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Mass Effect 3: From Ashes


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#6926
Blarty

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sp0ck 06 wrote...

My real issue isn't the day 1 DLC, its how the heck is a Prothean squadmate not essential to the main storyline?


Is him being a squadmate essential to the storyline, or his presence within the story - there are many people saying that not having the Prothean squadmate DLC does not mean that the Prothean does not factor in the story.

In fact I'm going to see if they're goint have a Conrad Verner squadmate DLC and see if people think not having him as a squadmate means he's completely missing from the game entirely.

Bioware's biggest issue is not being clear on the situation for the sake of keeping spoilers away, because we now how well BSN deals with spoilers.

#6927
Blarty

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Rdubs wrote...

heart again wrote...

Rdubs wrote...

I agree with you in principle - if the Prothean squaddie basically has nothing to say, and doesn't go into his story, and just shoots people saying "target down", then yeah what's the big deal.  But if it's a character who by joining you can talk to and get story out of - and I don't see how that WON'T be possible seeing as how he comes with his own mission - then it's important lore content and at that point it crosses the line into something which should be included with the main game.


Did you miss DJBare's spoiler post a little while back?


I read it, and how does it make up for the content you won't be experiencing with him during such events as his mission?


It makes the point regarding missing out on significant prothean lore much less of an issue.

#6928
Rdubs

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Okay two final things here then I'm signing off.
First, as I mentioned I bought the CE this doesn't affect me personally but it is screwed up for those who are as big as ME fans as I am, that they will have to pay extra to get the same full-game experience. BUT, a lot of people here seem to have the attitude of "I bought the CE and paid extra, so all the rest of you should have to pay extra if you want the same content I have." There's only one word for that: Dick.
Second, you don't need to sacrifice not playing the game in order to send a message to Bioware. Instead, do this: At first, rent the game from something like Gamefly.com. They've already bought whatever copies of it they're going to buy. Then, later on as used copies start to appear in retail, just buy a used copy. You'll still have to pay the $10 for the DLC, but that's the only cash Bioware will be directly getting. Yes I understand if you buy from any retailer that cash goes to the retailer, but it then goes to Bioware as the retailed replenishes stock. Renting it first then buying it used avoids this feedback cycle, sends a message and also lets you play the game.

#6929
PSUHammer

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Evilelf007 wrote...

If you think that the cost of bonus content was not factored into the price of the CE, you're fooling yourself! Even the digital deluxe edition has the cost...yet they don't get the physical collectibles. That tells you that the bonus content has a cost. Always does!


Logical discussion of this topic is not allowed!  Shhhh!!  

;)

Modifié par Hammer6767, 24 février 2012 - 01:57 .


#6930
GnusmasTHX

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Rdubs wrote...

Okay two final things here then I'm signing off. 
First, as I mentioned I bought the CE this doesn't affect me personally but it is screwed up for those who are as big as ME fans as I am, that they will have to pay extra to get the same full-game experience. BUT, a lot of people here seem to have the attitude of "I bought the CE and paid extra, so all the rest of you should have to pay extra if you want the same content I have." There's only one word for that: Dick.
.

 

So the content you paid for should be free to others?

Or should I phrase it this way, the content BioWare charged you for, they should give free to others?

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 24 février 2012 - 01:57 .


#6931
Blarty

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BobSmith101 wrote...

Evilelf007 wrote...

You shouldn't HAVE to pay for dlc on day one? Nobody said you did HAVE to in the first place!

Though if you WANT the Prothean and mission, you will then HAVE to pay for it, just as those who paid for the CE did.

We already chose to pay for it, you can still say screw it and do without and not have any affect on game completeness.


You do if you want the complete game. As in everything available in day 1.

You never paid for it. It was listed as "bonus" you only paid for those items listed as "exclusive"

You have no right to say what is or is not complete.That's down to either the definition of the word or the legal interpretation of the word. Now the legal one I'm not sure of I'm pursing it. However. 

[color=#333333">having all parts or elements]lacking[/color] nothing; [color=#333333">whole]entire;[/color] [color=#333333">full: a complete set ]of[/color] Mark Twain's writings.

By that definition ME3 SE is not complete.


Sorry about that either have to going to highlight or look up your own definition of complete.


By that definition no game, certainly of this generation is......

#6932
nitefyre410

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Rdubs wrote...

