13369 réponses à ce sujet

[AkiKishi]

Yuoaman wrote...

Guys stop comparing BIoware to CDPR, while I enjoy their games as well we're discussing Bioware's DLC here.

It's showing that other companies do free DLC so it seems related.

[EVILFLUFFMONSTER]

The collectors edition clearly stated when they announced it months ago, that it would include a bonus character and mission. That implies that of course this would not be featured in the full normal edition of the game. The majority only decided to take offence once they found that the character in question and the mission are something they really wanted. There is a bandwagon, and many of you are jumping on it.

Let me say this; I disagree heartily with the way the gaming industry has started to use DLC. Instead of releasing content to primarily extend and continue the life of their games, more and more instances are occurring where companies deliberately develop content alongside their games, or even withhold content from the main game with the intention of releasing it later for extra money. Whilst I greatly dislike the direction this is beginning to take, the companies in question are doing absolutely nothing wrong - morals and business ethics are not the same thing. I do believe that we as the customer should be shown perhaps more courtesy and respect.

I can see how some see day 1 DLC as a slap in the face, because they would assume that the content in question was cut from the game with the sole intent of farming more money off customers - in this case the developer issuing a statement along the lines of "the game is perfectly complete without the DLC, the DLC is an optional extra" will do absolutely nothing to pacify them. In Mass Effect 3's case, the DLC was completed after the game was ready and certified to release - the games release date put back to a more lucrative time to release. Although, saying that - the DLC was ready enough to advertise it for release with the collectors edition on day 1, so that kind of negates that argument..

I would say that it is similar to the release of the DAII signature edition, if you didnt pre-order before a certain date and pay the full release price you had to buy the Black Emporium and Exiled prince DLC's, and there were a bunch of items exclusive for that edition that never became available. In this case you either pre-order the collectors edition or have to pay separately.

I personally think that while it may be a bit dubious moral-wise they haven't actually done anything wrong. If they had waited and released it 3 months later and we didn't know it was already developed, we would all be over the moon about how great the new DLC was, instead of whinging. The ironic thing being that we are actually better off in this circumstance because we don't have to wait 3 months!

I think demanding it for free is a bit too much, and quite ridiculous - as it is part of the collectors edition bonuses and one of the main incentives to buying it. If all the collectors edition items became available to everyone, a lot of people would be very, very annoyed. In fact I don't think it was originally going to be released straight away for the original, but they anticipated the general annoyance purchasers of the original normal version would experience and released it early..to a mass reaction of annoyance lol.

If this was an average developer, bringing out generic, average games then I wouldn't spend the extra money. In this case - for me at least it is the last chapter of what has been an amazing trilogy so far. I have loved every single game I have played from them, even if DAII wasn't what I wanted it to be(I wanted DA:O -II, not a political struggle with an unsatisfying ending). If the game is good, then for me it will have been worth every penny. In my experience - not that this is an excuse, but the more money a developer/publisher can make from its customers, the more support the games receive - especially if they can continue to make money from them via DLC. Bioware fixes its game problems usually, and listens to what content we want based on feedback. They actually talk to us on the forums, even if they are somewhat mysterious and defensive. I haven't seen developers this involved since Volition who quite regularly chatted on their forums when I used to visit them. Also, if we show them that they can make more money off us by buying the content they create - the more likely they are to continue making content. I am concerned that while the best intentions are behind boycotting the "from ashes" DLC and the game itself - you are actually reducing the games life expectancy, and future content. They often use the initial DLC releases as a model to predict sales of future releases, and if certain ones sell less than others it can shape the face of what we will receive. If it doesn't sell enough - then yes you will have made your point, we just wont get the other DLC characters they have in the pipeline.

The different pre-order items for different shops annoy me more than this Day 1 DLC debacle. I want everything - why wont you let me Bioware!

[Yuoaman]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Yuoaman wrote...

Guys stop comparing BIoware to CDPR, while I enjoy their games as well we're discussing Bioware's DLC here.

It's showing that other companies do free DLC so it seems related.

Bioware has also given free DLC in the past, which relates to this discussion far more than another, much smaller, company.

