13369 réponses à ce sujet

[Zu Long]

GuyIncognito21 wrote...

TheOptimist wrote...
Just because many people WON'T pirate and still buy even when given the chance to pirate doesn't mean that stuff isn't still pirated.  Tons of people still pirate music that's available for a $1.30 on iTunes.  The Witcher 2, which gets held up as a great example of a game and company that supports and respects it's fanbase, has been pirated 4.5 Million times.  On the low side. 
http://www.geek.com/...times-20111130/

Now, is there an argument to be made that many of those pirating wouldn't have bought the game anyway? Sure.  But they still grabbed it for free, got some fun out of it, and laughed at the suckers who actually tried to support an anti-DRM company.  So you can defend pirates if you want.  But don't say it's only because Bioware and EA are meanies.  That's just a lie.

That's a straw man, and a misquote.  I explicitly said that people are going to pirate no matter what.  That's neither here nor there.  I was responding to your assertion that the behavior of the company has no real impact on whether people pirate things.

That's clearly not true.  Just think about it for a second.  If Bioware decided to charge $350 for a complete game instead of the $70 they're now asking, you don't think that would affect sales?  And you don't think some of the people who would be priced out at $350 (but will buy it at $70) would decide to pirate instead?  Of course they would!

So if you acknowledge that people respond to the price, then where's the disagreement?

When entertainment companies get antagonistic toward their customers, piracy goes up.  That should be beyond dispute.

Now whether this scheme is going to generate enough piracy to offset the extra money they're going to be able to leech out of people is another question.  It probably won't. 

But this isn't the last game Bioware is going to try and sell us, and reputation matters in this business.  While these unethical practices may benefit them in the short term, the damage to their reputation is going to harm them in the long run.

I don't get how it's unethical to charge us extra money for extra content. Especially when they told us months ago that there would be extra content available for extra money. That seems completely ethical to me.

[MartinDN]

neubourn wrote...

MartinDN wrote...

GuyIncognito21 wrote...

neubourn wrote...

But as soon as BW actually makes somethign WORTH getting a CE over, i.e. a prothy teammate and Eden Prime missions....wll....that just wont stand!!! How dare BW make GOOD content exclusive to a CE? The nerve of them!!!

Yeah, that's a complete misrepresentation of the argument.  The argument is not that the DLC is "good."  Undead Nightmare was a tremendous DLC for Red Dead Redemption.  Fallout has routinely had great DLC packages about which no one has complained.

The problem is that it's quite obvious here that this content was completed during the development cycle of the game, and that it's relevant to the core narrative of the game.

So it's DLC only in the sense that Bioware is selling it as such.

Indeed, reading the very early script you can tell the prothean was part of the original game, as was eden prime, it was NEVER mentioned to be DLC in anyway whatsoever. AKA It was in the original script.

If i was to hazard a guess id say they just took out the whole eden prime section and made it dlc. I really dont have any opinion on this matter, but to say it was made by a different team when it was in the script....

This is how developers make games now....they develop them with DLC in mind. If you all seriously believe that DLC is always made months after your release, then you really have no clue about how games are made. Pretty much every developer makes their games with DLC in mind, and as such...they plan ahead...even during regular development. 

Sure, at one point, it was seen as a way to extend the life of a title, by offering content months after release, but as i said...nowadays, they pretty much all develop their game prepped for DLC. 

Its just hard to expect from a company like bioware thats all. I can believe it of say infinity ward who has the DLC that launches months after release, actually on the disc at launch... but this. I just dont like it, the casual lie that it was seperate to the story and thus made by a different team. Its pivotal to the story, was in the original script and was made on developer budget...and thus the ones who have the CE do NOT have the full intended content complete game. I just feel its a shameful cash crab. 

[nevar00]

Evilelf007 wrote...

Just because he's a Prothean doesn't mean he is in any way essential to anything! How can a guy who's been completely out of touch of the entire galaxy from a race that completely failed to stop the reapers be suddenly essential now? He will have lore and history not before available, but he will not be vital to anything...

You guys just feel that because he's a Prothean, a member of the race that all of Mass Effect's tech was supposedly based off of (which it wasn't really, it's all based off of Reaper tech), he MUST be important. Get that idea out of your head right now... as he will be more for the fun of the idea more than essential to anything at all. You will be sorely disappointed if that is your expectation.

The fact that there is a living member of a thought-to-be dead species should have been important enough to make it into the main game.  Regardless of if he was going to be important to the plot itself or not.  Regardless of if he's a random soldier or a top scientist.  The Protheans have been built up for 2 games: to have a member of their species turn out to be alive should be a big reveal in the game, similiar to Legion, and not tacked on as DLC.