Okay two final things here then I'm signing off.
First, as I mentioned I bought the CE this doesn't affect me personally but it is screwed up for those who are as big as ME fans as I am, that they will have to pay extra to get the same full-game experience. BUT, a lot of people here seem to have the attitude of "I bought the CE and paid extra, so all the rest of you should have to pay extra if you want the same content I have." There's only one word for that: Dick.
Second, you don't need to sacrifice not playing the game in order to send a message to Bioware. Instead, do this: At first, rent the game from something like Gamefly.com. They've already bought whatever copies of it they're going to buy. Then, later on as used copies start to appear in retail, just buy a used copy. You'll still have to pay the $10 for the DLC, but that's the only cash Bioware will be directly getting. Yes I understand if you buy from any retailer that cash goes to the retailer, but it then goes to Bioware as the retailed replenishes stock. Renting it first then buying it used avoids this feedback cycle, sends a message and also lets you play the game.

 

^  exactly what I'm going to be doing from now on with BIoware games...

Kind sucks for the PC players they don't really have that option.

#6933
Rdubs

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Blarty wrote...

Rdubs wrote...

heart again wrote...

Rdubs wrote...

I agree with you in principle - if the Prothean squaddie basically has nothing to say, and doesn't go into his story, and just shoots people saying "target down", then yeah what's the big deal.  But if it's a character who by joining you can talk to and get story out of - and I don't see how that WON'T be possible seeing as how he comes with his own mission - then it's important lore content and at that point it crosses the line into something which should be included with the main game.


Did you miss DJBare's spoiler post a little while back?


I read it, and how does it make up for the content you won't be experiencing with him during such events as his mission?


It makes the point regarding missing out on significant prothean lore much less of an issue.


No, because going back to Eden Prime and the resulting dialogue with the Prothean cannot be replaced by Codex or just talking to the guy in a huge dialogue sequence or two.  Even if the same CONTENT is covered, it's still a different EXPERIENCE, and people are playing to have an awesome experience.

I see it as the non-DLC interaction is basically mitigation for not getting the full package.

#6934
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obie191970 wrote...
You got the Stone Prisoner, but they did the same thing with Warden's Keep which was included in the CE and $7 for everyone else as day 1 DLC.  Not only had the precedent been sent by Bioware, they told everyone that the bonus character and mission would be available as Day 1 DLC to those who didn't purchase the CE.

Warden's Keep didn't include a recruitable squad member -- it was a short mission that was seperate from the main story and didn't effect the overall experience of the game; a big difference compared to The Stone Prisoner DLC that included Shale who was part of your team for the rest of the entire game. Don't you see the difference between offering a side-mission, that you finish and then move on, and offering a squad member? These games are build around the player's crew -- they are such a big part of the experience. And this is a Prothean! A member of an immensly interesting and mysterious race. That's why I have a problem with not everyone getting this guy by default.

And what exactly *are* we getting with our standard version? We got The Stone Prisoner with DA:O and The Cerberus Network with ME2... BioWare set that precedent, too. So, what are we getting with ME3? The multiplayer component. Right.

Modifié par Lorfean, 24 février 2012 - 01:59 .


#6935
ZX12r Ninja

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BobSmith101 wrote...

Evilelf007 wrote...

You shouldn't HAVE to pay for dlc on day one? Nobody said you did HAVE to in the first place!

Though if you WANT the Prothean and mission, you will then HAVE to pay for it, just as those who paid for the CE did.

We already chose to pay for it, you can still say screw it and do without and not have any affect on game completeness.


You do if you want the complete game. As in everything available in day 1.

You never paid for it. It was listed as "bonus" you only paid for those items listed as "exclusive"

You have no right to say what is or is not complete.That's down to either the definition of the word or the legal interpretation of the word. Now the legal one I'm not sure of I'm pursing it. However. 

[color=#333333">having all parts or elements]lacking[/color] nothing; [color=#333333">whole]entire;[/color] [color=#333333">full: a complete set ]of[/color] Mark Twain's writings.

By that definition ME3 SE is not complete.


Sorry about that either have to going to highlight or look up your own definition of complete.


By your logic a car which isn't fully optioned is not complete, a house without a pool is not complete, a computer without an SSD and highend graphics card is not complete, a console without all it's accesories is not complete, a meal without desert is not complete, etc. etc. etc. etc.

