13369 réponses à ce sujet

[DaJe]

ZX12r Ninja wrote...

Rdubs wrote...

Arkkangel I agree with most of what you say here in that it has decent logic supported by decent foundation, both of which are key to a good position.  But everything revolves around your definition of "essential", in that you believe he's not essential because he doesn't add to the plot and you can get the lore information elsewhere.  I do not think he is "essential" anymore than I think Legion was "essential" in that it would have been easy to work the character out of the story, cover the bases other ways, then offer him as extra content.  But it's the experience of such a character, and having him in your squad and the resulting dialogue and going on the eden prime mission that makes it not ESSENTIAL, but VALUABLE story-related CONTENT. 

About providing the flawed details, can you tell me which?  Facts are the basis for any discussion and it's important that they be correct.  AFAIK the only things I've spoken about which could be deemed "wrong" are the content the Prothy squaddie brings with him, which 1) no one can know until they play the game and 2) even then, different content has different importance with different people and even a smidgeon of Prothean-related content can be a big deal for most fans.

Why is it you assume he is essential? He's not the one on the bench here, he's not the one complaining. You assume he is essentail and thus you are the one who is required to provide proof he is essential. Nobody can say for sure untill the release whether he is essential or not. Yes you would like him to be essential because you have some expectation but those are personal expectations and most like not in line what you're going to get.

He clearly said "not ESSENTIAL, but VALUABLE story-related CONTENT". It's easy to miss with all the capital letters....

I totally agree. The people you have in your squad have a huge impact on how the game feels. Although the story might not change, how you experience it will.
When said characters offer views from exotic races, on missions and outside, their impact is even bigger.

Saying the Prothean is optional is like cutting Gimli from the Lord of the Rings, just because he was not essential to the main story. But would the fellowship really be the same without a dwarf?

Zaeed was just one of 12 characters, and there was no pre-story about him. Although he is much more optional story wise than the prothean, Zaeed was free Day 1 DLC. Despite the obvious DLC inclusion (no dialog trees) that was acceptable.

The Prothean is a unique species in an already much smaller squad rooster than in ME2. It makes a huge difference to have him throughout the game or not, no matter if it changes the ending or not.

Personally I find that character and what he represents more important than Vega or even the VS. But we shouldn't have this discussion in the first place because squad mates in Bioware games are just too damn important for the game experience to be optional.

[Rdubs]

rainasa wrote...

Rdubs wrote...

I noticed that you only quoted me, you did not quote the quote I was referencing.  Why?  Because to do so would show exactly what I was talking about.  If you want an open and honest debate with a chance of moving a discussion forward, please hold off on the selective editing.

And be careful what you claim as someone's MO if you're doing it as well.  Which after I showed you the error in your Chris Priestly post logic, you switched to.  Maybe you're a troll and I'm missing it.

actually i do that with all my post to be respectful to everyone else veiwing this topic, there are enough quote pyramids already (like yours, you have no need to include 8 quotes in a single post).

I wasn't asking you to quote 8 posts.  I was noticing that you decided to remove the post one prior which my quote was referencing.  That would be doing 2 quotes, not 8.

FYI - almost as if on cue - saying "I didn't quote you because I didn't want to have 8 layers of quotes", when only the prior quote is the one on topic, can be considered a straw-man argument, in this case more than a hyperbole.

[ArkkAngel007]

Rdubs wrote...

rainasa wrote...

Rdubs wrote...



Nice how you just sail on thinking you proved a point after I showed you the faults in it.  If blocking me helps you think your argument wasn't flawed than by all means do so.  Also, that's an awful lot of "she's" thrown in especially seeing as how you've never mentioned a gender before and have zero evidence that I am actually a female.  That itself is a troll, should ArkkAngel ask to ban you too?

A straw man is a component of an argument and is an fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.
To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a
proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet
unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without
ever having actually refuted the original position

gender has NOTHING to do with this.

I was trying to explain what one was for your benefit so you could avoid them.  Maybe this can do it better.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Discussion with you has really degenerated, say whatever you want you've made it clear all you like to do is repeat your talking points followed by "see I proved you wrong" without ever addressing any information which proves counter to your position.  You should learn from ArkkAngel, he proposes 1) logic, and backs it up with 2) facts which have some decent foundation.

