13369 réponses à ce sujet

[Rdubs]

Progressive_Stupidity1 wrote...

rainasa wrote...

Rdubs wrote...



And there is fairly decent evidence which indicates that is the case.

"random statments that I just pulled out of my ass" is not fairly decent evidence.

Since when was anyone 'pulling random statements out of their ass'? The prothean squadmate was advertised with the collectors edition nine months ago, as I'm sure many people have already said. There are also apparently sound files of dialogue in the demo of the prothean squadmate and his role in the leaked script to support this argument.

Careful Progressive_Stupidity1, if you challenge Rainasa she'll claim you're trolling and ask people to report / block you.

[Lufven1]

AlanC9 wrote...

Lufven1 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Lufven1 wrote...
The thing is that most people don't view this day-one DLC as an addon to the game but as a cut-off of the main game. And who could blame them? For all we know this character could have been completed months ago (yes, I know what Bioware said about that). Like me, many feel that content that is being available at launch should be included in the game and not be treated as an addon.

Of course he could have been completed months ago. Bio can allocate resources any way they like.

I just don't understand how you can say that you'd be happier if Bio finished From Ashes and then deliberately held it back rather than release it on day 1. You're worse off; you're getting the content later.

Is your fantasy that buying a game entitles you to all the content the company has ready on day 1 really that important to you? So important that you'd rather that the company lie to you about what's ready and what isn't?

I'm pretty sure Bioware is not lying(a lot). They are just withelding information. I'm not saying I'm entitled to anything I just believe that any content planned for the release is going to be there. Prothy was planned to be ready on launch and he was but not avaiable to everybody (and don't say he's avaiable for 10$). Content that is planned to be released later, expansions and DLC's, is fine to charge extra for. But then again, we will never know if the next DLC that is released for ME3 is already done and is just sitting there waiting for someone to push the "release" button.  

Why not say he's available for $10? It's true.

And if the next DLC really is ready now, we'd all be better off if they released it on day 1 too. Though if they'd rather hold it back to keep people like you from feeling sad, I'd rather know that's what they're doing. Of course, admitting that publicly would make people like you sad too, so Chris will have to PM me or something.

You may be surprised to hear this but my view is in the majority. If the next DLC would be ready for launch I'd still say SE customers should get it for free. If they would release like 4 character DLC's on launch then at least I would get suspicous but you would buy it anyway. I would ask myself "how did they make all this DLC in the time between the game being done and launch?". That is the same question I'm asking myself right now about this DLC...

[rainasa]

Rdubs wrote...

I noticed that you only quoted me, you did not quote the quote I was referencing.  Why?  Because to do so would show exactly what I was talking about.  If you want an open and honest debate with a chance of moving a discussion forward, please hold off on the selective editing.

And be careful what you claim as someone's MO if you're doing it as well.  Which after I showed you the error in your Chris Priestly post logic, you switched to.  Maybe you're a troll and I'm missing it.

actually i do that with all my post to be respectful to everyone else veiwing this topic, there are enough quote pyramids already (like yours, you have no need to include 8 quotes in a single post).

Modifié par rainasa, 25 février 2012 - 11:59 .

[StElmo]

RiouHotaru wrote...

StElmo wrote...

BaronIveagh wrote...

CommanderCoffee wrote...
...
Uh-oh! The game needs to be re-certified because you just added content. Well, while it's there, might as well create some new DLC. Keep the developers busy.

Uh-oh! DLC was completed before the game's release! Better send it back to be re-certified. Well, we have plenty of time now, don't want the developers to not use their skills...

and here's where it falls apart, as if it's issued as free DLC the game would nto have to be recertified, so... no.

I'm going to put this simply to all of you. This is the message companies send to consomers through DLC.

1 - Day 1 FREE DLC  = "Here's a little something extra for being such good fans and buying the game new" = ACCEPTABLE

2 - Day 50 PAID DLC = "Here's something extra for those of you still hanging out for some more Mass Effect 3" = ACCEPTABLE

3 - DAY 1 PAID DLC ; "The game will not satiate you for long, so we have decided to release day one DLC so yhe hype manages to get us some sales before people realize this is a mediocre experience. " = UNACCEPTABLE

...You're joking on that third example, right?  Because that's just ridiculous.