If you didn't get what is advertised then it's not complete, else it is!

#6936
PaulSX

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Lorfean wrote...

DJBare wrote...

ohnoyoudidnt wrote...

the people who are defending this business practice are hilarious

You might find it hilarious, but I find it sad that some folk are going to miss out the final of an epic trilogy due to their stubborn pride, Bioware is not depriving them of food or meds, they are not depriving them of water, in fact they are not depriving them of anything, SE owners can still purchase the DLC.

We shouldn't have to purchase the DLC -- that's the problem here! They are charging us for content that we received for free when we purchased the standard editions of Dragon Age: Origins (The Stone Prisoner) and Mass Effect 2 (The Cerberus Network).

And that's why I won't be buying the game. I absolutely hate the idea of missing out on the final chapter of the trilogy, but it's completely unacceptable to me that they charge me $ 10,- on top of the $ 60,- I'm already paying for the game in order get the "full experience". And their argument that longtime fans are more likely to buy the CE anyway is bull**** -- I've been buying their games since 1998, when Baldur's Gate came out, I am a longtime fan and loyal costumer and I've simply never been interested in the CE's because all they offered was "fluff" (art books, sound tracks, miniatures, etc.). Some people love that fluff, love collecting it and putting it on display, and that's great -- more power to them -- but that's not me. And that fact doesn't make me any less of a longtime fan.

And I don't care if the scope of the DLC is more along the lines of Zaeed (minimal) instead of Shale (expansive and awesome) -- it's a freaking Prothean squad member and a mission to Eden Prime! It's obviously lore-centric content with great nostalgic potential that ANY Mass Effect fan would be interested in.


I think the better way is just waiting the price drop for DDE and you do not need to miss the final chapter of Shepard. BTW, Bioware is not an independent company like they were years ago and their main goal is to make profits for their bosses no matter the players like or not.

#6937
Evilelf007

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Sorry if I have always believed in the mantra, you get what you pay for.

#6938
Errationatus

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Wow.  The madness rolls on...

Well, I pre-ordered the CE.  It cost me about a hundred bucks.  That's cool, I knew what I was getting, I know what I want out of my ME3 experience.  It's the same reason I buy Criterion editions of movies I really like, to get as much content for my dollar as possible - to have a definitive version.  The definitive versions are usually the versions that cost more.  They're shiny.  They have that new gun smell.  They offer more so they cost more.  Simple. Logical.  Most reasonable people would agree with this.  

The SE is the standard edition.  It's the main game.  It's the finished game certified, pressed and released (
*X-Files music here* or so those lying sonsob!tches would have us believe).  It does not, however, have the bells and whistles.  People know this.  Hence "Standard Edition."  There is no mystery unless you're a moron. That's why it's 60 bucks.  It's the game and that's all it is. That's all you get and you know that going in - unless you're a moron.

If the DLC had never been released for either version, we would all think that that was all there was, and we'd be right. But no, EA/BW are sitting in their steel towers laughing and rubbing their hands together thinking up new ways to screw the peons because they've nothing better to do, will never be found out, never called to the mat for it.  Next they'll be demanding our wimmens for an extra week of MP.  Future games will demand contracts signed with a bloody thumbprint.

Gawddamned diabolical geniuses!  (...and not the nerds and 'puter junkies they really are...nevermind)

So, if SE buyers suddenly demanded the N7 fabric patch and the soundtrack for free because the CE buyers are getting extra content - and whether it's gameplay or not that's exactly what it is - content - would it seem more righteous then?  Would the principle of the thing be more justified if the SE folks were demanding that swag?  The argument would then swiftly degenerate into, "Well, how come my box is plastic, but he done got the tin?  It's class warfare!"  Y'all know this would happen.

So, no.  I paid a hundred bucks for all this extra.  That includes the stupid Prothean, whether he's integral to the plot or not. If anyone deserves the extra content it's me, BECAUSE I LEGITIMATELY PAID FOR IT.  It don't look "free" from where I'm sitting.  Those who self-righteously demand it for free under the guise of some "glorious cause to free gamers from corporate bondage" are full of sh!t and they know it.  These are in the same league as those folks who use the same cretinous logic demanding the "right" to have automatic weapons and armor-piercing bullets for "deer hunting".  Yeah. Right.  The hell.

