days."

None of it makes sense from the standpoint of story integrity, and when content like this sounds as shoehorned into the plot as it is, it's a safe bet that some businessman went too far this time in pushing exclusivity.

Ultimately, when it comes down to the zealous fighting over the principle of Day 1 DLC, EA/Bioware could have easily sidestepped this whole fiasco if they made the Prothean part of the main story, and instead had James "Jersey Shore" Vega be the DLC character instead.

People would've take it for what it's worth, another optional character with his own backstory whose absence from the main story wouldn't be critically missed, but whose presence would enrich it further for those willing to spend the money.

This is ultimately what has me worried. Many on here are saying it's not a big deal, but to me that doesn't sound like the well planned words of a fan of the series. For me, and for the series in general, story is key. Having a prothean as a squad mate would have huge implications in fighting the Reapers. Ultimately, the key word is "would", because if Bioware simply wrote him into the story as just another member of your squad........then i have to question the overall integrity of the game. 

Almost feels like a Dragon Age 2 situation all over again (granted I still got it but was sorely dissapointed).

[WizenSlinky0]

MasterNeo wrote...

"It won't have any affect on the main story, or your completion of the game. You're still getting the full Mass Effect experience for $60"

If the discovery of the sole surviving member of the race that sets off the events of the entire series ultimately doesn't affect the main story at all, then Bioware's writing has gone horribly wrong and I worry for the integrity of the main story. 

Now the problem becomes the fact that the Prothean isn't a part of the main story. A being who somehow survived the Reaper's previous universal genocide would no doubt have pivotal information with regards to how the invasion happened before, how the Reaper's operate, what their weapons are like, what mistakes were made in fighting them, and how humanity could do better. As a result, the discovery of one would likely be the turning point of the war.

...But instead we're being told he's not important to the story, and for all intents and purposes, is simply another companion who blends in with the rest of the crew after you complete their side mission.

Seriously, just listen to the audio files. It's almost comical how casually they address the issue of walking around in public with a member of an extinct alien race. 

"What is that!?"

"He's a Prothean"

"...Of course, amazing what they can do with genetic modification these days."

None of it makes sense from the standpoint of story integrity, and when content like this sounds as shoehorned into the plot as it is, it's a safe bet that some businessman went too far this time in pushing exclusivity.

Ultimately, when it comes down to the zealous fighting over the principle of Day 1 DLC, EA/Bioware could have easily sidestepped this whole fiasco if they made the Prothean part of the main story, and instead had James "Jersey Shore" Vega be the DLC character instead.

People would've take it for what it's worth, another optional character with his own backstory whose absence from the main story wouldn't be critically missed, but whose presence would enrich it further for those willing to spend the money.

No, the writing hasn't gone wrong (well at least not in the way you mentioned, whether it actually has is another debate). The protheans were important, in ME1. Absolutely everything they were needed for, or we needed to know about them, or that was important to the story...was wrapped up in ME1. The rest is background information and lore similar to what you find in the codex. All very interesting but hardly important to the reapers defeat.

If the protheans really had knowledge of how to defeat the reapers they would have done so.

How the invasion happened before? Already know that. Vigil told us.

How the reapers operate? Already know everything the protheans knew. Vigil told us.

What their weapons are like? We got attacked by one. Spoiler, they used weapons. Weapons we have been reverse engineering. Check one off for knowing about the technology.

What mistakes were made? Oh, look. Vigil again. Remember when he told us how they killed all their leaders, shut down the relays, and indoctrinated the crap out of their friends and family? Ah good times.

How humanity could do better? Seriously? They've already done more than any other race that came before including the protheans. They are beyond needing help from those who have already failed.

[AlanC9]

MasterNeo wrote...

Now the problem becomes the fact that the Prothean isn't a part of the main story. A being who somehow survived the Reaper's previous universal genocide would no doubt have pivotal information with regards to how the invasion happened before, how the Reapers operate, what their weapons are like, what mistakes were made in fighting them, and how humanity could do better.

Really? The Citadel races have already fought a Reaper, destroyed it,  and captured its wreckage. Did the protheans even do as well as that? There's no evidence of it.

[AkiKishi]

fropas wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

fropas wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...


To prove that an advertisement is false, a plaintiff must prove five things: (1) a false statement of fact has been made about the advertiser's own or another person's goods, services, or commercial activity; (2) the statement either deceives or has the potential to deceive a substantial portion of its targeted audience; (3) the deception is also likely to affect the purchasing decisions of its audience; (4) the advertising involves goods or services in interstate commerce; and (5) the deception has either resulted in or is likely to result in injury to the plaintiff. The most heavily weighed factor is the advertisement's potential to injure a customer. The injury is usually attributed to money the consumer lost through a purchase that would not have been made had the advertisement not been misleading. False statements can be defined in two ways: those that are false on their face and those that are implicitly false.

Read more: http://www.answers.c...g#ixzz1nEWoskV4

Would you say it was a reasonable expectation that a game you bought would be complete ?

Is ir false though? You can still beat the game with the SE. . .It's not like you can't beat the game. You just can't do it as stylishly as I can because you didn't buy all the features.

That's where everyone is getting it wrong. It's not about being able to complete the game. It's about therer being two versions of the game.

