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Mass Effect 3: From Ashes


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#9826
AlanC9

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Tar-Minastir wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

And again, that's not why he was cut.  He was only added back in because they could probably make money off of him.  If they didn't think so, we wouldn't have gotten him at all.

He was cut originally because the whole plot revolving around him was cut back in the conceptual phase.

Again, most people's main arguments against the DLC are probably correct.  It's what it is being backed up with is incorrect.


Then you admit bioware/ea is not doing you any favors and does not require/deserve your blind support in all things as others have attested?


Admit? Strange way to put it. 
ArkkAngel007's never been in favor of the DLC.

#9827
bennyjammin79

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10 more days until I can crack open my CE. Cannot. Wait.

#9828
rainasa

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Rdubs wrote...

rainasa wrote...

Rdubs wrote...



And there is fairly decent evidence which indicates that is the case.



"random statments that I just pulled out of my ass" is not fairly decent evidence.


Which clearly shows how closely you have been following discussion related to such.  Reading the information which supports your position while skipping over information which counters your position is part of human nature, I think it's called selection bias or information bias, but it doesn't help you gain understanding.



did....did you of all people really just say that? really?
I....I dont know how to respond. there are simply no words.

#9829
Daft Quaver

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i found this a petty huge spoiler in a 'no spoiler' section...

#9830
ZX12r Ninja

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Rdubs wrote...

Arkkangel I agree with most of what you say here in that it has decent logic supported by decent foundation, both of which are key to a good position.  But everything revolves around your definition of "essential", in that you believe he's not essential because he doesn't add to the plot and you can get the lore information elsewhere.  I do not think he is "essential" anymore than I think Legion was "essential" in that it would have been easy to work the character out of the story, cover the bases other ways, then offer him as extra content.  But it's the experience of such a character, and having him in your squad and the resulting dialogue and going on the eden prime mission that makes it not ESSENTIAL, but VALUABLE story-related CONTENT. 

About providing the flawed details, can you tell me which?  Facts are the basis for any discussion and it's important that they be correct.  AFAIK the only things I've spoken about which could be deemed "wrong" are the content the Prothy squaddie brings with him, which 1) no one can know until they play the game and 2) even then, different content has different importance with different people and even a smidgeon of Prothean-related content can be a big deal for most fans.


Why is it you assume he is essential? He's not the one on the bench here, he's not the one complaining. You assume he is essentail and thus you are the one who is required to provide proof he is essential. Nobody can say for sure untill the release whether he is essential or not. Yes you would like him to be essential because you have some expectation but those are personal expectations and most like not in line what you're going to get.

#9831
Tar-Minastir

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AlanC9 wrote...

Tar-Minastir wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

And again, that's not why he was cut.  He was only added back in because they could probably make money off of him.  If they didn't think so, we wouldn't have gotten him at all.

He was cut originally because the whole plot revolving around him was cut back in the conceptual phase.

Again, most people's main arguments against the DLC are probably correct.  It's what it is being backed up with is incorrect.


Then you admit bioware/ea is not doing you any favors and does not require/deserve your blind support in all things as others have attested?


Admit? Strange way to put it. 
ArkkAngel007's never been in favor of the DLC.


That's why i said others have attested...

#9832
Rdubs

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OdanUrr wrote...

Rdubs wrote...

RDSFirebane wrote...

Rdubs wrote...

LOL.  That is how it turned out, yes.  So how could it be???  Chris said the Prothean squad mate was removed yet it turns out there actually is one?  HOW COULD THAT BE????  Two options, I am sure you will choose whichever one makes you feel less foolish for having put so much investment in defending all this.

1) It was originally scheduled, then they decided to cut it, then "no wait let's slam to get it back in!!!!!  Whew glad we made it!!!"
2) Chris was doing his job as PR guy and leak damage control guy which occassionally involves either lying or obfuscating the truth.

Your constant and stretched defense of this is making you look foolish.


He never said the Pro. was being removed show where he directly said it. and no more foolish then you look argueing it.
 What you said above proves it your going off what you think and not facts your assumeing.


"Sorry, that was a mistake from old text. It is being removed. Hate to be a killjoy."

The key word there is THAT.
QED.


Like I said 100+ pages ago, it comes down to interpretation. The key word isn't "that," but "it." What is "it"? The text? The Prothean squadmate and adventure? We didn't know then as was expected. If Bioware had stated earlier that the bonus squadmate and mission was this "Prothean squadmate/adventure" then we would have had this discussion months ago. Because they didn't, we're having it two weeks before release.