Now if they thought this was insignificant enough to only include as DLC well, in that case there must be something wrong with Bioware's writing staff.

[v_Zalem]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Kraveal wrote...

This is simply despicable and because of it I sadly wont see the finale of the Mass Effect series. I'm saddened by such greedy business tactics.

I find Wal-Mart's business practices to be absolutely horrendous.

Guess who shops at Wal-Mart?

#ihaveneeds

I can't help but to agree with that now that I've seen it first hand (I work there).

[PaulSX]

DifferentD17 wrote...

So is the only reason they included multiplayer was so that would be the online pass and prothy would be DLC? So we are basically going to be paying $10 for multiplayer, since alot of fans don't care about multiplayer.

if that's the reason, I'd rather they create a option for players to choose multiplayer or prothy in the SE of the game.

[DifferentD17]

Zu Long wrote...

Uh...it wasn't removed. That line about additional mission and characters stayed up on their Collectors edition page the entire time. I very specifically remember looking at it. Given that the CE was announced before Multiplayer was, I don't know why you would have assumed it was anything other than what it said- additional mission and characters. If you weren't certain, there were a number of places to ask, including twitter. Or the forum. Or by pming one of the Bioware reps.

Just because it says that on one image in the fine print and then not on any other of the places you can actually purchase the product from doesn't mean I assume it's in the product on other websites when they don't say anything about that. I've asked things before not gotten replies. You realise how much extra work this is right? When they could've just put it on the bullet points on the product pages, and yet they purposely removed it.

[GuyIncognito21]

fropas wrote...
But my CE is a ticket that gives me access to more content than a SE is entitled to. Why else would I pay more money for it? I bought the CE because I want EVERYTHING the game has to offer, and yes this includes the extra "chapters/scenes" that the author edited out because he didn't think they were necessary to the canonical SE experience.

I disagree with the bold, and I suspect everyone on my side of this feels the same.  I don't think they cut the character and content because they weren't necessary.

I think they cut them precisely because they WERE necessary and they knew that by withholding it (and subsequently leaking its existence), they could drum up more CE sales and more $10 DLC sales.

Zaeed wasn't necessary to the experience.  A character and mission that conceivably answer some of the biggest questions in the series is not in the same category.

[Empiro]

Meesherbeans wrote...

Digifi wrote...

Wait, let me get this straight...we've known for months that the Prothean character existed. CE buyers paid $25 more for that DLC and some trinkets. Since the DLC is $10 the trinkets must be $15 which sounds about right for what the production cost of those trinkets probably are. Either way, CE buyers paid for this DLC, and now a bunch of you are saying you shouldn't have to? If Bioware really knew how to troll they would have made Prothy a CE exclusive. Then we'd see a bunch of threads titled "I'll buy Prothy's freedom! Petition Bioware to make Prothy a DLC everyone can buy!"

Took the words right out of my mouth. I have nothing more to add other than:

/signed

I've been away from the boards, to avoid spoilers and I had no idea the DLC even existed (it wasn't clear on Amazon), and I'd still have bought the CE had they given out the $10 giftcards like for the regular edition. It had quite a few goodies in it.

So no, many people didn't know about this DLC pack, and to many of us, it has come as a great surprise. That's why we're so upset.

[RocketManSR2]

Let's see here, I've missed most of this "discussion,", but let me see if I can sum it up so far.....

"Day 1 DLC is evil blahblahblah, EA is evil blahblahblah, BioWare is evil blahblahblah, and Preorder cancelled!"

How'd I do?

[RiouHotaru]

Digifi wrote...

Wait, let me get this straight...we've known for months that the Prothean character existed. CE buyers paid $25 more for that DLC and some trinkets. Since the DLC is $10 the trinkets must be $15 which sounds about right for what the production cost of those trinkets probably are. Either way, CE buyers paid for this DLC, and now a bunch of you are saying you shouldn't have to? If Bioware really knew how to troll they would have made Prothy a CE exclusive. Then we'd see a bunch of threads titled "I'll buy Prothy's freedom! Petition Bioware to make Prothy a DLC everyone can buy!"

Seconded.

[Draconis6666]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

This is my last preorder/day 1 purchase from both Bioware and EA. Bioware has sold out completely. I won't purchase EA games until they are under $10 from now on out.

DLC is fine. Day 1 DLC is okay. Day 1 DLC that was content cut from the game is barely acceptable.

But Day 1 DLC using content cut from the game that is an important part of the story is insane.

Cept its not but ok, have fun with that luckily for you because of DLC and the milllions of casual gamers that everyone seems to hate because they turn their "awesome rpgs" into COD clones video games havent been forced to raise prices to keep up with inflation so you can actualy still find a game for $10 

[RiouHotaru]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Yeah, (minor spoiler) the Prothean is basically like Shale.