Thats the message it sends.

[obie191970]

Rdubs wrote...

obie191970 wrote...

Rdubs wrote...
Legion wasn't needed to handle either the Heretics or the Geth/Quarian war.  Those easily could have been handled other ways which did not detract from the "plot", but having Legion do it enriched the game play experience.  Saying the Prothean isn't an important part of the content because he's not an important part of the plot is a very weak, although very common, position to take.

Continuously using Legion in your argument is weak at best.  He was part of the main storyline and therefore critical to the plot of the game.  

Again it's not about the story, it's about experiencing the character.  There is a big difference.

But you bring up a great point, I don't know how many times I've made that distinction yet people still choose to not factor it into their thinking.  At this point it's hard not to think I'm wasting my time trying to show people why others are pissed.

If you stopped personally attacking people, perhaps more would take you seriously and you wouldn't be wasting your time.  Most people here, myself included, think that having the Prothean as a DLC squaddie was a bad move by Bioware and he should be included in the game for everyone.  I know when I ordered the CE I was expecting Zaeed 2.0.  I really wish Bioware had owned up to the leak months ago and then this discussion could have taken place at that point and maybe something could have been done to rectify the situation.  But now they in a position where they're damned if they do, damned if they don't.

[ArkkAngel007]

Rainasa, Rdubs, drop it. What was a clarifying discussion is now just a ****ing match. Mods will ban both of you otherwise. We were already given our warnings.

Modifié par ArkkAngel007, 25 février 2012 - 11:59 .

[pavi132]

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

pavi132 wrote...

You're "entitled" if you complain. You are a "sheep" or "biodrone" if you don't. Sums up the thread. End it here.

Enough of us have been discussing this without using those terms ever in this entire thread.

Obviously the generalizations won't be ending, as evident of your beautiful example of input.

 Give your actual input on the matter, and then you can talk down to the rest of those you are referring to.  But doing the exact same thing just puts you in the same camp as them.

I have stated my input a while ago and while there are a few people actually discussing the matter, most are just insulting each other. I am in no way talking down to the people who are actually discussing this in a coherent and respectful manner. The fact remains, though, that most people aren't and as such, this thread is not productive in the least but has become, again mostly and not entirely, opposite sides slinging insults at each other.

[Rdubs]

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

Progressive_Stupidity1 wrote...

rainasa wrote...

Rdubs wrote...



And there is fairly decent evidence which indicates that is the case.

"random statments that I just pulled out of my ass" is not fairly decent evidence.

Since when was anyone 'pulling random statements out of their ass'? The prothean squadmate was advertised with the collectors edition nine months ago, as I'm sure many people have already said. There are also apparently sound files of dialogue in the demo of the prothean squadmate and his role in the leaked script to support this argument.

That's not what Rdubs' is talking about though.  If this were that it was intended from DLC from the beginning, then we'd be in agreement.  It's the details they are providing that are wrong, while every solid evidence is dismissed and responded with some form of insult.

Ark, you're killing me.  This is EXACTLY what I was talking about.  I didn't find out about it until a couple days ago when this all happened, but researching since then it is clear that 9 months ago it was leaked that the Prothy was planned to be a squaddie.  That means this whole Day 1 DLC thing was a premeditated or pre-planned cash grab, with plenty of time to get it in the main game.  "pre-meditated" and "pre-planned" were both words I have used in the past on this forum to describe that.  All my talk about the Chris Priestly quote, I was actually just defending some other guy who claimed Chris denied that the Prothy would be a squad mate. 

[OdanUrr]

rainasa wrote...

Rdubs wrote...

I noticed that you only quoted me, you did not quote the quote I was referencing.  Why?  Because to do so would show exactly what I was talking about.  If you want an open and honest debate with a chance of moving a discussion forward, please hold off on the selective editing.