CE - Complete
SE - Complete if you pay £10 (See 5 about injury)

No where on the box as far as I know does it say "this game costs an additional £10 to be the same as the collectors edition" (see 1 and 2)

Three you can take as given since that is what we are talking about.

I suppose you'd have to prove in a court of law how you define complete. . .no where on the box are you promised a prothean squadmate, otherwise yay this is flagrant false advertising.

Other way around. You are not being told you need to pay an additional £10 on the box for a Prothean to complete the game.

It's false advertising by ommision.

[austinsj82]

One question i'd like answering, is if the prothean was intended as DLC and not complete when the main game was certified, why then was the "extra charecter" promised to purchasers of the Collectors Edition months ago. The SE and CE both launch on the same day, and if they didn't have time to finish it before launch then they would have a lot of pissed off collector's edition purchasers on their hands. It seems that the only explanation is they intentionally either put off finishing the charecter/mission until the game had gone gold so they could justify charging extra, or they finished it beforehand and are blatantly lying about it.. 

[Bluumberry]

Calians wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

GuyIncognito21 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Are they alienating their customer base, or just GuyIncognito21and a few people who agree with him?

We'll find out soon enough how "few" those people are.  It's pretty simple to get a ballpark of how many free copies are floating around.

The fact that this thread is the ungodly lenght it is suggests that it's more than a few people who don't appreciate this nonsense.

Not when so many of the posts in the thread are from you and me and a handful of others.

If you go around the internet and 3rd party gamer sites theres a lot of blacklash

Gee I wonder why. People always moan more when they're unhappy, while the people who don't crae usually stay quiet.

A lot of people who are buying this game don't even have any idea about the dlc and most likely don't care either.

[TheStoner]

Daywalker315 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Would you say it was a reasonable expectation that a game you bought would be complete ?

Sure. And ME3 will be complete.

How do you conclude that ? Playable and complete are not the same thing.

Only the CE will be complete. The SE can be complete for an additional £10.

The guy won't have a measurable impact on the story itself, which means the narrative doesn't change. Ergo, the game is complete with or without him. Whether or not YOU want to hear more about Prothean history as a fan is another matter. If that is important to YOU, then you can buy the DLC. It is not, however, important to the main story of ME3, or it wouldn't be DLC.

Your arguement:
The prothean probably won't change the narrative therfore the game is complete without him.
Your arguement brought to it's logical conclusion:
Removing all but 4 of your ME2 companions would not change the narrative therefore the game is complete without them.

[neo_nille]

Disqusting is what this is. I do not approve..

[rainasa]

Yuoaman wrote...

I'll reiterate this: the Deception thread also had a handful of regulars who kept the thread going strong, we were still able to convince Bioware to take action.

Deception was an aberration against the lore of the entire series as a whole, while this is a debate for releasing content that was made while as they awaited certification as priced DLC. you really cannot compare the two of them.

[fropas]

BobSmith101 wrote...

fropas wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

fropas wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...


To prove that an advertisement is false, a plaintiff must prove five things: (1) a false statement of fact has been made about the advertiser's own or another person's goods, services, or commercial activity; (2) the statement either deceives or has the potential to deceive a substantial portion of its targeted audience; (3) the deception is also likely to affect the purchasing decisions of its audience; (4) the advertising involves goods or services in interstate commerce; and (5) the deception has either resulted in or is likely to result in injury to the plaintiff. The most heavily weighed factor is the advertisement's potential to injure a customer. The injury is usually attributed to money the consumer lost through a purchase that would not have been made had the advertisement not been misleading. False statements can be defined in two ways: those that are false on their face and those that are implicitly false.

Read more: http://www.answers.c...g#ixzz1nEWoskV4

Would you say it was a reasonable expectation that a game you bought would be complete ?

Is ir false though? You can still beat the game with the SE. . .It's not like you can't beat the game. You just can't do it as stylishly as I can because you didn't buy all the features.

That's where everyone is getting it wrong. It's not about being able to complete the game. It's about therer being two versions of the game.

CE - Complete
SE - Complete if you pay £10 (See 5 about injury)

No where on the box as far as I know does it say "this game costs an additional £10 to be the same as the collectors edition" (see 1 and 2)

Three you can take as given since that is what we are talking about.

I suppose you'd have to prove in a court of law how you define complete. . .no where on the box are you promised a prothean squadmate, otherwise yay this is flagrant false advertising.

Other way around. You are not being told you need to pay an additional £10 on the box for a Prothean to complete the game.

It's false advertising by ommision.

Ah yes. You are not being told you need to pay 10$ extra to complete the game you payed 60$ for--because you don't. You can still beat the game for 60$ so that's not omitting anything bt extra content.

[Hardwired]

Calians wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

GuyIncognito21 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Are they alienating their customer base, or just GuyIncognito21and a few people who agree with him?

We'll find out soon enough how "few" those people are.  It's pretty simple to get a ballpark of how many free copies are floating around.

The fact that this thread is the ungodly lenght it is suggests that it's more than a few people who don't appreciate this nonsense.

Not when so many of the posts in the thread are from you and me and a handful of others.

If you go around the internet and 3rd party gamer sites theres a lot of blacklash

And one has to take into account that the amount of players that actually post about these sorts of things are statisticly far less than the ones that can't be bothered with posting. So the number of people that object to this could be substantial.