Which is exactly as he should be.  But people seem to believe you have to be either all-in or all out.

...These folks would suck at poker.

[GuyIncognito21]

Zu Long wrote...
I don't get how it's unethical to charge us extra money for extra content. Especially when they told us months ago that there would be extra content available for extra money. That seems completely ethical to me.

The entire debate is about whether the content is extra!    If I sell you a car and say the floormats are extra, fine, I accept that.

If I sell you the same car and say "the transmission will cost you extra," that's entirely different.  

[Draconis6666]

GuyIncognito21 wrote...
I disagree with the bold, and I suspect everyone on my side of this feels the same.  I don't think they cut the character and content because they weren't necessary.

I think they cut them precisely because they WERE necessary and they knew that by withholding it (and subsequently leaking its existence), they could drum up more CE sales and more $10 DLC sales.

Zaeed wasn't necessary to the experience.  A character and mission that conceivably answer some of the biggest questions in the series is not in the same category.

This is fine if thats your belief but it is simply conjecture and no reason to cry outrage because you have nothing to suport it beyond your opinoin which is not a valid reason to complain and demand things from a company.

[Azure33]

Zu Long wrote...


I don't get how it's unethical to charge us extra money for extra content. Especially when they told us months ago that there would be extra content available for extra money. That seems completely ethical to me.

It is irrelevant whether it is demonstrably unethical. What is relevant is that it has upset many customers and potential customers. Perception is more important thatn actual truth when it comes to how consumers feel about your company. There is a widely held perception that BioWare has been abusing the DLC system over the last several titles they have released. What they have done with ME 3 day 0 DLC has solidified that perception in consumers minds. Some consumers, including myself, will now consider whether to buy another title from BioWare based on this perception. 

That is bad for their business.

[Empiro]

GuyIncognito21 wrote...

fropas wrote...
But my CE is a ticket that gives me access to more content than a SE is entitled to. Why else would I pay more money for it? I bought the CE because I want EVERYTHING the game has to offer, and yes this includes the extra "chapters/scenes" that the author edited out because he didn't think they were necessary to the canonical SE experience.

I disagree with the bold, and I suspect everyone on my side of this feels the same.  I don't think they cut the character and content because they weren't necessary.

I think they cut them precisely because they WERE necessary and they knew that by withholding it (and subsequently leaking its existence), they could drum up more CE sales and more $10 DLC sales.

Zaeed wasn't necessary to the experience.  A character and mission that conceivably answer some of the biggest questions in the series is not in the same category.

Not to mention that any mentions of Zaeed, Shale or whoever else only underscores the fact that those DLCs were FREE if you got the game new.

[Draconis6666]

RocketManSR2 wrote...

Let's see here, I've missed most of this "discussion,", but let me see if I can sum it up so far.....

"Day 1 DLC is evil blahblahblah, EA is evil blahblahblah, BioWare is evil blahblahblah, and Preorder cancelled!"

How'd I do?

Pretty good but you forgot "PROTHEANS ARE THE  WHOLE PLOT OF MASS EFFECT!"

[Unit-Alpha]

Draconis6666 wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

This is my last preorder/day 1 purchase from both Bioware and EA. Bioware has sold out completely. I won't purchase EA games until they are under $10 from now on out.

DLC is fine. Day 1 DLC is okay. Day 1 DLC that was content cut from the game is barely acceptable.

But Day 1 DLC using content cut from the game that is an important part of the story is insane.

Cept its not but ok, have fun with that luckily for you because of DLC and the milllions of casual gamers that everyone seems to hate because they turn their "awesome rpgs" into COD clones video games havent been forced to raise prices to keep up with inflation so you can actualy still find a game for $10 

I have almost no clue what you just said. Grammar, please.

And no, you're wrong. Blatantly so. Look at The Witcher. Very hardcore, excellent sales. Am I missing something?

And it's a proven marketing fact that lower price points leads to higher sales, both in actual sales and net profts.

Modifié par Unit-Alpha, 23 février 2012 - 05:59 .

[Lithen]

Bull****, it was no more then 10 days ago that ME3 went gold!
They modeled, textured, voiced and put the dialogues together in 8 days?
Not mentioning pushing it past Q&A and legal business that otherwise delays patches etc for weeks?
Also, a Prothean is NOT something OPTIONAL!
That's like saying the reapers or the Normandy isn't a big deal, and selling it off as Day-one DLC.
If i buy the standard Edition i expect to get the complete game, that is, everything developed BEFORE going Gold!

This i will not stand for, i'm not buying your game Bioware, i'm sad to say it cause i love Mass Effect!

