13369 réponses à ce sujet

[GuyIncognito21]

RiouHotaru wrote...
1) Calling it monetization in order to belittle our argument doesn't help your own.  The "defenders" see them charging for the DLC as perfectly reasonable.  They want compensation for their work.

How is monetization remotely pejorative?  I don't accept that.  They want compensation for their work, and they get it in the form of money (i.e. by monetizing their work).

Unless they're still accepting barter and I can trade them chickens and goats for the game, monetization is exactly what we're discussing.

2) To say he's "unimportant" is also a misnomer.  He doesn't HAVE to be critical to the game's story.  Zaeed, Kasumi, Sebastian and Shale all add to the plot without being core parts of it.  Why can't the Prothean be the same?

Zaeed was free, and Katsumi wasn't ready to go on release.  Also, neither of them were protheans.

3) We have the evidence of the leak which backs up the claim that he's not plot-critical.  I'm not sure what else to tell you at that point.  People swear up and down the leaks are factual, so if it says he's not critical, than he's not.

All that does is shift the argument from "why are they withholding important content" to "what's the point of adding a prothean and not making him important unless it's to extort a bunch of money out of people who are duped into thinking it's important?"

[Heimdall]

_symphony wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
The nature of the Protheans is managing to perform a last act of defiance before they all died off.  I truly don't understand the obsession.

Anyone that cares about Mass Effect's lore will care about the protheans.

Caring is one thing.  This erroneous need for them to be central to the plot is something else entirely.

[RiouHotaru]

_symphony wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
The nature of the Protheans is managing to perform a last act of defiance before they all died off.  I truly don't understand the obsession.

Anyone that cares about Mass Effect's lore will care about the protheans.

Uhhh, I care about the lore, quite a bit.

But I recognize that the Prothean's role in said lore is also at an end.

[nightcobra]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

_symphony wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
The nature of the Protheans is managing to perform a last act of defiance before they all died off.  I truly don't understand the obsession.

Anyone that cares about Mass Effect's lore will care about the protheans.

There's a difference between caring and assuming he's a super-scientist-weapon-Jesus that kills the Reapers for you. 

He has insight. He's not the macguffin/deus ex machina that will save the world for you.

no but like liara i and others mostly want to learn about their culture from the man himself.
it would be like having a living roman centurion that you can talk to about their rome. 

that's why he's important
many people have wondered, how did the protheans live, what were their worlds like, their culture, their history, and now there is a living individual from that time.

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 24 février 2012 - 02:25 .

[RiouHotaru]

GuyIncognito21 wrote...

All that does is shift the argument from "why are they withholding important content" to "what's the point of adding a prothean and not making him important unless it's to extort a bunch of money out of people who are duped into thinking it's important?"

You weren't "duped" into thinking he was important.  At no point has Bioware made ANY claims that the Prothean is important or tied to the plot, etc.  Not once.  Hell, we're STILL waiting on the video they're supposed to release about him in the coming days.

If you really think you were "duped" into believing that he was important, than it's because you personally overstated his importance in your mind because he happened to be a Prothean.

Which isn't any fault of Bioware's.

Modifié par RiouHotaru, 24 février 2012 - 02:23 .

[GuyIncognito21]

RiouHotaru wrote...
You weren't "duped" into thinking he was important.  At no point has Bioware made ANY claims that the Prothean is important or tied to the plot, etc.  Not once.  Hell, we're STILL waiting on the video they're supposed to release about him in the coming days.

I'm not talking about me.  But it's disingenuous to suggest that because Bioware never said the prothean is important, it's not a reasonable assumption for people to make.  Anybody who's played the first two games would be well within their rights to hear there's a prothean character and a return to Eden Prime and assume it was of some importance.

If I buy poisoned meat at the store, I'm not going to be persuaded when the store says, "we didn't say it WASN'T poisoned!"

If Bioware publicly declares the prothean to be of no importance, then we'll talk.