And be careful what you claim as someone's MO if you're doing it as well.  Which after I showed you the error in your Chris Priestly post logic, you switched to.  Maybe you're a troll and I'm missing it.

actually i do that with all my post to be respectful to everyone else veiwing this topic, there are enough quote pyramids already (like yours, you have no need to include 8 quotes in a single post).

I agree. Let's cut down on the pyramid quotes. While it's true sometimes a quote can be taken out of context this way, it's a lot easier to read.

[Rdubs]

obie191970 wrote...

Rdubs wrote...
It is getting annoying reading your comments, all you do is claim how you have proven anyone wrong and then repeat it later without ever having done so, in fact it has been shown to you where the faults in your evidence lie yet you continue to repeat the evidence without ever having addressed the disproving.  Just calling an argument a straw man does not make it so.  But it's sure easier to think you've won an argument by calling someone else's a straw man.  Good for you, that that works for you.

In the past couple of pages you've called everyone Biodrones, insulted PS3 owners(360 and PC here) and pretty much personally attacked anyone who doesn't agree with your point of view.  Keep the avatar.  It fits.....

Actually
1) Never called everyone Biodrones, calling a few people based on their behavior that is much different than calling everyone that, and
2) I avoid personal attacks unless attacked first, show me one and I'll gladly show you the triggering of it.  Personal attacks do not help move the discussion along because all they do it cause the attacked party to retrench and become defensive.

[ZX12r Ninja]

Rdubs wrote...

Ark, you're killing me.  This is EXACTLY what I was talking about.  I didn't find out about it until a couple days ago when this all happened, but researching since then it is clear that 9 months ago it was leaked that the Prothy was planned to be a squaddie.  That means this whole Day 1 DLC thing was a premeditated or pre-planned cash grab, with plenty of time to get it in the main game.  "pre-meditated" and "pre-planned" were both words I have used in the past on this forum to describe that.  All my talk about the Chris Priestly quote, I was actually just defending some other guy who claimed Chris denied that the Prothy would be a squad mate. 

What do you think they just decided to make a DLC with the Prothean? Ofcourse it was planned way ahead of time. The whole timeline of the project is planned way before the main story is even written down. I'm even sure they know what DLC's they're goign to release in 6 months to a year and working on them rightnow. What you're saying only supports the fact that both items were developed seperatly as they have been planned and budgetted way ahead of time.

Modifié par ZX12r Ninja, 26 février 2012 - 12:04 .

[Tar-Minastir]

Rdubs wrote...
Ark, you're killing me.  This is EXACTLY what I was talking about.  I didn't find out about it until a couple days ago when this all happened, but researching since then it is clear that 9 months ago it was leaked that the Prothy was planned to be a squaddie.  That means this whole Day 1 DLC thing was a premeditated or pre-planned cash grab, with plenty of time to get it in the main game.  "pre-meditated" and "pre-planned" were both words I have used in the past on this forum to describe that.  All my talk about the Chris Priestly quote, I was actually just defending some other guy who claimed Chris denied that the Prothy would be a squad mate. 

Here, Here I have no idea how ppl can defend this aspect of the dlc.  If ppl were competent consumers who would hold bioware/ea accountable we wouldn't be dealing w/ this crappy dlc dilema.  It's like the question the forbes artcicle asks -- at what point will consumers say enough is enough?

[StElmo]

1:45 of this video is exactly my problem with this DLC (warning mature content): Jimquisiton: How Skyrim proves the game industry wrong. Google it.

It shows exactly my point, even though. MASS EFFECT 3 MIGHT be over 40 hours, but the problem is it sends a message having day one DLC is showing an unfinished game.

DLC should be because people WANT more content, which is the case with late DLC. Early DLC is a cashgrab, simple as that.

Modifié par StElmo, 26 février 2012 - 12:05 .

[Dilos01]

We're almost close to 400! 

Modifié par Dilos01, 26 février 2012 - 12:06 .

[Rdubs]

ZX12r Ninja wrote...

Rdubs wrote...
But it's the experience of such a character, and having him in your squad and the resulting dialogue and going on the eden prime mission that makes it not ESSENTIAL, but VALUABLE story-related CONTENT. 