I can just as easily add that I'm also paying that hundred bucks to get MP I do not want, MP content I have no interest in but have to pay for anyway. Maybe they should give everyone who does not want the MP content that content for free - and those who want it can pay for it, or give us the option of not having it included at all and knock 10 bucks off the price. Whattaya think about that?  Is that fair? 

No - that's as fair as people thinking they "deserve" Prothy for nothing simply because it was offered as 1stDay DLC and you've got your knickers in a twist because it offends your delicate sensibilities.  I don't want multiplayer in my game, but I have to pay for it anyway to get the whole game.  It is not fvcking optional at all.  I can't opt out, that bit will still be talking up real estate on my HD.  I'm stuck with what is to me a waste of damn money for a game mode I am not going to play.  I can easily make a case for MP being forced on me and stealing money from my pocket, but that's the way it goes.  I won't be spending any money on the rest of the ME3 DLC - of which 99% of will be MP maps and bullsh!t, anyway.  That's the only satisfaction I can get for this.

If the Prothean character is what BW says it is - by some wild oh-so-improbable miracle - if he is simply a walking codex like Tali was in the first ME, then all of this is going to make all of you "We deserve this because we're angry we was suddenly gyped" look like serious d!ckheads - and you will deserve it.  I don't hear anyone in this thread screaming about pre-order bonuses being denied them.  Well?  Start self-righteously demanding those for free too!  The hell you waiting for?

Every time I see one of these specious and fatuous "arguments" for why y'all so suddenly damn entitled all I can hear is that volus on the Citadel going, "well, she could have taken my chit,".

Simply because that's what this all boils down to, and if Bioware were smart, they'd just adopt the notion of "Well, it looks like we've offended the SE buyers, we're sorry, so we'll withdraw the offer and this DLC."  Hell, they can take it out of my CE version.  Just leave me the guns and armor-whatever, and I'm fine with it.  That way no one has it and no one misses anything.  We all have the same game then, don't we?  Don't we?

You don't get your "blood money", Bioware, and the rest of us don't have to be plagued by this nonsense.  Just offer it a year from now for 8 bucks, and we'll see if it matters so bloody much then.

Modifié par JakeMacDon, 24 février 2012 - 02:06 .


#6939
GnusmasTHX

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Evilelf007 wrote...

Sorry if I have always believed in the mantra, you get what you pay for.


But what if you're the 9001 customer and they want to give you a free train?!

#6940
Kithrus

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suntzuxi wrote...

Lorfean wrote...

DJBare wrote...

ohnoyoudidnt wrote...

the people who are defending this business practice are hilarious

You might find it hilarious, but I find it sad that some folk are going to miss out the final of an epic trilogy due to their stubborn pride, Bioware is not depriving them of food or meds, they are not depriving them of water, in fact they are not depriving them of anything, SE owners can still purchase the DLC.

We shouldn't have to purchase the DLC -- that's the problem here! They are charging us for content that we received for free when we purchased the standard editions of Dragon Age: Origins (The Stone Prisoner) and Mass Effect 2 (The Cerberus Network).

And that's why I won't be buying the game. I absolutely hate the idea of missing out on the final chapter of the trilogy, but it's completely unacceptable to me that they charge me $ 10,- on top of the $ 60,- I'm already paying for the game in order get the "full experience". And their argument that longtime fans are more likely to buy the CE anyway is bull**** -- I've been buying their games since 1998, when Baldur's Gate came out, I am a longtime fan and loyal costumer and I've simply never been interested in the CE's because all they offered was "fluff" (art books, sound tracks, miniatures, etc.). Some people love that fluff, love collecting it and putting it on display, and that's great -- more power to them -- but that's not me. And that fact doesn't make me any less of a longtime fan.

And I don't care if the scope of the DLC is more along the lines of Zaeed (minimal) instead of Shale (expansive and awesome) -- it's a freaking Prothean squad member and a mission to Eden Prime! It's obviously lore-centric content with great nostalgic potential that ANY Mass Effect fan would be interested in.


I think the better way is just waiting the price drop for DDE and you do not need to miss the final chapter of Shepard. BTW, Bioware is not an independent company like they were years ago and their main goal is to make profits for their bosses no matter the players like or not.


Except this is not a car this is Software. You can't compare all products to each other.

#6941
heart again

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Evilelf007 wrote...