[ssj2dagas]

I was like "Great! I can get the stuff I wanted out of the CE even though I'm not buying the CE."

The internet was like "OMG THE END OF TEH WORLD!!11 IM NEVER BUYING ANYTHING EVER AGAIN!!!!11"

[Renegade133]

K1LL STREAK wrote...

The collectors edition clearly stated when they announced it months ago, that it would include a bonus character and mission. That implies that of course this would not be featured in the full normal edition of the game. The majority only decided to take offence once they found that the character in question and the mission are something they really wanted. There is a bandwagon, and many of you are jumping on it.

Let me say this; I disagree heartily with the way the gaming industry has started to use DLC. Instead of releasing content to primarily extend and continue the life of their games, more and more instances are occurring where companies deliberately develop content alongside their games, or even withhold content from the main game with the intention of releasing it later for extra money. Whilst I greatly dislike the direction this is beginning to take, the companies in question are doing absolutely nothing wrong - morals and business ethics are not the same thing. I do believe that we as the customer should be shown perhaps more courtesy and respect.

I can see how some see day 1 DLC as a slap in the face, because they would assume that the content in question was cut from the game with the sole intent of farming more money off customers - in this case the developer issuing a statement along the lines of "the game is perfectly complete without the DLC, the DLC is an optional extra" will do absolutely nothing to pacify them. In Mass Effect 3's case, the DLC was completed after the game was ready and certified to release - the games release date put back to a more lucrative time to release. Although, saying that - the DLC was ready enough to advertise it for release with the collectors edition on day 1, so that kind of negates that argument..

I would say that it is similar to the release of the DAII signature edition, if you didnt pre-order before a certain date and pay the full release price you had to buy the Black Emporium and Exiled prince DLC's, and there were a bunch of items exclusive for that edition that never became available. In this case you either pre-order the collectors edition or have to pay separately.

I personally think that while it may be a bit dubious moral-wise they haven't actually done anything wrong. If they had waited and released it 3 months later and we didn't know it was already developed, we would all be over the moon about how great the new DLC was, instead of whinging. The ironic thing being that we are actually better off in this circumstance because we don't have to wait 3 months!

I think demanding it for free is a bit too much, and quite ridiculous - as it is part of the collectors edition bonuses and one of the main incentives to buying it. If all the collectors edition items became available to everyone, a lot of people would be very, very annoyed. In fact I don't think it was originally going to be released straight away for the original, but they anticipated the general annoyance purchasers of the original normal version would experience and released it early..to a mass reaction of annoyance lol.

If this was an average developer, bringing out generic, average games then I wouldn't spend the extra money. In this case - for me at least it is the last chapter of what has been an amazing trilogy so far. I have loved every single game I have played from them, even if DAII wasn't what I wanted it to be(I wanted DA:O -II, not a political struggle with an unsatisfying ending). If the game is good, then for me it will have been worth every penny. In my experience - not that this is an excuse, but the more money a developer/publisher can make from its customers, the more support the games receive - especially if they can continue to make money from them via DLC. Bioware fixes its game problems usually, and listens to what content we want based on feedback. They actually talk to us on the forums, even if they are somewhat mysterious and defensive. I haven't seen developers this involved since Volition who quite regularly chatted on their forums when I used to visit them. Also, if we show them that they can make more money off us by buying the content they create - the more likely they are to continue making content. I am concerned that while the best intentions are behind boycotting the "from ashes" DLC and the game itself - you are actually reducing the games life expectancy, and future content. They often use the initial DLC releases as a model to predict sales of future releases, and if certain ones sell less than others it can shape the face of what we will receive. If it doesn't sell enough - then yes you will have made your point, we just wont get the other DLC characters they have in the pipeline.

The different pre-order items for different shops annoy me more than this Day 1 DLC debacle. I want everything - why wont you let me Bioware!

This

[g99]

Blarty wrote...

Wugger wrote...

y'know, bioware is pretty shameful in regards to liking its fans.

Lets compare them to CD Prokekt for a moment.