[Heimdall]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

_symphony wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
The nature of the Protheans is managing to perform a last act of defiance before they all died off.  I truly don't understand the obsession.

Anyone that cares about Mass Effect's lore will care about the protheans.

There's a difference between caring and assuming he's a super-scientist-weapon-Jesus that kills the Reapers for you. 

He has insight. He's not the macguffin/deus ex machina that will save the world for you.

no but like liara i and others mostly want to learn about their culture from the man himself.
it would be like having a living roman centurion that you can talk to about their rome. 

Which does not make him integral to the plot.

[_symphony]

Lord Aesir wrote...

_symphony wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
The nature of the Protheans is managing to perform a last act of defiance before they all died off.  I truly don't understand the obsession.

Anyone that cares about Mass Effect's lore will care about the protheans.

Caring is one thing.  This erroneous need for them to be central to the plot is something else entirely.

I haven't seen anyone claiming that it should be central to the plot and neither did I.  I did say that having a prothean alive without being part of the main plot is increible, looks like there's never middle ground, or prothy has the spotlight or is cast aside in a DLC.

Modifié par _symphony, 24 février 2012 - 02:28 .

[Heimdall]

GuyIncognito21 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...
You weren't "duped" into thinking he was important.  At no point has Bioware made ANY claims that the Prothean is important or tied to the plot, etc.  Not once.  Hell, we're STILL waiting on the video they're supposed to release about him in the coming days.

I'm not talking about me.  But it's disingenuous to suggest that because Bioware never said the prothean is important, it's not a reasonable assumption for people to make.  Anybody who's played the first two games would be well within their rights to hear there's a prothean character and a return to Eden Prime and assume it was of some importance.

If I buy poisoned meat at the store, I'm not going to be persuaded when the store says, "we didn't say it WASN'T poisoned!"

If Bioware publicly declares the prothean to be of no importance, then we'll talk.

The Protheans are dead and their last plan was the plot of ME1.  A straggling survivor means nothing.  It would perhaps be reasonable to suggest that he could be important to the plot.  It would be unreasonable to behave as if he MUST be integral to the plot or that Bioware has ever spoken of the Prothean as integral to the plot.

[Aggie Punbot]

234 pages in one day?! For a second I thought this thread was about Deception.

[ZX12r Ninja]

FSOAH wrote...

ZX12r Ninja wrote...

Protheans are important?

* Protheans were a space fearing species who lived 50.000 years ago,
* they dind't build the relays and they didn't build the Citadel,
* their technology was mostly based on stuff left behind from other species from other cycles,
* they were the last victims of this cycle which is going on,
* they were attacked by the Reapers,
* because of problems of harvesting them the Reapers re purposed them as the collectors and they now serve/used to serve the Reapers.
* Shepard wiped them out in ME2.

The Reapers have been at it for milions of years, every 50.000 years would add upto hundreds maybe thousands of species, do we also need information on those? We know just about everything we need to know about the Protheans, now what about them Reapers?

Didn't you play ME1 or 2?

I did but don't seem to understand the relevance of you question towards my post  Is there anything you have to add to what I said or are you just curious about my gaming history?

[GuyIncognito21]

Lord Aesir wrote...
The Protheans are dead and their last plan was the plot of ME1.  A straggling survivor means nothing.

We disagree, then.  To me a survivor means precisely that they protheans are NOT dead and that they still have something to say.

You can't use Mass Effect lore to diminish a revelation that completely turns that very lore on its head.

[ArkkAngel007]

GuyIncognito21 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...
You weren't "duped" into thinking he was important.  At no point has Bioware made ANY claims that the Prothean is important or tied to the plot, etc.  Not once.  Hell, we're STILL waiting on the video they're supposed to release about him in the coming days.

I'm not talking about me.  But it's disingenuous to suggest that because Bioware never said the prothean is important, it's not a reasonable assumption for people to make.  Anybody who's played the first two games would be well within their rights to hear there's a prothean character and a return to Eden Prime and assume it was of some importance.