Rdubs, drop it.  I've told rainasa to do so as well.  She's used the same facts that I have through this thread, so if you respect me, respect rainasa as well.  You two got caught up in your argument, and both of you made mistakes in your posts back forth to eachother.

[Rdubs]

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

Rainasa, Rdubs, drop it. What was a clarifying discussion is now just a ****ing match. Mods will ban both of you otherwise. We were already given our warnings.

ArkkAngel I respect what you have to say based on your prior posts, and will do as you request, although I was about to anyway.

[DJBare]

Lufven1 wrote...
I can only repeat myself by saying that you should vote with your wallets but I know you won't...

Correct, I will not vote with my wallet on this issue, it's a bad move by bioware but I'm not going to let their incompetence ruin my enjoyment of the last game in the series.

[BTCentral]

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

Instead the opposite happened.  We got excited about it, but when they finally release details, we were angry over how they were handling it.

While that is very true, many people seem to be forgetting that they may well not have been planning on releasing said details until after the game was officially released for all we know (unless it has been explicitly stated elsewhere that they were planning on telling us soon anyway?).

The whole reason this was "announced" in the first place was because Microsoft mucked up and enabled the DLC on Xbox Live when they should not have.

To some extent, I am playing devil's advocate here, yes. For the record, I do not support the way in which this DLC was handled, but it has been handled as it has been handled and there is nothing you, I, or anyone other than EA/BioWare can do about that.

I do not see why SE owners should get something for nothing (as in, the DLC for free, as many of them seem to feel entitled to) without the CE owners being compensated in some way. However, I see no reason why some other reasonable compromise can not be made. For example, as others have suggested, giving the next free major DLC to CE owners as a replacement.

Modifié par BTCentral, 26 février 2012 - 12:32 .

[Gnarlesee]

DaJe wrote...

ZX12r Ninja wrote...

Rdubs wrote...

Arkkangel I agree with most of what you say here in that it has decent logic supported by decent foundation, both of which are key to a good position.  But everything revolves around your definition of "essential", in that you believe he's not essential because he doesn't add to the plot and you can get the lore information elsewhere.  I do not think he is "essential" anymore than I think Legion was "essential" in that it would have been easy to work the character out of the story, cover the bases other ways, then offer him as extra content.  But it's the experience of such a character, and having him in your squad and the resulting dialogue and going on the eden prime mission that makes it not ESSENTIAL, but VALUABLE story-related CONTENT. 

About providing the flawed details, can you tell me which?  Facts are the basis for any discussion and it's important that they be correct.  AFAIK the only things I've spoken about which could be deemed "wrong" are the content the Prothy squaddie brings with him, which 1) no one can know until they play the game and 2) even then, different content has different importance with different people and even a smidgeon of Prothean-related content can be a big deal for most fans.

Why is it you assume he is essential? He's not the one on the bench here, he's not the one complaining. You assume he is essentail and thus you are the one who is required to provide proof he is essential. Nobody can say for sure untill the release whether he is essential or not. Yes you would like him to be essential because you have some expectation but those are personal expectations and most like not in line what you're going to get.

He clearly said "not ESSENTIAL, but VALUABLE story-related CONTENT". It's easy to miss with all the capital letters....

I totally agree. The people you have in your squad have a huge impact on how the game feels. Although the story might not change, how you experience it will.
When said characters offer views from exotic races, on missions and outside, their impact is even bigger.

Saying the Prothean is optional is like cutting Gimli from the Lord of the Rings, just because he was not essential to the main story. But would the fellowship really be the same without a dwarf?

Zaeed was just one of 12 characters, and there was no pre-story about him. Although he is much more optional story wise than the prothean, Zaeed was free Day 1 DLC. Despite the obvious DLC inclusion (no dialog trees) that was acceptable.

The Prothean is a unique species in an already much smaller squad rooster than in ME2. It makes a huge difference to have him throughout the game or not, no matter if it changes the ending or not.