Oh yay! Yet another Witcher 2 comparison - the game that is the sequel to a game that can't decide if it's a mumorpurger or not. And yes while you may well say this about the Witcher Team now..... What happens when the demand for their games eclipses their ability and budget to give you things for free? And it's not an IF, it's a WHEN

The thing with CDProjectRED is the company is doing there best in the department of AAA titles and still value the situation "You buy the game =you buy the support". What we see in ME3 situation is a very dangerous trend "You buy bere minimum and pay more for anything more". One more fact CDProjectRED also making money from the fact they are developing the Witcher series. So it must be economically relevant to keep this kind of attitude for you're gamers.
Let's see. ME2 costed like 60$ right... that is 6$ for squad member (I know this is not exactly a good comparison), Now From Ashes is 10$ for a squad member. I fear too much for this.

[Yuoaman]

K1LL STREAK wrote...

-snip-

If you look at the pre-release information for the Collector's Edition the items contained in the "From Ashes" DLC are some of the few things not marked "exclusive" - it would not have been unreasonable to assume at that time that the character and mission would be available for all players.

This, however, was not the case - which is why this situation has become such a big deal.

[AkiKishi]

ssj2dagas wrote...

I was like "Great! I can get the stuff I wanted out of the CE even though I'm not buying the CE."

The internet was like "OMG THE END OF TEH WORLD!!11 IM NEVER BUYING ANYTHING EVER AGAIN!!!!11"

They were going to sell it from the start. Thats why it was listed as bonus and additional rather than exclusive.

But your reaction is the one they were going for.

[Evilelf007]

K1LL STREAK wrote...

The collectors edition clearly stated when they announced it months ago, that it would include a bonus character and mission. That implies that of course this would not be featured in the full normal edition of the game. The majority only decided to take offence once they found that the character in question and the mission are something they really wanted. There is a bandwagon, and many of you are jumping on it.

Let me say this; I disagree heartily with the way the gaming industry has started to use DLC. Instead of releasing content to primarily extend and continue the life of their games, more and more instances are occurring where companies deliberately develop content alongside their games, or even withhold content from the main game with the intention of releasing it later for extra money. Whilst I greatly dislike the direction this is beginning to take, the companies in question are doing absolutely nothing wrong - morals and business ethics are not the same thing. I do believe that we as the customer should be shown perhaps more courtesy and respect.

I can see how some see day 1 DLC as a slap in the face, because they would assume that the content in question was cut from the game with the sole intent of farming more money off customers - in this case the developer issuing a statement along the lines of "the game is perfectly complete without the DLC, the DLC is an optional extra" will do absolutely nothing to pacify them. In Mass Effect 3's case, the DLC was completed after the game was ready and certified to release - the games release date put back to a more lucrative time to release. Although, saying that - the DLC was ready enough to advertise it for release with the collectors edition on day 1, so that kind of negates that argument..

I would say that it is similar to the release of the DAII signature edition, if you didnt pre-order before a certain date and pay the full release price you had to buy the Black Emporium and Exiled prince DLC's, and there were a bunch of items exclusive for that edition that never became available. In this case you either pre-order the collectors edition or have to pay separately.

I personally think that while it may be a bit dubious moral-wise they haven't actually done anything wrong. If they had waited and released it 3 months later and we didn't know it was already developed, we would all be over the moon about how great the new DLC was, instead of whinging. The ironic thing being that we are actually better off in this circumstance because we don't have to wait 3 months!

I think demanding it for free is a bit too much, and quite ridiculous - as it is part of the collectors edition bonuses and one of the main incentives to buying it. If all the collectors edition items became available to everyone, a lot of people would be very, very annoyed. In fact I don't think it was originally going to be released straight away for the original, but they anticipated the general annoyance purchasers of the original normal version would experience and released it early..to a mass reaction of annoyance lol.