Slam dunk Odan.  And what happened after that post is just as important - most of the community (if not the far majority of the community) interpreted this to mean the Prothy had been refuted yet neither Chris nor anyone did anything to clarify what the denial was referencing.  And why not?  Because it was in their INTERESTS to have the community not know who the squad member would be.  Trust me, no PR person is going to issue a clarification of one of their statements if that statement is having an effect which benefits the company.

#9833
RDSFirebane

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Daft Quaver wrote...

i found this a petty huge spoiler in a 'no spoiler' section...


Did you read page 1 or just jump in? if you just jumped in then I am sorry but thats the risk you take.

#9834
AlanC9

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Tar-Minastir wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Tar-Minastir wrote...
Then you admit bioware/ea is not doing you any favors and does not require/deserve your blind support in all things as others have attested?


Admit? Strange way to put it. 
ArkkAngel007's never been in favor of the DLC.


That's why i said others have attested...


"Admit" isn't the word you use when someone's always agreed with the proposition. Like I said, it's a strange way to phrase it.

#9835
Rdubs

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rainasa wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...


You skipped my other response to you, where I said the overall idea of your argument is fine, but your evidence and execution is lacking.

And wow, again, you just disregard everything that comes your way just because you don't care about the reality, just your opinion.  You wouldn't have even received the snarky bits if you weren't acting like a total **** in the first place.


just report and block Rdubs at this point, she did the same things to me yesterday. at this point she is trolling whether she is doing it on purpose or not has yet to be seen.


Nice how you just sail on thinking you proved a point after I showed you the faults in it.  If blocking me helps you think your argument wasn't flawed than by all means do so.  Also, that's an awful lot of "she's" thrown in especially seeing as how you've never mentioned a gender before and have zero evidence that I am actually a female.  That itself is a troll, should ArkkAngel ask to ban you too?

#9836
ArkkAngel007

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Rdubs wrote...

Arkkangel I agree with most of what you say here in that it has decent logic supported by decent foundation, both of which are key to a good position.  But everything revolves around your definition of "essential", in that you believe he's not essential because he doesn't add to the plot and you can get the lore information elsewhere.  I do not think he is "essential" anymore than I think Legion was "essential" in that it would have been easy to work the character out of the story, cover the bases other ways, then offer him as extra content.  But it's the experience of such a character, and having him in your squad and the resulting dialogue and going on the eden prime mission that makes it not ESSENTIAL, but VALUABLE story-related CONTENT. 

About providing the flawed details, can you tell me which?  Facts are the basis for any discussion and it's important that they be correct.  AFAIK the only things I've spoken about which could be deemed "wrong" are the content the Prothy squaddie brings with him, which 1) no one can know until they play the game and 2) even then, different content has different importance with different people and even a smidgeon of Prothean-related content can be a big deal for most fans.


And I agree with how fans feel that he is valuable.  Again, I'm not denying the personal importance he is to fans, which is again why I have issues with the DLC.

The flawed details were as such:

1)Chris Priestly stating that the Prothy was being removed from the game/CE or whatever.  Your first mistake is believing Mr. Priestly, who is a notorious fan troller.  Jk, his fan interactions leave much to be desired, and he's been wrong in the past as well.  But the fact was that they were just removing that bit of the description, because they had nothing prepared to show the public yet.

2) That the Prothean was developed at that point and removed.  The reality is that there was no work for the Prothean or the rest of "From Ashes" done at that point outside of a handful of lines in the script that were squad banter that interacted with the rest o the game if he were to be downloaded.  The original concept of a Prothean in ME3 was dropped very early in pre production.  Those assets of that Prothean and Eden Prime were reused later during production to develop the "From Ashes" DLC and the character of Javrik.

3) While not a factual basis of your argument, your posts and responses seemed intended to ilicit hostile responses from people, which was why I had to break out my snarky Turian self and smack your squishy self down (those are jokes btw, just ME humor), and why you have been called out on that.  Whether that was your intention or not, I honestly don't care.  Just keep in mind of how you execute your argument so that people will listen to you instead of targeting you.

Anyways, thanks for the cordial response.  I can PM you where to get the source information that I and rainasa speak of.  It's very spoiler heavy, so if that's an issue, I can find a way to impart information.  I just can't post it publically on here or Priestly will be frying my ***.

#9837
Tar-Minastir

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ZX12r Ninja wrote...