Sorry if I have always believed in the mantra, you get what you pay for.


Amen to that.

And people ask me why I pay for certain American made products....

#6942
Rdubs

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GnusmasTHX wrote...

 

Rdubs wrote...

Okay two final things here then I'm signing off. 
First, as I mentioned I bought the CE this doesn't affect me personally but it is screwed up for those who are as big as ME fans as I am, that they will have to pay extra to get the same full-game experience. BUT, a lot of people here seem to have the attitude of "I bought the CE and paid extra, so all the rest of you should have to pay extra if you want the same content I have." There's only one word for that: Dick.
.

 

So the content you paid for should be free to others?

Or should I phrase it this way, the content BioWare charged you for, they should give free to others?


Thank you Gnusmas for bring up a great point!
When I bought the CE it was just because I loved the series so much I was willing to pay a little extra for a silly dog running around and whatever other crap came with it.  I didn't even look and see all that came with it, I just knew I wanted to support Bioware for such a great production.  I was mostly thinking about the tangibles and things, not content critical to my enjoyment of the full game.
And to answer your question directly, I want EVERYONE who enjoys Mass Effect lore to be able to have the same full experience with the game as I do.  The DLC character I was expecting was basically Zaeed 2.0, who I would ignore.  Or maybe another romance option - I certainly wasn't expecting a prothean.  Everyone should have access to that as it is a critical part of the ME lore.

#6943
OdanUrr

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NoxJuked wrote...

I think almost everyone would agree day 1 DLC that comes out and was worked on while the core game was being worked on is bad. Bioware came out and said that this DLC was worked on while the core game was trying to go gold already, which means they worked on it after. As for the 9 month ago leaks, was most likely just the idea pitched in the office etc it doesn't mean they were working on it unless you have proof? Right none of us do so anything that goes against what Bioware said about the DLC so far feels like a conspiracy theory about how EA/Bioware is trying to milk the consumer for more money.

Do I fully believe either side though, no. I will hold rage until after the game is out and determine if they really swindled me for money, if they did oh well 10$ can't ****ing regret it I won't buy another game but this scenario is very doubtful as they have provided great DLC, multiplayer, and 3 fantastic games I have bought from them ME1, 2, and Dragon Age: Origins.


The way I see it, there are a number of possibilities for this slip and subsequent correction.

1) It was an unintended leak that was still very much an early concept. In that case, when they later rectified it to "Additional character and mission" they must have had some other character and mission that they knew would be ready for launch. Otherwise, those who bought the CE would have found themselves with no additional character or mission.

2) It was an unintended leak but Bioware knew early on it would be ready for launch. This option is the one's that rubbing a lot of people the wrong way because it certainly is one way to interpret the data (if you disregard the more recent statements from Bioware that say they weren't certain they could meet the release date).

3) It was an intended leak to garner fan reaction on the idea of a Prothean squadmate but was handled poorly, leaving some fans to speculate whether this was actually true or not. Fast-forward 9 months later and we are having this discussion.

4) It was an unintended leak that was still very much an early concept, but it was decided to leave the "Additional character and mission" line since the content would be available some time after release date. Still, the development team tried to meet the deadline to release it as Day One DLC to surprise the fans. Apparently, they succeeded.;)

5) Any other possibilities?:happy:

#6944
Blarty

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NoxJuked wrote...

I think almost everyone would agree day 1 DLC that comes out and was worked on while the core game was being worked on is bad.


I wouldn't, because your frame of reference is ambiguous -
  • Who worked on it?
  • At what point was it worked on in the overall project cycle and these people's schedules?
  • Had they completed their parts of the core game project?
  • Were they doing this instead of bugfixing their code?
  • Were they desigining DLC when they were supposed to be supporting testing and Q&A?
I think everyone would agree, however, that Day 1 DLC is a poison chalice as you will never convince anyone that the core game did not suffer, and you will not convince people that because these things were able to be developed in parallel without sufference to either deliverable, that they should not be released as a singular whole.

It's like developing a piece of software to do some great things with email, and developing a connector to MS Outlook and another one for Gmail alongside it, once the core part of the system is ready, and then assuming you buy the core application and you get the plugins for free because it was available when the core system is released.

Modifié par Blarty, 24 février 2012 - 02:06 .


#6945
Guest_Lorfean_*

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GnusmasTHX wrote...