If this was an average developer, bringing out generic, average games then I wouldn't spend the extra money. In this case - for me at least it is the last chapter of what has been an amazing trilogy so far. I have loved every single game I have played from them, even if DAII wasn't what I wanted it to be(I wanted DA:O -II, not a political struggle with an unsatisfying ending). If the game is good, then for me it will have been worth every penny. In my experience - not that this is an excuse, but the more money a developer/publisher can make from its customers, the more support the games receive - especially if they can continue to make money from them via DLC. Bioware fixes its game problems usually, and listens to what content we want based on feedback. They actually talk to us on the forums, even if they are somewhat mysterious and defensive. I haven't seen developers this involved since Volition who quite regularly chatted on their forums when I used to visit them. Also, if we show them that they can make more money off us by buying the content they create - the more likely they are to continue making content. I am concerned that while the best intentions are behind boycotting the "from ashes" DLC and the game itself - you are actually reducing the games life expectancy, and future content. They often use the initial DLC releases as a model to predict sales of future releases, and if certain ones sell less than others it can shape the face of what we will receive. If it doesn't sell enough - then yes you will have made your point, we just wont get the other DLC characters they have in the pipeline.

The different pre-order items for different shops annoy me more than this Day 1 DLC debacle. I want everything - why wont you let me Bioware!

Well said...

[MissOuJ]

Yuoaman wrote...

K1LL STREAK wrote...

-snip-

If you look at the pre-release information for the Collector's Edition the items contained in the "From Ashes" DLC are some of the few things not marked "exclusive" - it would not have been unreasonable to assume at that time that the character and mission would be available for all players.

This, however, was not the case - which is why this situation has become such a big deal.

It might not have been advertised as exclusive, but it was advertised as being part of the CE bundle. If it had been part of the core game, mentioning the extra character and mission wouldn't have been necessary at all.

Modifié par MissOuJ, 25 février 2012 - 11:59 .

[Yuoaman]

MissOuJ wrote...

Yuoaman wrote...

K1LL STREAK wrote...

-snip-

If you look at the pre-release information for the Collector's Edition the items contained in the "From Ashes" DLC are some of the few things not marked "exclusive" - it would not have been unreasonable to assume at that time that the character and mission would be available for all players.

This, however, was not the case - which is why this situation has become such a big deal.

It might not have been advertised as exclusive, but it was advertised as being part of the CE bundle. If it had been part of the core game, mentioning the extra character and mission wouldn't have been neccessary at all.

I didn't look at much of the SE pre-release information because I assumed it would be advertised like Zaeed or the Cerberus Network - though that's my own fault for not being as thorough as I should have been.

[AkiKishi]

g99 wrote...
The thing with CDProjectRED is the company is doing there best in the department of AAA titles and still value the situation "You buy the game =you buy the support". What we see in ME3 situation is a very dangerous trend "You buy bere minimum and pay more for anything more". One more fact CDProjectRED also making money from the fact they are developing the Witcher series. So it must be economically relevant to keep this kind of attitude for you're gamers.
Let's see. ME2 costed like 60$ right... that is 6$ for squad member (I know this is not exactly a good comparison), Now From Ashes is 10$ for a squad member. I fear too much for this.

EA only seems to do it with Bioware.

Kingdoms of Amular released a couple of weeks ago.

class Equipment DLC - The sort of stuff that makes the game easy. Certainly does nothing to add to the game.

In the box
House of Valour - New area/arena/quests and a special house via online pass.
Bunch of ME3 stuff (no cost).

Now thats the way to do it. The sort of people who bought the CE for items will lap up class packs. They have no affect on anyone else game and the Prothean goes into the online pass.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 25 février 2012 - 12:03 .

[Renegade133]

It was advertised at the start cant complain now

[Blarty]

Bioware - don't give us anything at all.... Cancel the extra squadmates and mission, thus nobody gets it, the 'completionists' can feel like they've made their point and everyone, and just point out BW made the initial decision about sharing it with everyone, based on what they thought the fans reaction would be, but after going through 360 pages of vitriol well obviously the fans don't like it at all, and BW made a mistake, so.... sorry there is no Prothean.

[g99]

Blarty wrote...

Bioware - don't give us anything at all.... Cancel the extra squadmates and mission, thus nobody gets it, the 'completionists' can feel like they've made their point and everyone, and just point out BW made the initial decision about sharing it with everyone, based on what they thought the fans reaction would be, but after going through 360 pages of vitriol well obviously the fans don't like it at all, and BW made a mistake, so.... sorry there is no Prothean.

