13369 réponses à ce sujet

[breadedpudding]

BaronIveagh wrote...

breadedpudding wrote...

No one has any proof that Prothy is plot essential until they play the game/DLC. Yes, he's a Prothean and I understand the importance of the race to some of us, the players, but how many characters in the game are going to believe he's a Prothean and not just a Collector or some other disguised or modified race? In game, no one really, truly knows WHAT Protheans even looked like 50,000 years ago. For that, how will they care? If they did believe, would they honestly believe he'd have some insight into how to defeat the Reapers, when the Protheans to begin with were more or less wiped out by them? Plus, you know... the galaxy is kind of going to hell in a hand basket, so I would think some folks would have more important things to worry about than some random alien popping up and claiming to be part of an extinct race.

What does that have ot do with what I wrote?  All it said was that they had the same preproduction phase and that teh protehan would have been excised in the production phase.  (since he does have audio in the game)

Okay, I'll give you that. I think I got my wires a bit crossed. But it's my understanding with animation of any kind that VO has to be done before characters and game/story content are built. So yes, they could have done the VO that early on in the game, to have it over and done with, completed the rest of the game, and as things were being checked over/certified, gone forward with completing the DLC. In my honest opinion, making sure the game is finished is of a higher priority than making sure a piece of DLC is completed. Also, wouldn't "slicing" out a piece of game, no matter what kind of value it might have kind of screw with the game settings/flow of the story/mechanics? Just curious and trying to ask honest questions.

[ArkkAngel007]

BaronIveagh wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...
Spoiler'd Commiserating Group would like a word with you 

I can understand why people want Javik to be important.  I just don't understand how they can't understand that their opinion doesn't supercede the writing in the game.

What's funny is it's clear no one bothered to look at the correct chart and just spouted garbage. 

I did look.  I was speaking in line with the person talking to you, not directing it at you.  I don't always edit my quote pyramids...if they are small enough I never do.  However, I see how you edited the rest of the comments out of the convo to imply that I was responding directly to you when I wasn't.  Not saying you did, but that's how it looks.

And I don't see how someone's opinion on how the game is written is less important than how the game is actually written is garbage.

I responded directly to your post in a different post though.  Feel free to respond to me there, without the insults.

Modifié par ArkkAngel007, 25 février 2012 - 04:52 .

[mars black]

24 hours and another 1500+ posts about nothing.

[ZX12r Ninja]

BaronIveagh wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

He was excised in the pre-production phase.  Again, he never made it past concept.  It was a different Prothean than Javik.

Javik was created in the production/post-production phase to be solely DLC.  His VO session was done with the rest of the VO work, and certain markers had to be programmed into cinematics to designate his appearance, just like with other DLC characters in the past.

Eh, stop and think about what you just wrote.  All that audio and programming would still have taken place during the main games production phase to work.  Becasue it would ahve failed in the testing phase if they didn't have working code for the DLC to test it with.  Meaning they would have had to share a pre-production phase.

No, that's what a game engine is for. So you don't have to go back and change pieces of code for every little change in cinematics, audio or scenery.

[jpzgoku]

DJBare wrote...

jpzgoku wrote...
What do people gain from defending a price hike on these games? Why do people defend the idea that witholding content for extra $. I am being as nice as possible about this, not here to offend. I would like to understand these peoples thoughts. I do not wish for this to become a flame war. I am trying, most likey in vain, for this to be productive.

Future games development, it shocks me sometimes when I see how much a loaf of bread has increased in price.

It's really quite simple, don't like the DLC, boycott the DLC, see, saved $10 already.

Im boycotting the game also.

[breadedpudding]

BaronIveagh wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...
Spoiler'd Commiserating Group would like a word with you 

I can understand why people want Javik to be important.  I just don't understand how they can't understand that their opinion doesn't supercede the writing in the game.

What's funny is it's clear no one bothered to look at the correct chart and just spouted garbage. 

Actually, I did look at the chart you posted. Are you saying because someone might not agree with what it says, they are wrong? That's just what it seems like you're saying.

[ZX12r Ninja]

breadedpudding wrote...

BaronIveagh wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...
Spoiler'd Commiserating Group would like a word with you 

I can understand why people want Javik to be important.  I just don't understand how they can't understand that their opinion doesn't supercede the writing in the game.

What's funny is it's clear no one bothered to look at the correct chart and just spouted garbage. 

Actually, I did look at the chart you posted. Are you saying because someone might not agree with what it says, they are wrong? That's just what it seems like you're saying.

Actually, you are guilty of doing just that yourself. You don't agree with Bioware's chart so it is wrong. That's just what it seems you are saying.