Why is it you assume he is essential? He's not the one on the bench here, he's not the one complaining. You assume he is essentail and thus you are the one who is required to provide proof he is essential. Nobody can say for sure untill the release whether he is essential or not. Yes you would like him to be essential because you have some expectation but those are personal expectations and most like not in line what you're going to get.

Never said he was essential.  this is an important distinction.

Rdubs wrote...

But it's the experience of such a character, and having him in your squad and the resulting dialogue and going on the eden prime mission that makes it not ESSENTIAL, but VALUABLE story-related CONTENT. 

[ArkkAngel007]

Rdubs wrote...


Ark, you're killing me.  This is EXACTLY what I was talking about.  I didn't find out about it until a couple days ago when this all happened, but researching since then it is clear that 9 months ago it was leaked that the Prothy was planned to be a squaddie.  That means this whole Day 1 DLC thing was a premeditated or pre-planned cash grab, with plenty of time to get it in the main game.  "pre-meditated" and "pre-planned" were both words I have used in the past on this forum to describe that.  All my talk about the Chris Priestly quote, I was actually just defending some other guy who claimed Chris denied that the Prothy would be a squad mate. 

I'm confused now, but fine, whatever.  If we are in agreement, then the arguing is done.  It doesn't matter what Chris said. 

We can't decide if it should've been in the main game or no.  Elements like multiplayer, the whole Galaxy at War system, generally more background activity taking place...that's a lot of code.  I know, multiplayer isn't relevent to the lore...whatever.  It was their design choice and we have to live with it.

However, we can all agree, for those against the DLC, that it should have been handled better.

[Tar-Minastir]

ZX12r Ninja wrote...

What do you think they just decided to make a DLC with the Prothean? Ofcourse it was planned way ahead of time. The whole timeline of the project is planned way before the main story is even written down. I'm even sure they know what DLC's they're goign to release in 6 months to a year and working on them rightnow. What you're saying only supports the fact that both items were developed seperatly as they have been planned and budgetted way ahead of time.

If this was planned and bioware/EA did not foresee the **** storm they would kick up, then this was a monumental failure on their end to undertstand their consumers. 

I like to believe that this is another test by EA to see how far they can push their consumers.  Like many other attempts before it they are testing the waters and b/c its ME3 they are pretty much guarnteed that anything they do will have very little impact on sales.  Then they have a precedent they can use to further milk their consumers.

Read the forbes article.  It outlines the progression and address how the system works.  It gives the hard truth that nothing will really change, but does properly outline why this dlc is bad.

[ArkkAngel007]

pavi132 wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

pavi132 wrote...

You're "entitled" if you complain. You are a "sheep" or "biodrone" if you don't. Sums up the thread. End it here.

Enough of us have been discussing this without using those terms ever in this entire thread.

Obviously the generalizations won't be ending, as evident of your beautiful example of input.

 Give your actual input on the matter, and then you can talk down to the rest of those you are referring to.  But doing the exact same thing just puts you in the same camp as them.

I have stated my input a while ago and while there are a few people actually discussing the matter, most are just insulting each other. I am in no way talking down to the people who are actually discussing this in a coherent and respectful manner. The fact remains, though, that most people aren't and as such, this thread is not productive in the least but has become, again mostly and not entirely, opposite sides slinging insults at each other.

Apologize for not seeing your previous post.  Things are cooling down though (hopefully) so things should be more or less normal.

Edit: And aside from Deception, all controversial topics were like this.  Remember the multiplayer announcement?

Modifié par ArkkAngel007, 26 février 2012 - 12:13 .

[obie191970]

Tar-Minastir wrote...

Rdubs wrote...
Ark, you're killing me.  This is EXACTLY what I was talking about.  I didn't find out about it until a couple days ago when this all happened, but researching since then it is clear that 9 months ago it was leaked that the Prothy was planned to be a squaddie.  That means this whole Day 1 DLC thing was a premeditated or pre-planned cash grab, with plenty of time to get it in the main game.  "pre-meditated" and "pre-planned" were both words I have used in the past on this forum to describe that.  All my talk about the Chris Priestly quote, I was actually just defending some other guy who claimed Chris denied that the Prothy would be a squad mate. 