That situation would be at least correct with the lore. All protheans dead.

[Olej z Maku]

K1LL STREAK wrote...

...

I think demanding it for free is a bit too much, and quite ridiculous - as it is part of the collectors edition bonuses and one of the main incentives to buying it. If all the collectors edition items became available to everyone, a lot of people would be very, very annoyed. In fact I don't think it was originally going to be released straight away for the original, but they anticipated the general annoyance purchasers of the original normal version would experience and released it early..to a mass reaction of annoyance lol.

...

It is OK to demand it for "free". It is not my fault they put extra content into CE where it does not belong and therefore reduce content of standard edition. That is their problem.

[Blarty]

g99 wrote...

Blarty wrote...

Bioware - don't give us anything at all.... Cancel the extra squadmates and mission, thus nobody gets it, the 'completionists' can feel like they've made their point and everyone, and just point out BW made the initial decision about sharing it with everyone, based on what they thought the fans reaction would be, but after going through 360 pages of vitriol well obviously the fans don't like it at all, and BW made a mistake, so.... sorry there is no Prothean.

That situation would be at least correct with the lore. All protheans dead.

And no one getting access to anything extra that can be construed as 'additional' and 'required to make complete'....pethaps ever again

[Evilelf007]

Blarty wrote...

Bioware - don't give us anything at all.... Cancel the extra squadmates and mission, thus nobody gets it, the 'completionists' can feel like they've made their point and everyone, and just point out BW made the initial decision about sharing it with everyone, based on what they thought the fans reaction would be, but after going through 360 pages of vitriol well obviously the fans don't like it at all, and BW made a mistake, so.... sorry there is no Prothean.

The CE buyers have already paid for it, so it won't be cancelled.

They CAN cancel it for being available at all for the SE owners though...

[LilyasAvalon]

Blarty wrote...

Bioware - don't give us anything at all.... Cancel the extra squadmates and mission, thus nobody gets it, the 'completionists' can feel like they've made their point and everyone, and just point out BW made the initial decision about sharing it with everyone, based on what they thought the fans reaction would be, but after going through 360 pages of vitriol well obviously the fans don't like it at all, and BW made a mistake, so.... sorry there is no Prothean.

I approve of this, I'm sick of this bull****.

[AgentWhale]

H1natachan wrote...

Synthmilk wrote...

Well BioWare said it all really in this line:

" The Prothean is optional content that is certainly designed to appeal to long-time fans, which
is why he is part of the CE offering (the version many fans would be likely to purchase)."

From Ashes was designed and targeted at long term fans.  Claming that this content being included in the CE game because "fans" are likely going to get that version is, frankly, incredibly arrogant and utterly insulting to all Mass Effect fans who do not have the money, or desire, for the extras inherent to a Collectors Edition.

Let me repeat that last part "the EXTRAS inherent to a Collectors Edition."

Content developed with the express intent at marketing it to "longtime fans" is not an EXTRA.  Claiming that content intended for the game that was started after the game was "content complete" (which is an oxy-moron because obviously it's not content complete if additional content is intended to be included on release day) with the knowledge it would not be able to be included on the physical disk but would be finished in time for the release of the game, does not somehow make that content EXTRA.

Trying to claim that "a separate team" developed this content is an attempt to imply that "it wasn't in the budget."  To which I call BU**SH*T.  Sure, BioWare doesn't have unlimited funds, but claiming that somehow the FREE DLC for ME2 wasn't an issue financially but THIS piece of DLC somehow IS, just further reinforces the concept that this content was intended from the start to be a big, valuable piece of the game.

From the standpoint of development, I do not see an argument for how this content is somehow an "extra", while at the same time developed for "long-time fans."  How is excluding this content from the base game doing them a favor?