Why is it you assume he is essential? He's not the one on the bench here, he's not the one complaining. You assume he is essentail and thus you are the one who is required to provide proof he is essential. Nobody can say for sure untill the release whether he is essential or not. Yes you would like him to be essential because you have some expectation but those are personal expectations and most like not in line what you're going to get.


That's the entire problem.  Being in the dark is bad and a sales tactic that should not be applauded.  As it stands there are two senarios:

A.  He is essential and people will feel obligated to buy it for the complete expirence.

B.  He is not essential, but people cannot know that until they play it meaining that again they will be forced to buy it.  

By making the dlc a prothean Bioware/ea have basically guaranteed ppl will fork over the 10$.  However, there is one caveat and that is that the dlc will offend enough ppl to make them buy used, rent, not buy on day 1 to wait for info, wait for a sale, not buy  at all, or worst of all pirate.  

I think this dlc can in no way be a good thing for bioware/ea with the way iits been handled.

#9838
AlanC9

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Rdubs wrote...
 And why not?  Because it was in their INTERESTS to have the community not know who the squad member would be.


How was keeping it secret in their interest, anyway? If this had been revealed earlier, presumably they would have sold more CEs. It was early enough that they could have made more.

#9839
Rdubs

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obie191970 wrote...

Rdubs wrote...
Legion wasn't needed to handle either the Heretics or the Geth/Quarian war.  Those easily could have been handled other ways which did not detract from the "plot", but having Legion do it enriched the game play experience.  Saying the Prothean isn't an important part of the content because he's not an important part of the plot is a very weak, although very common, position to take.


Continuously using Legion in your argument is weak at best.  He was part of the main storyline and therefore critical to the plot of the game.  


Again it's not about the story, it's about experiencing the character.  There is a big difference.

But you bring up a great point, I don't know how many times I've made that distinction yet people still choose to not factor it into their thinking.  At this point it's hard not to think I'm wasting my time trying to show people why others are pissed.

#9840
ArkkAngel007

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AlanC9 wrote...

Tar-Minastir wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

And again, that's not why he was cut.  He was only added back in because they could probably make money off of him.  If they didn't think so, we wouldn't have gotten him at all.

He was cut originally because the whole plot revolving around him was cut back in the conceptual phase.

Again, most people's main arguments against the DLC are probably correct.  It's what it is being backed up with is incorrect.


Then you admit bioware/ea is not doing you any favors and does not require/deserve your blind support in all things as others have attested?


Admit? Strange way to put it. 
ArkkAngel007's never been in favor of the DLC.


I guess I can't be objective.  Have to be one side or the other.

Well I don't think so.

B)

Edit: But to be clear, Alan is correct.  I am not in favor of this DLC in the respect in how it was/continues to be handled.

Modifié par ArkkAngel007, 25 février 2012 - 11:51 .


#9841
Kithrus

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Rip504 wrote...

LoL
Legion? Compared to the Prothean?

Lol Really?

The Geth/Quarian conflict plays a role in the Reaper war. Legion was needed in ME2,to help make this happen in ME3.

Prothean is for the fans who are interested in it. It does not effect the Reaper war,it enhances ME3. (ME2-3 Story)

Take away Legion,Garrus,Tali etc,is a failed argument. Really.


And if the protheans never helped you in mass effect one then the reapers would be knawing on the citidel and earth already.

Bioware and EA are counting on your intrest of said continginacy plans already hinted at to spark your intrest in the new characters back story.

And don't tell me that Prothean plans don't help you this time.

#9842
pavi132

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You're "entitled" if you complain. You are a "sheep" or "biodrone" if you don't. Sums up the thread. End it here.

#9843
rainasa

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Rdubs wrote...



Nice how you just sail on thinking you proved a point after I showed you the faults in it.  If blocking me helps you think your argument wasn't flawed than by all means do so.  Also, that's an awful lot of "she's" thrown in especially seeing as how you've never mentioned a gender before and have zero evidence that I am actually a female.  That itself is a troll, should ArkkAngel ask to ban you too?


A straw man is a component of an argument and is an fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.
To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a
proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet
unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without
ever having actually refuted the original position

gender has NOTHING to do with this.

#9844
AlanC9

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Tar-Minastir wrote...
By making the dlc a prothean Bioware/ea have basically guaranteed ppl will fork over the 10$.  


I don't think this content is nearly as compelling as you think it is.

#9845
RDSFirebane

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Tar-Minastir wrote...