[BaronIveagh]

breadedpudding wrote...

Okay, I'll give you that. I think I got my wires a bit crossed. But it's my understanding with animation of any kind that VO has to be done before characters and game/story content are built. So yes, they could have done the VO that early on in the game, to have it over and done with, completed the rest of the game, and as things were being checked over/certified, gone forward with completing the DLC. In my honest opinion, making sure the game is finished is of a higher priority than making sure a piece of DLC is completed. Also, wouldn't "slicing" out a piece of game, no matter what kind of value it might have kind of screw with the game settings/flow of the story/mechanics? Just curious and trying to ask honest questions.

Well, what happens is that concept get done in preproduction, but re-writes take place early in production (at least where I've worked) because the script is finished, then VO, dialogue trees, level design, and then character animation, since the engine does not need a major overhaul.  However all of them get tweaked over and over.  Problems in level design can cause the scrpit and VO to need revised, etc.  And then there's always executive meddling, which this game reeks of atm.

Modifié par BaronIveagh, 25 février 2012 - 04:58 .

[breadedpudding]

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

breadedpudding wrote...

BaronIveagh wrote...

Mclouvins wrote...

Once again img.gawkerassets.com/img/17eig06xukt8apng/original.png

You know, people keep brandishing that around like it has meaning, but the funny part is, it's wrong. 

http://s16.postimage...rrected_map.jpg

That's what it would look like inthis case, because the Prothean was excised during production, not preproduction.

No one has any proof that Prothy is plot essential until they play the game/DLC. Yes, he's a Prothean and I understand the importance of the race to some of us, the players, but how many characters in the game are going to believe he's a Prothean and not just a Collector or some other disguised or modified race? In game, no one really, truly knows WHAT Protheans even looked like 50,000 years ago. For that, how will they care? If they did believe, would they honestly believe he'd have some insight into how to defeat the Reapers, when the Protheans to begin with were more or less wiped out by them? Plus, you know... the galaxy is kind of going to hell in a hand basket, so I would think some folks would have more important things to worry about than some random alien popping up and claiming to be part of an extinct race. 

Spoiler'd Commiserating Group would like a word with you 

I can understand why people want Javik to be important.  I just don't understand how they can't understand that their opinion doesn't supercede the writing in the game.

Whoops? 

I can understand why people would want him to be important as well. We're the players, we've learned about the Protheans since the franchise started. We want to know more about them, especially an actually living one. That doesn't mean he's crucial, or that the writers ever intended him to be - so yes, I can agree with your last sentence as well.

[Niemack Saarinen]

jpzgoku wrote...

Im boycotting the game also.

Great! ya got some coin in your pocket, go get some icecream with candy sprinkles

[GuyIncognito21]

The process is really irrelevant. It's quite obvious that they could have included the material in the game at launch, because, you know, it's going to be available at launch.

Core content + available at launch = should be in the game for everyone, for the base price of the game.

[ArkkAngel007]

BaronIveagh wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

He was excised in the pre-production phase.  Again, he never made it past concept.  It was a different Prothean than Javik.

Javik was created in the production/post-production phase to be solely DLC.  His VO session was done with the rest of the VO work, and certain markers had to be programmed into cinematics to designate his appearance, just like with other DLC characters in the past.

Eh, stop and think about what you just wrote.  All that audio and programming would still have taken place during the main games production phase to work.  Becasue it would ahve failed in the testing phase if they didn't have working code for the DLC to test it with.  Meaning they would have had to share a pre-production phase.

The testing you're talking about is done during actual production.  Pre-production is testing new mechanics, tweaking the engine, applying new programs, conceptual art, pitch-demos for the publishers, script drafts, etc.

So no, the DLC was not worked on during the pre-production phase outside of conceptual areas.  However, certain elements had to be tied into the actual production, such as VO work.  The character gets the same pathways and animations as the rest of the squad NPCs regarding the rest of the full game, which is transcribed to his model when the DLC is downloaded.  The level, model, etc was worked on separately from the rest of the game.

[mogonk]

BaronIveagh wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

He was excised in the pre-production phase.  Again, he never made it past concept.  It was a different Prothean than Javik.

Javik was created in the production/post-production phase to be solely DLC.  His VO session was done with the rest of the VO work, and certain markers had to be programmed into cinematics to designate his appearance, just like with other DLC characters in the past.

Eh, stop and think about what you just wrote.  All that audio and programming would still have taken place during the main games production phase to work.  Becasue it would ahve failed in the testing phase if they didn't have working code for the DLC to test it with.  Meaning they would have had to share a pre-production phase.