From the standpoint of finances, I do not see an argument for how this content should cost more to have, when there are plenty of examples where similar content did not, and by all accounts Mass Effect 3 will be a blockbuster
title with massive profits.  Meaning whatever relatively minor budget (compared to the development of the main game) was required to produce this content would not be a financial burden.  If it needs to cost ten dollars to make up for it's development, that is simply incompetent management of resources on top of it all.

From the standpoint of simply doing right by the fans:  This content includes a character that for all intents and purposes has been built up in the previous games, especially the first game, to have significance second only to the Reapers themselves to Shepard personally and the story as a whole.  Not including it in the cost of the game, meaning Mass Effect 3: The Version The Vast Majority Of People Will Own, is an insult to everyone who has become emotionally invested in the story.

Claiming that it's included as part of a limited edition version of the game as some sort of gift to "long-term fans" is doublespeak of a magnitude typically only found in Orwellian dystopias.  Something developed for loyal fans is tucked away in a more expensive product, that not everyone can have.  Saying those loyal fans who weren't lucky enough to get a Collectors Edition can still PAY MORE for this content developed especially for them, is simply disgusting.

I will not be buying this game, or any other game made by BioWare, or EA, ever again.  Yes, I know many people are more than willing to pay more to get this and other similar content and I may be in a minority of customers, but that doesn't mean I am wrong, and it doesn't mean this type of behaviour on the part of a business is a good thing.

We have a winner ^^ .... So much this, people really need to wake up and smell the coffee :innocent:

I completely agree.

[DaJe]

Evilelf007 wrote...

Kevin Lozandier wrote...]

No. That is an opinion that is flawed if gaming development is truly fully understood to you.

As I asked you a while ago with no reply: Collector Edition of Comics have extra panels. Collector Edition of Movies have uncut material. Why can't Collector Edition of Games not have additional content to play with?  

In the end, this is Bioware's intellectual property, and they can package it as they please.  The consumer will either accept it or not.  In this case, I think the consumers will overwhelmingly accept it... it's just a vocal minority that is crying foul.

Bioware wins again!

I heard that before. Dragon Age 2. Biggest fail in Bioware history. Bioware knows that, EA knows that or they wouldn't beg you to buy it by reducing the price so drasticly in such a short time and giving you a better game (ME2) with it for free.
"Vocal minority", yeah right.

Also in the end it's EAs property and it has become very obvious. Bioware, atleast the part that makes important decisions, appear to have stopped caring about the integrity of the franchise. What matters is pleasing EAs shareholders.

[Blarty]

Evilelf007 wrote...

Blarty wrote...

Bioware - don't give us anything at all.... Cancel the extra squadmates and mission, thus nobody gets it, the 'completionists' can feel like they've made their point and everyone, and just point out BW made the initial decision about sharing it with everyone, based on what they thought the fans reaction would be, but after going through 360 pages of vitriol well obviously the fans don't like it at all, and BW made a mistake, so.... sorry there is no Prothean.

The CE buyers have already paid for it, so it won't be cancelled.

They CAN cancel it for being available at all for the SE owners though...

I'm getting 2 copies of the CE, and at this moment in time I wouldn't give a **** if they rescinded the extra squadmate because I am sick of the whiny-ass, oh how Bioware screwed us over bull.

[MissOuJ]

Yuoaman wrote...
I didn't look at much of the SE pre-release information because I assumed it would be advertised like Zaeed or the Cerberus Network - though that's my own fault for not being as thorough as I should have been.

I actually think that's on BioWare: I only just found out that the multiplayer comes with an online pass for new buyers, so that's the "Zaeed"/new purchase incentive for this round. I think they haven't been as straightforward about that as they could've been.

[Olej z Maku]

Renegade133 wrote...

It was advertised at the start cant complain now

I can. I complaining right now.

[g99]

I'll wait 6 to 10 months (or more) to but the game as I always do, and I will see how the price will drop. What I'm really angered for is the fact the DLC price will NOT drop. All DLC for ME2 are still 800/400 etc. BioWare Points and point's are always at the same price. I bot Lair of the Shadow Broker for ME2 and I will see what DLC will Bioware make for ME3 later to see it I even begin to consider them.

Modifié par g99, 25 février 2012 - 12:18 .