I think this dlc can in no way be a good thing for bioware/ea with the way iits been handled.


Well I guess reaching out to a new crowd of gamers evens out everything you just said.

you dont plan on buying the game or DLC plan on getting it used instead?  well whats that solve when for everyone of you they have X number of them takeing your place as profit. ya just sayin...... plenty of new people are going to be like hey DLC for this game I've never played looks cool I'll take it to.

#9846
Rdubs

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rainasa wrote...

Rdubs wrote...

It is getting annoying reading your comments, all you do is claim how you have proven anyone wrong and then repeat it later without ever having done so, in fact it has been shown to you where the faults in your evidence lie yet you continue to repeat the evidence without ever having addressed the disproving.  Just calling an argument a straw man does not make it so.  But it's sure easier to think you've won an argument by calling someone else's a straw man.  Good for you, that that works for you.

 

THIS IS THE EXACT KIND OF ATTITUDE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT. instead of trying to help your own argument you simply insult anyone who disagres with your own opinion and ignore the actual infomation itself. when we provide facts on why you are wrong its "lawlbiodrone, they simply lied" when we provided the leaked scripts it was just "lawl they cut him from the game"

going "my opinion is right and everyone who disagrees with me is wrong and also is a tool" is a form of trolling.
im amazed you have not been banned after doing it for 2 days.


I noticed that you only quoted me, you did not quote the quote I was referencing.  Why?  Because to do so would show exactly what I was talking about.  If you want an open and honest debate with a chance of moving a discussion forward, please hold off on the selective editing.

And be careful what you claim as someone's MO if you're doing it as well.  Which after I showed you the error in your Chris Priestly post logic, you switched to.  Maybe you're a troll and I'm missing it.

#9847
OdanUrr

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pavi132 wrote...

You're "entitled" if you complain. You are a "sheep" or "biodrone" if you don't. Sums up the thread. End it here.


There are 10 types of people on the BSN.:D

#9848
ZX12r Ninja

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Tar-Minastir wrote...

ZX12r Ninja wrote...

Why is it you assume he is essential? He's not the one on the bench here, he's not the one complaining. You assume he is essentail and thus you are the one who is required to provide proof he is essential. Nobody can say for sure untill the release whether he is essential or not. Yes you would like him to be essential because you have some expectation but those are personal expectations and most like not in line what you're going to get.


That's the entire problem.  Being in the dark is bad and a sales tactic that should not be applauded.  As it stands there are two senarios:

A.  He is essential and people will feel obligated to buy it for the complete expirence.

B.  He is not essential, but people cannot know that until they play it meaining that again they will be forced to buy it.  

By making the dlc a prothean Bioware/ea have basically guaranteed ppl will fork over the 10$.  However, there is one caveat and that is that the dlc will offend enough ppl to make them buy used, rent, not buy on day 1 to wait for info, wait for a sale, not buy  at all, or worst of all pirate.  

I think this dlc can in no way be a good thing for bioware/ea with the way iits been handled.


Bioware has stated over and over again that the character is optional to the story, they have outright, straightup said this. It is an extra for the fans who will enjoy it but it is not required. Those are their words. They are not creating any mystery around this, they are not forcing you to buy it by covering it in a shroud of mystery.

If you had read what I had written before, if scenario A then yes Bioware/EA is the devil and I swear to never buy another Bioware or EA title ever again. Bioware has clearly stated the the character is not essential to the story and that the Prothean is optional, very much optional as in Zaeed or Katsumi optional. We have no reason to doubt Bioware as of yet and come launch day we will all find out. If you don't want to take the risk then wait a week untill after launch and you'll know by userreviews, else just take leap of faith and see what happens. But don't complain about something you don't have as of yet.

Modifié par ZX12r Ninja, 25 février 2012 - 11:57 .


#9849
ArkkAngel007

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pavi132 wrote...

You're "entitled" if you complain. You are a "sheep" or "biodrone" if you don't. Sums up the thread. End it here.


Enough of us have been discussing this without using those terms ever in this entire thread.

Obviously the generalizations won't be ending, as evident of your beautiful example of input.

 Give your actual input on the matter, and then you can talk down to the rest of those you are referring to.  But doing the exact same thing just puts you in the same camp as them.

#9850
OdanUrr

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Tar-Minastir wrote...

I think this dlc can in no way be a good thing for bioware/ea with the way iits been handled.


It looks like it's turning into a PR nightmare. I believe there was an error computing PI.^_^