Here, Here I have no idea how ppl can defend this aspect of the dlc.  If ppl were competent consumers who would hold bioware/ea accountable we wouldn't be dealing w/ this crappy dlc dilema.  It's like the question the forbes artcicle asks -- at what point will consumers say enough is enough?

Like I've said before I have no issue with there being day 1 DLC.  It's now common practice and it isn't going away - That's fine, business is business.  It's the subject matter that I have some issues with.  Regardless of how much information, lore, experience, etc., the Prothean character explains, it is something that everyone should be able to enjoy.  Even though their story pretty much ended after Sovereign and Vigil, it will still be cool to see.

[ArkkAngel007]

StElmo wrote...

1:45 of this video is exactly my problem with this DLC (warning mature content): Jimquisiton: How Skyrim proves the game industry wrong. Google it.

It shows exactly my point, even though. MASS EFFECT 3 MIGHT be over 40 hours, but the problem is it sends a message having day one DLC is showing an unfinished game.

DLC should be because people WANT more content, which is the case with late DLC. Early DLC is a cashgrab, simple as that.

Skyrim actually proved the industry right...by tying itself down to DRM.  But that's a whole other debate I don't want to get into.

But yeah, I agree that it is playing on the customer's gaming itch.

[Rdubs]

AlanC9 wrote...

Rdubs wrote...
 And why not?  Because it was in their INTERESTS to have the community not know who the squad member would be.

How was keeping it secret in their interest, anyway? If this had been revealed earlier, presumably they would have sold more CEs. It was early enough that they could have made more.

Absolutely true, unless the plan all along was to offer it to people who didn't buy the CE (which I think is the large majority of fans) as extra content.  They would have sold WAY more copies of the CE if they had said, hey everybody the extra character and mission is lore-important, if you like the ME universe story you will probably want it.

[RDSFirebane]

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

However, we can all agree, for those against the DLC, that it should have been handled better.

Yes that and the whole unified theory joke we had going is about the only two things we all agree with.

[ArkkAngel007]

Rdubs wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Rdubs wrote...
 And why not?  Because it was in their INTERESTS to have the community not know who the squad member would be.

How was keeping it secret in their interest, anyway? If this had been revealed earlier, presumably they would have sold more CEs. It was early enough that they could have made more.

Absolutely true, unless the plan all along was to offer it to people who didn't buy the CE (which I think is the large majority of fans) as extra content.  They would have sold WAY more copies of the CE if they had said, hey everybody the extra character and mission is lore-important, if you like the ME universe story you will probably want it.

It's because companies feel like they actually have to show us something to announce it.  They had nothing on the DLC except a couple of lines and concepts, so when they saw word got out, they backpeddeled thinking we'd be ****ed off if we didn't see anythng.

Instead the opposite happened.  We got excited about it, but when they finally release details, we were angry over how they were handling it.

[Lufven1]

This is a sad read but it's also very true:
http://www.forbes.co...n-damn-fault-2/

I can only repeat myself by saying that you should vote with your wallets but I know you won't...

Modifié par Lufven1, 26 février 2012 - 12:16 .

[Rdubs]

rainasa wrote...

Rdubs wrote...



Nice how you just sail on thinking you proved a point after I showed you the faults in it.  If blocking me helps you think your argument wasn't flawed than by all means do so.  Also, that's an awful lot of "she's" thrown in especially seeing as how you've never mentioned a gender before and have zero evidence that I am actually a female.  That itself is a troll, should ArkkAngel ask to ban you too?

A straw man is a component of an argument and is an fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.
To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a
proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet
unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without
ever having actually refuted the original position

gender has NOTHING to do with this.

I was trying to explain what one was for your benefit so you could avoid them.  Maybe this can do it better.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Discussion with you has really degenerated, say whatever you want you've made it clear all you like to do is repeat your talking points followed by "see I proved you wrong" without ever addressing any information which proves counter to your position.  You should learn from ArkkAngel, he proposes 1) logic, and backs it up with 2) facts which have some decent foundation.