If I buy poisoned meat at the store, I'm not going to be persuaded when the store says, "we didn't say it WASN'T poisoned!"

If Bioware publicly declares the prothean to be of no importance, then we'll talk.

There would be tangible evidence that the meat is poisoned though.  There has been no evidence that this DLC is of any importance (evidence to the contrary though!), just  assumptions.

And they have stated, both through Gamble and Jessica, that the Prothean isn't important to the game proper.  Practically everything you gain, minus a bonus squad mate and play area, is available to you in the main game.  You get the same lore, and the same core experience.  It's just presented in a different fashion.

[Heimdall]

_symphony wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

_symphony wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
The nature of the Protheans is managing to perform a last act of defiance before they all died off.  I truly don't understand the obsession.

Anyone that cares about Mass Effect's lore will care about the protheans.

Caring is one thing.  This erroneous need for them to be central to the plot is something else entirely.

I haven't seen anyone claiming that it should be central to the plot and neither did I.  I did say that having a prothean alive without being part of the main plot is increible, looks like there's never middle ground, or prothy has the spotlight or is cast aside in a DLC.

The DLC is the middleground, there is no reason the DLC must be irrelevant.  There is also no reason he must be part of the main plot whatsoever save for the whims of a number of fans.  He's a single straggler that had no part in even the Ilos plan.  Some fans just put far too much weight in him being a Prothean.

[RiouHotaru]

GuyIncognito21 wrote...

I'm not talking about me.  But it's disingenuous to suggest that because Bioware never said the prothean is important, it's not a reasonable assumption for people to make.  Anybody who's played the first two games would be well within their rights to hear there's a prothean character and a return to Eden Prime and assume it was of some importance.

If I buy poisoned meat at the store, I'm not going to be persuaded when the store says, "we didn't say it WASN'T poisoned!"

If Bioware publicly declares the prothean to be of no importance, then we'll talk.

Uhhh, actually, it isn't a reasonable assumption.  Again, simply him being a Prothean doesn't actually mean he's suddenly super special.  It would be more reasonable AND more prudent to wait for more information before making any kind of judgment call.  You don't make a decision with so little information.

And once again a poor analogy is picked.  If you buy bad meat and get food poisoning, then it's equal parts the store's fault AND your own.

And Bioware can't say anything specific about the Prothean.  Mike's only made general statements (that we'll be impressed by the work done on the character) about it.

And again, you assume it has to be of no importance, or all-importance.  If Bioware came out and said "He's a great character with good development, but not important to the plot", then what?

[GnusmasTHX]

The problem is people using important and integral interchangeably.

Importance can vary. He has a lot of lore, so he's important to me. Content well-worth paying for.

He's not going to win the war for me, and has no effect on my ending, so isn't integral to the game.

[GuyIncognito21]

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

There would be tangible evidence that the meat is poisoned though.  There has been no evidence that this DLC is of any importance (evidence to the contrary though!), just  assumptions.

Reasonable assumptions, which is exactly like my reasonable assumption that when I buy food from you it's not going to kill me.

And they have stated, both through Gamble and Jessica, that the Prothean isn't important to the game proper.  Practically everything you gain, minus a bonus squad mate and play area, is available to you in the main game.  You get the same lore, and the same core experience.  It's just presented in a different fashion.

If that's true then why in God's name are they charging $10 for it?!?

[RiouHotaru]

GuyIncognito21 wrote...

If that's true then why in God's name are they charging $10 for it?!?

Why NOT?  He's DLC.  He's a character, a mission, a weapon and an appearance pack rolled into one package.  That's about 10 bucks worth.

[CommanderCoffee]

GuyIncognito21 wrote...

And they have stated, both through Gamble and Jessica, that the Prothean isn't important to the game proper.  Practically everything you gain, minus a bonus squad mate and play area, is available to you in the main game.  You get the same lore, and the same core experience.  It's just presented in a different fashion.