Personally I find that character and what he represents more important than Vega or even the VS. But we shouldn't have this discussion in the first place because squad mates in Bioware games are just too damn important for the game experience to be optional.

This man is on to something.

Another good point that i agree with, is that making him "non-essential" to the story, by making him a paid DLC.
This means the potential of a living prothean who could have amazing possibilities for the story plot, is now totally wasted, and only used as a sidekick.

You could have something amazing lore potential packed with essential plot, just like Illos´s AI program Virgil in Mass Effect 1. That single conversation about the prothean and the reapers was one of the biggest things about mass effect 1.

That prothean could be the same, free for everyone, an interesting plot-twist. Now only reduced to a sidekick DLC.Too bad.

[Rdubs]

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

Rdubs wrote...


Ark, you're killing me.  This is EXACTLY what I was talking about.  I didn't find out about it until a couple days ago when this all happened, but researching since then it is clear that 9 months ago it was leaked that the Prothy was planned to be a squaddie.  That means this whole Day 1 DLC thing was a premeditated or pre-planned cash grab, with plenty of time to get it in the main game.  "pre-meditated" and "pre-planned" were both words I have used in the past on this forum to describe that.  All my talk about the Chris Priestly quote, I was actually just defending some other guy who claimed Chris denied that the Prothy would be a squad mate. 

I'm confused now, but fine, whatever.  If we are in agreement, then the arguing is done.  It doesn't matter what Chris said. 

We can't decide if it should've been in the main game or no.  Elements like multiplayer, the whole Galaxy at War system, generally more background activity taking place...that's a lot of code.  I know, multiplayer isn't relevent to the lore...whatever.  It was their design choice and we have to live with it.

However, we can all agree, for those against the DLC, that it should have been handled better.

+1

You know what I wish would happen, a while from now someone who worked at Bioware and had been part of the development does a tell-all about what happened here and we find out what REALLY happened behind the curtain. 

[GME_ThorianCreeper]

Every other post on this thread is "Im not buying this game!" or "I am definitely not buying this DLC"... BLAH BLAH BLAH etc.

Well QQ more please, I am not on either "side," but I am willing to bet more then half the people who are claiming to boycott this game WILL buy the game and WILL buy the DLC. Swallow your pride people, this is the gaming industry, it evolved as technology evolved, we aren't in the 90's anymore for god's sake. GET OVER IT!

If you want it get it, if you don't then don't, just stop claiming your not gonna buy it because frankly if you are a true fan of the game you'll want to experience it and you will buy it anyway.

Modifié par GME_ThorianCreeper, 26 février 2012 - 12:27 .

[nitefyre410]

I go off take a nap, play some UMVC 3, eat some dinner, come back and thread war 3 has broken out. People throwing out entitled and veiled insults and by the usually suspects none the less...

go figure.

[Rdubs]

obie191970 wrote...

Tar-Minastir wrote...

Rdubs wrote...
Ark, you're killing me.  This is EXACTLY what I was talking about.  I didn't find out about it until a couple days ago when this all happened, but researching since then it is clear that 9 months ago it was leaked that the Prothy was planned to be a squaddie.  That means this whole Day 1 DLC thing was a premeditated or pre-planned cash grab, with plenty of time to get it in the main game.  "pre-meditated" and "pre-planned" were both words I have used in the past on this forum to describe that.  All my talk about the Chris Priestly quote, I was actually just defending some other guy who claimed Chris denied that the Prothy would be a squad mate. 

Here, Here I have no idea how ppl can defend this aspect of the dlc.  If ppl were competent consumers who would hold bioware/ea accountable we wouldn't be dealing w/ this crappy dlc dilema.  It's like the question the forbes artcicle asks -- at what point will consumers say enough is enough?

Like I've said before I have no issue with there being day 1 DLC.  It's now common practice and it isn't going away - That's fine, business is business.  It's the subject matter that I have some issues with.  Regardless of how much information, lore, experience, etc., the Prothean character explains, it is something that everyone should be able to enjoy.  Even though their story pretty much ended after Sovereign and Vigil, it will still be cool to see.

+1 +1 +1 +1 +1

[AlanC9]

Lufven1 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote....
Why not say he's available for $10? It's true.