Well unfortunately if they decided that Prothean and his mission are now free for everyone, it still MUST be a new character and mission in the first "real" DLC. BW advertised it as such.

Like "Kasumi - Stolen Memory"? That's fine. That was offered as regular DLC some time after the release of the game and it was up to each individual player whether they were interested in it or not.

#6946
OdanUrr

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Our_Last_Scene wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

No because the LEAK told us it was a Prothean. He never denied the prothean he just said [/i]that information was old text that is getting removed.

Then, a few days later, they revealed the new text, which confirmed everything that was leaked, it just never stated that it was a Prothean like the [i]old text that got removed did.


If the old leaked text says we're getting a DLC prothean/mission, and the new text says we're getting a DLC character/mission, then it's not exactly rocket science to piece 2 and 2 together.


Ah, but we're down to what I've been trying to say all along: there was no official statement on this. Putting two and two together implies guesswork. Indeed, the expression means "to guess the truth about a situation from what you have seen or heard." Thus, any argument suggesting I should have guessed the bonus squadmate would be a Prothean in order to buy the CE doesn't really hold water.


Yeah there was no official statement on it. The official reveal was slated for later today I think.

Bioware never suggested you should guess the bonus squaddie was a prothy, in fact they never suggested anything about the bonus squaddie at all.


I wasn't talking about Bioware. I was referring to people in this thread arguing that if you didn't guess the Prothean would be the bonus squadmate, then tough luck.

#6947
Blarty

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Rdubs wrote...

Blarty wrote...

Rdubs wrote...

heart again wrote...

Rdubs wrote...

I agree with you in principle - if the Prothean squaddie basically has nothing to say, and doesn't go into his story, and just shoots people saying "target down", then yeah what's the big deal.  But if it's a character who by joining you can talk to and get story out of - and I don't see how that WON'T be possible seeing as how he comes with his own mission - then it's important lore content and at that point it crosses the line into something which should be included with the main game.


Did you miss DJBare's spoiler post a little while back?


I read it, and how does it make up for the content you won't be experiencing with him during such events as his mission?


It makes the point regarding missing out on significant prothean lore much less of an issue.


No, because going back to Eden Prime and the resulting dialogue with the Prothean cannot be replaced by Codex or just talking to the guy in a huge dialogue sequence or two.  Even if the same CONTENT is covered, it's still a different EXPERIENCE, and people are playing to have an awesome experience.

I see it as the non-DLC interaction is basically mitigation for not getting the full package.


And it's also an experience that not everyone will understand the implications of, or have the same ties that you have to it..... 

#6948
heart again

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Rdubs wrote...

  The DLC character I was expecting was basically Zaeed 2.0, who I would ignore.  Or maybe another romance option - I certainly wasn't expecting a prothean.  


How is such an assumption a valid point at all?

#6949
obie191970

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Lorfean wrote...

obie191970 wrote...
You got the Stone Prisoner, but they did the same thing with Warden's Keep which was included in the CE and $7 for everyone else as day 1 DLC.  Not only had the precedent been sent by Bioware, they told everyone that the bonus character and mission would be available as Day 1 DLC to those who didn't purchase the CE.

Warden's Keep didn't include a recruitable squad member -- it was a short mission that was seperate from the main story and didn't effect the overall experience of the game; a big difference compared to The Stone Prisoner DLC that included Shale who was part of your team for the rest of the entire game. Don't you see the difference between offering a side-mission, that you finish and then move on, and offering a squad member? These games are build around the player's crew -- they are such a big part of the experience. And this is a Prothean! A member of an immensly interesting and mysterious race. That's why I have a problem with not everyone getting this guy by default.

And what exactly *are* we getting with our standard version? We got The Stone Prisoner with DA:O and The Cerberus Network with ME2... BioWare set that precedent, too. So, what are we getting with ME3? The multiplayer component. Right.


So you expect to be showered with free gifts and extras for spending $60 on a video game?  Not only that, but you get to choose which extras you deem worthy?  I'm not a supporter of Day 1 DLC but it is pretty much standard practice in the industry now and it surely isn't going away.

#6950
AkiKishi

AkiKishi
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Proof Bioware are missleading you ? 

 http://social.biowar...3/index/9439849

Modifié par BobSmith101, 24 février 2012 - 02:09 .