If that's true then why in God's name are they charging $10 for it?!?

Because that's how the market system works! You pay money for a good or service!

[GnusmasTHX]

GuyIncognito21 wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

There would be tangible evidence that the meat is poisoned though.  There has been no evidence that this DLC is of any importance (evidence to the contrary though!), just  assumptions.

Reasonable assumptions, which is exactly like my reasonable assumption that when I buy food from you it's not going to kill me.

And they have stated, both through Gamble and Jessica, that the Prothean isn't important to the game proper.  Practically everything you gain, minus a bonus squad mate and play area, is available to you in the main game.  You get the same lore, and the same core experience.  It's just presented in a different fashion.

If that's true then why in God's name are they charging $10 for it?!?

I don't know. Maybe they hired a voice actor to do a bunch of lines and made the artists design, model and animate him along with the areas he takes you.

[Heimdall]

GuyIncognito21 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
The Protheans are dead and their last plan was the plot of ME1.  A straggling survivor means nothing.

We disagree, then.  To me a survivor means precisely that they protheans are NOT dead and that they still have something to say.

You can't use Mass Effect lore to diminish a revelation that completely turns that very lore on its head.

A SINGLE survivor means nothing.  A single survivor cannot restart a species.  They are, for all intents and purposes, extinct.  That does not turn lore on it's head.  He can give you a few codex entries on their culture, that is all.  It's little differant than having Tali tell you about the Quarians except in this case their all dead and the information has no practical application.

[GuyIncognito21]

RiouHotaru wrote...
And Bioware can't say anything specific about the Prothean.

I'm sorry, what?  Whose policy is that?  If Bioware isn't even calling the shots in its own studios, that raises an entirely new set of concerns.  Believe it or not, my perception of EA is immeasurably worse than my perception of BW.

EA is everything soulless and wrong, and the only reason I even consider buying ME is on the assumption that BW have largely been allowed discretion.

[rainasa]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Uhhh, actually, it isn't a reasonable assumption.  Again, simply him being a Prothean doesn't actually mean he's suddenly super special.  It would be more reasonable AND more prudent to wait for more information before making any kind of judgment call.  You don't make a decision with so little information.

And once again a poor analogy is picked.  If you buy bad meat and get food poisoning, then it's equal parts the store's fault AND your own.

And Bioware can't say anything specific about the Prothean.  Mike's only made general statements (that we'll be impressed by the work done on the character) about it.

And again, you assume it has to be of no importance, or all-importance.  If Bioware came out and said "He's a great character with good development, but not important to the plot", then what?

then we laugh awkwardly and start whistling  as we begin to slowly walk offstage :lol::lol:

in all seriousness though, all this converstation is totally useless untill tommorow where from ashes is offically announced and we get definite information.

Modifié par rainasa, 24 février 2012 - 02:38 .

[GnusmasTHX]

This is what happens when people who don't know who are what he is argue with people who do.

Spoiler trigger finger itching...

[ArkkAngel007]

GuyIncognito21 wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

There would be tangible evidence that the meat is poisoned though.  There has been no evidence that this DLC is of any importance (evidence to the contrary though!), just  assumptions.

Reasonable assumptions, which is exactly like my reasonable assumption that when I buy food from you it's not going to kill me.

And they have stated, both through Gamble and Jessica, that the Prothean isn't important to the game proper.  Practically everything you gain, minus a bonus squad mate and play area, is available to you in the main game.  You get the same lore, and the same core experience.  It's just presented in a different fashion.

If that's true then why in God's name are they charging $10 for it?!?

I have nothing against assumptions unless they are wrong.  Then the *** out of you and me thing comes into play.  My point was that while you are entitled to your assumption, as we all are, there was evidence to the contrary and it has been given mulitple times now, and people still turn away and refuse to acknowledge it for the sake of keeping their argument alive.

As for the price, I've made it clear I'm displeased with it, as with the whole situation regarding specifically how the DLC has been handled.