And if the next DLC really is ready now, we'd all be better off if they released it on day 1 too. Though if they'd rather hold it back to keep people like you from feeling sad, I'd rather know that's what they're doing. Of course, admitting that publicly would make people like you sad too, so Chris will have to PM me or something.

You may be surprised to hear this but my view is in the majority. If the next DLC would be ready for launch I'd still say SE customers should get it for free. If they would release like 4 character DLC's on launch then at least I would get suspicous but you would buy it anyway. I would ask myself "how did they make all this DLC in the time between the game being done and launch?". That is the same question I'm asking myself right now about this DLC...

Wait a minute. How'd we suddenly get to the DLCs being free? Since when were we talking about that? I thought we were just talking about the timing of releases.

And where on earth did you get the idea that I'm buying From Ashes or any other DLC? I'm better off if I have the option to buy them immediately, but I currently have no intention of exercising that option on day 1 or day 100.

Modifié par AlanC9, 26 février 2012 - 12:30 .

[nitefyre410]

GME_ThorianCreeper wrote...

Every other post on this thread is "Im not buying this game!" or "I am definitely not buying this DLC"... BLAH BLAH BLAH etc.

Well QQ more please, I am not on either "side," but I am willing to bet more then half the people who are claiming to boycott this game WILL buy the game and WILL buy the DLC. Swallow your pride people, this is the gaming industry, it evolved as technology evolved, we aren't in the 90's anymore for god's sake. GET OVER IT!

If you want it get it, if you don't then don't, just stop claiming your not gonna buy it because frankly if you are a true fan of the game you'll want to experience it and you will buy it anyway.

  

Oh  good  grief not this "True Fan"  nonsense again...

There is  no such thing a "True fan" just Fan  or not a fan.. 

Here is little  something.. .see I'm  big fan of Assassins Creed maybe  even more than Mass Effect... brought  AC :Revelation used and my fan was happy and my consumer  saved some money. 

So I will  buy  Bioware games used from now on .. don't have get them new fresh out the box. Will  this change anything.. nope. its not meant too

[slimgrin]

GME_ThorianCreeper wrote...



Well QQ more please, I am not on either "side," but I am willing to bet more then half the people who are claiming to boycott this game WILL buy the game and WILL buy the DLC.

How do you know that? You got a crystal ball?

Modifié par slimgrin, 26 février 2012 - 12:37 .

[GnusmasTHX]

slimgrin wrote...

GME_ThorianCreeper wrote...



Well QQ more please, I am not on either "side," but I am willing to bet more then half the people who are claiming to boycott this game WILL buy the game and WILL buy the DLC.

How do you know that? You got a crystal ball?

He's a telepath, obviously.

[Tar-Minastir]

slimgrin wrote...

GME_ThorianCreeper wrote...

Every other post on this thread is "Im not buying this game!" or "I am definitely not buying this DLC"... BLAH BLAH BLAH etc.

Well QQ more please, I am not on either "side," but I am willing to bet more then half the people who are claiming to boycott this game WILL buy the game and WILL buy the DLC.

How do you know that?

Didn't you know? Certain ppl in this thread can read minds.  I can't speak for anyone else, but it seems this move by bioware/ea will lead to a dramatic up swing in pirating, renting, buying used, etc.  I know I cancled my preorder and will be waiting to see how this dlc plays out before purchasing.  I call that being a responsible consumer.  

[BaronIveagh]

BTCentral wrote...
While that is very true, many people seem to be forgetting that they may well not have been planning on releasing said details until after the game was officially released for all we know (unless it has been explicitly stated elsewhere that they were planning on telling us soon anyway?).

The whole reason this was "announced" in the first place was because Microsoft mucked up and enabled the DLC on Xbox Live when they should not have.

To some extent, I am playing devil's advocate here, yes. For the record, I do not support the way in which this DLC was handled, but it has been handled as it has been handled and there is nothing you, I, or anyone other than EA/BioWare can do about that.

BT: when the original leak took plce 9 months ago, it was stated to be day one DLC for CE owners.  So, reguardless of if M$ mucked it up, this was likely going to be a PR bombshell.