QFT

[breadedpudding]

ZX12r Ninja wrote...

breadedpudding wrote...

BaronIveagh wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...
Spoiler'd Commiserating Group would like a word with you 

I can understand why people want Javik to be important.  I just don't understand how they can't understand that their opinion doesn't supercede the writing in the game.

What's funny is it's clear no one bothered to look at the correct chart and just spouted garbage. 

Actually, I did look at the chart you posted. Are you saying because someone might not agree with what it says, they are wrong? That's just what it seems like you're saying.

Actually, you are guilty of doing just that yourself. You don't agree with Bioware's chart so it is wrong. That's just what it seems you are saying.

I never said anything about Bioware's chart. When the person I commented to said "the correct chart" I assumed they were speaking of the chart that they specifically posted. I can understand how you might think I was saying otherwise, so I'm not worried about that. When it comes to Bioware's chart, and for me personally, it's paints a clearer picture of how the games are made, especially if you know a little bit about how game production works.

[ArkkAngel007]

GuyIncognito21 wrote...

The process is really irrelevant. It's quite obvious that they could have included the material in the game at launch, because, you know, it's going to be available at launch.

Core content + available at launch = should be in the game for everyone, for the base price of the game.

I'm not arguing against that.  I've stated that it should have been free content at launch if that's when they planned to offer it.

But if people are spreading false information about the development of the content and using that as the basis of their argument, that I will argue against.

[didymos1120]

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

 The level, model, etc was worked on separately from the rest of the game.

Yep. Which is why Kasumi was completely unusable for months and months after the game released.  The best you could do was get her to appear during the endgame convos, and it was just a placeholder.

[ArkkAngel007]

mogonk wrote...

BaronIveagh wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

He was excised in the pre-production phase.  Again, he never made it past concept.  It was a different Prothean than Javik.

Javik was created in the production/post-production phase to be solely DLC.  His VO session was done with the rest of the VO work, and certain markers had to be programmed into cinematics to designate his appearance, just like with other DLC characters in the past.

Eh, stop and think about what you just wrote.  All that audio and programming would still have taken place during the main games production phase to work.  Becasue it would ahve failed in the testing phase if they didn't have working code for the DLC to test it with.  Meaning they would have had to share a pre-production phase.

QFT

Not QFT.  Read above your post Mogonk.

[BaronIveagh]

ZX12r Ninja wrote...

Actually, you are guilty of doing just that yourself. You don't agree with Bioware's chart so it is wrong. That's just what it seems you are saying.

Bioware doesn't agree with Bioware's chart.  Stope and compare the leaked and released info thier chart.  (assuming that is thier chart, which I doubt)  It doesn't match up.

[jpzgoku]

Niemack Saarinen wrote...

jpzgoku wrote...

Im boycotting the game also.

Great! ya got some coin in your pocket, go get some icecream with candy sprinkles

I like cake better

[Moonshadow_Dark]

Why stop at Mass Effect? You all know this is EA's doing. Just boycott EA entirely. That means skipping out on the new Sims expansion, Madden, SSX, Battlefield, Need For Speed, Dead Space, Mirror's Edge etc.

Oh wait, that would mean you wouldn't be playing a lot of new games. Some of which you people love too much to let go. It's a lot easier to take a stand when it's the easiest path. Stop playing one game, rather than stop playing all of them.

But no, throw away four years of great story, engaging characters, pulse pounding action and tear jerking drama over ten dollars. I'm sure EA will feel the pain when Mass Effect loses that ten dollars while they rake over tens of billions for their other titles that you already preordered from Gamestop.

If you're going to take a stand, actually stand up and not raise one hand in the air from your couch.

[MACharlie1]

didymos1120 wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

 The level, model, etc was worked on separately from the rest of the game.

Yep. Which is why Kasumi was completely unusable for months and months after the game released.  The best you could do was get her to appear during the endgame convos, and it was just a placeholder.

I'll be honest; I'm having a hard time believing this...we know for a fact that at one point both the Prothean and Eden Prime were slated to be in the game as prominent and important locations based on the early draft from the leak. 

[jpzgoku]

Moonshadow_Dark wrote...

Why stop at Mass Effect? You all know this is EA's doing. Just boycott EA entirely. That means skipping out on the new Sims expansion, Madden, SSX, Battlefield, Need For Speed, Dead Space, Mirror's Edge etc.

Oh wait, that would mean you wouldn't be playing a lot of new games. Some of which you people love too much to let go. It's a lot easier to take a stand when it's the easiest path. Stop playing one game, rather than stop playing all of them.