[TheDragonOfWhi]

AlanC9 wrote...
Wait a minute. How'd we suddenly get to the DLCs being free? Since when were we talking about that? I thought we were just talking about the timing of releases.

That's the problem with in this these pages, we as a community haven't agreed on what the problem was/is. And when i asked, I got two different answers almost immediately. This is not going to be sloved anytime soon.
All I can hope for is that it is come the 6th then the Americans get the game, if nothing else they should be too busy play it to be much complaining, and then I can find out myself on the 9th when I get my copy.
Until then it’s all circumstantial

[GME_ThorianCreeper]

slimgrin wrote...

GME_ThorianCreeper wrote...

Every other post on this thread is "Im not buying this game!" or "I am definitely not buying this DLC"... BLAH BLAH BLAH etc.

Well QQ more please, I am not on either "side," but I am willing to bet more then half the people who are claiming to boycott this game WILL buy the game and WILL buy the DLC.

How do you know that?

I don't it is an opinion, like most of the things people say on this forum. I didn't realize that betting on something means that I am right, I think I'm gonna go bet on the Cubs to win the World Series now, haha.

[LOST SPARTANJLC]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

GME_ThorianCreeper wrote...



Well QQ more please, I am not on either "side," but I am willing to bet more then half the people who are claiming to boycott this game WILL buy the game and WILL buy the DLC.

How do you know that? You got a crystal ball?

He's a telepath, obviously.

Most will despite what they say , only a few people will follow through.

[THX-1137]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

GME_ThorianCreeper wrote...



Well QQ more please, I am not on either "side," but I am willing to bet more then half the people who are claiming to boycott this game WILL buy the game and WILL buy the DLC.

How do you know that? You got a crystal ball?

He's a telepath, obviously.

Probably has something called common sense or experience. Remember the Modern Warfare 2 boycott and how many of the signers could be seen playing it on day-1?

You know you'll buy it.

Modifié par THX-1137, 26 février 2012 - 12:43 .

[TheDragonOfWhi]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

GME_ThorianCreeper wrote...

Well QQ more please, I am not on either "side," but I am willing to bet more then half the people who are claiming to boycott this game WILL buy the game and WILL buy the DLC.

How do you know that? You got a crystal ball?

He's a telepath, obviously.

Or understands human nature.

[BTCentral]

BaronIveagh wrote...

BT: when the original leak took plce 9 months ago, it was stated to be day one DLC for CE owners.  So, reguardless of if M$ mucked it up, this was likely going to be a PR bombshell.

I do not disagree, however it's much easier to deal with a PR bombshell after a game has been released and in the hands of those that pre-ordered it, than it is a few days before it gets released when there is the danger of people cancelling said pre-orders.

[Lufven1]

AlanC9 wrote...

Lufven1 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote....
Why not say he's available for $10? It's true.

And if the next DLC really is ready now, we'd all be better off if they released it on day 1 too. Though if they'd rather hold it back to keep people like you from feeling sad, I'd rather know that's what they're doing. Of course, admitting that publicly would make people like you sad too, so Chris will have to PM me or something.

You may be surprised to hear this but my view is in the majority. If the next DLC would be ready for launch I'd still say SE customers should get it for free. If they would release like 4 character DLC's on launch then at least I would get suspicous but you would buy it anyway. I would ask myself "how did they make all this DLC in the time between the game being done and launch?". That is the same question I'm asking myself right now about this DLC...

Wait a minute. How'd we suddenly get to the DLCs being free? Since when were we talking about that? I thought we were just talking about the timing of releases.

And where on earth did you get the idea that I'm buying From Ashes or any other DLC? I'm better off if I have the option to buy them immediately, but I currently have no intention of exercising that option on day 1 or day 100.

EA previously had some kind of policy of releasing content, they called it DLC, call it whatever you like, worth 10$ on launch. That content was free for every purchase of the game but had to be manually activated and connected to your account. I don't see the problem with this.

The thing is that DLC takes time to develop. You could even say that it takes time that could have been invested in developing the main game (oh the herassy!). We don't want. We want the game as good as it can get at launch.

You are not buying From ashes? Good. Then at least you are voting with your wallet.