But no, throw away four years of great story, engaging characters, pulse pounding action and tear jerking drama over ten dollars. I'm sure EA will feel the pain when Mass Effect loses that ten dollars while they rake over tens of billions for their other titles that you already preordered from Gamestop.

If you're going to take a stand, actually stand up and not raise one hand in the air from your couch.

Thats what i have been doing since DA2

[Mclouvins]

ZX12r Ninja wrote...

BaronIveagh wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

He was excised in the pre-production phase.  Again, he never made it past concept.  It was a different Prothean than Javik.

Javik was created in the production/post-production phase to be solely DLC.  His VO session was done with the rest of the VO work, and certain markers had to be programmed into cinematics to designate his appearance, just like with other DLC characters in the past.

Eh, stop and think about what you just wrote.  All that audio and programming would still have taken place during the main games production phase to work.  Becasue it would ahve failed in the testing phase if they didn't have working code for the DLC to test it with.  Meaning they would have had to share a pre-production phase.

No, that's what a game engine is for. So you don't have to go back and change pieces of code for every little change in cinematics, audio or scenery.

The timing element is more or less irrelevant, it's really all about the funding. EA has to treat their financial capital as a fungible commodity and as such everything is going to have to be approved at a high level. With games basically having a price ceiling $60 they can't really increase the price to offset losses that would be accumulated by increasing a project's operating budget. Sometimes they have to and projects run over budget such as TOR, but that is not a situation that companies like to be in. Creative thoughts are basically free beyond the cost of creative labor but the implementation of them costs a lot more, so yes many things are often cut out of the pre-production stage. That does not mean however that they were ever meant to be a core component. As far as the VO work is concerned that may be handled by a small part of the writing team during the production phase so that they can minimize expenses during the recording period if they have to move people around or rent studio space (I don't know). The point being that all along the dlc is operating on an separate operating budget and needs to earn revenue itself. People think of day one DLC like Zaeed as free but that's not really accurate. The money used for the creation of that content is still expected to earn money relative to its expenses, the only difference is that they give it to some people so that they can charge others for it.

[mogonk]

Moonshadow_Dark wrote...

Why stop at Mass Effect? You all know this is EA's doing. Just boycott EA entirely. That means skipping out on the new Sims expansion, Madden, SSX, Battlefield, Need For Speed, Dead Space, Mirror's Edge etc.

Oh wait, that would mean you wouldn't be playing a lot of new games. Some of which you people love too much to let go. It's a lot easier to take a stand when it's the easiest path. Stop playing one game, rather than stop playing all of them.

But no, throw away four years of great story, engaging characters, pulse pounding action and tear jerking drama over ten dollars. I'm sure EA will feel the pain when Mass Effect loses that ten dollars while they rake over tens of billions for their other titles that you already preordered from Gamestop.

If you're going to take a stand, actually stand up and not raise one hand in the air from your couch.

I was already planning to "boycott" those games on the grounds that they're terrible, so....

CHALLENGE ACCEPTED.

[ZX12r Ninja]

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

BaronIveagh wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

He was excised in the pre-production phase.  Again, he never made it past concept.  It was a different Prothean than Javik.

Javik was created in the production/post-production phase to be solely DLC.  His VO session was done with the rest of the VO work, and certain markers had to be programmed into cinematics to designate his appearance, just like with other DLC characters in the past.

Eh, stop and think about what you just wrote.  All that audio and programming would still have taken place during the main games production phase to work.  Becasue it would ahve failed in the testing phase if they didn't have working code for the DLC to test it with.  Meaning they would have had to share a pre-production phase.

The testing you're talking about is done during actual production.  Pre-production is testing new mechanics, tweaking the engine, applying new programs, conceptual art, pitch-demos for the publishers, script drafts, etc.

So no, the DLC was not worked on during the pre-production phase outside of conceptual areas.  However, certain elements had to be tied into the actual production, such as VO work.  The character gets the same pathways and animations as the rest of the squad NPCs regarding the rest of the full game, which is transcribed to his model when the DLC is downloaded.  The level, model, etc was worked on separately from the rest of the game.

Does it really matter when it was made by who? It was planned and budgetted seperatly, enough said. It's still the same people working on it and they're going to share tasks no matter what. On some low level I'm sure you could find engineers working on the DLC and main game at the same time. This doesn't make them one and the same project and it also doesn't mean they're to be sold together.

At BMW engineers work on several projects at the same time to produce components for the same car. This doesn't mean you're entitled to a multimedia interface upgrade just because the same engineer also worked on the radio which came in your car.

Modifié par ZX12r Ninja, 25 février 2012 - 05:06 .