[Evilelf007]

nevar00 wrote...

Evilelf007 wrote...

Just because he's a Prothean doesn't mean he is in any way essential to anything! How can a guy who's been completely out of touch of the entire galaxy from a race that completely failed to stop the reapers be suddenly essential now? He will have lore and history not before available, but he will not be vital to anything...

You guys just feel that because he's a Prothean, a member of the race that all of Mass Effect's tech was supposedly based off of (which it wasn't really, it's all based off of Reaper tech), he MUST be important. Get that idea out of your head right now... as he will be more for the fun of the idea more than essential to anything at all. You will be sorely disappointed if that is your expectation.

The fact that there is a living member of a thought-to-be dead species should have been important enough to make it into the main game.  Regardless of if he was going to be important to the plot itself or not.  Regardless of if he's a random soldier or a top scientist.  The Protheans have been built up for 2 games: to have a member of their species turn out to be alive should be a big reveal in the game, similiar to Legion, and not tacked on as DLC.

Now if they thought this was insignificant enough to only include as DLC well, in that case there must be something wrong with Bioware's writing staff.

So again, you are only upset not because of the essentialness of the character, but the coolness of having a Prothean squadmate.  Maybe you should've thought ahead and gone for the CE seeing all the cool stuff it came with... including a free extra squadmate.  That's what I saw and why I pre-ordered my CE copy ASAP!

You are only upset that you are now finding out you have to pay extra for something so cool.  A lot of us already anticipated such a thing and are being rewarded for it!

Again, you only have yourself to blame IMO.

[Savber100]

Bioware did not sell out to EA.

Bioware is EA.

This isn't some subsidiary or some temporary company under EA's branch. Bioware is part of the EA just as much as my arm is part of my body.

Anyways, ah Bioware... It's getting too hard to defend tactics like this especially with companies like CD Projekt RED which are giving out free 3-4 hours worth of content. 


Is it really worth it? To risk your once-perfect reputation as a great game developer just for a few bucks? I hope so because I'm honestly grasping for straws in trying to justify this.

Modifié par Savber100, 23 février 2012 - 06:01 .

[escapeartist80]

GuyIncognito21 wrote...

Sargerus wrote...

Its hilarious that ppl are thinking : "Lets boycott ME3 to teach EA/BW a lesson!"

ME3 will sell like water in the middle of the desert.


Every end of a trilogy sells A LOT, here are some examples:

Halo 3
Modern Warfare 3( hopefully MW4 will not happen)
Spiderman 3
Transformers 3
SW: Return of the Jedi
Lotr: Return of the King


Boycott or not. ME3 will sell A LOT. BW/EA have nothing to be worried about.

If this was the last thing Bioware and EA were ever going to try and hawk to people, then sure, that's a valid argument.  It doesn't make their behavior anymore ethical, but it supports the suggestion that they'd get away with it.

More likely, though, Bioware and EA are going to continue trying to sell games to the very consumers they're now antagonizing. 

There's a long term price to be paid for treating your consumers with contempt.  Some will stop buying the games, some will turn to piracy, others will nerf the reviews.  People can stick their head in the sand all they want and pretend these things don't matter, but they do.  They matter enough that the MPAA and the RIAA have spent the last decade spending tens of millions of dollars in litigation costs trying to regain what they think their lost customers have taken from them.

That's not a viable business model, and it's not an ethical one.

Very true indeed. However Both the movie industry, the music industry and the games industry refuse to accept that their own greed is such a large cause for piracy. So instead of handeling the problem at the root, they choose to quell the symptoms, in true kapitalistic fashion.

Real world examples of entertainment industry arrogance:
- Games are cheaper if you buy the box copy than if you buy a digital copy. (beyond stupid but the easiest to explain)
- Games are easier to install and run if you pirate them cause you dont have to deal with copy protection.
- You have to wait YEARS to see your favorite series since they dont show them on the net outside US. (probably the same reason games are cheaper as box copy - retailers)
- The music industry tried for many years to stop technological advancements since it was easy to transfer data between the new hardware.
- Smaller game companies being sued by the big boys for no logical reason.
- Big companies like EA & Activision, trying to control and own the net with SOPA / PIPA.
- HUGE price difference between countries.
- Copy protection on words!?!? WTF!?!? When did a language become something a company can own?

So yes we should be in uproar, and we most certanly should let it be known that we are pissed.

[TheOptimist]

GuyIncognito21 wrote...

TheOptimist wrote...
Just because many people WON'T pirate and still buy even when given the chance to pirate doesn't mean that stuff isn't still pirated.  Tons of people still pirate music that's available for a $1.30 on iTunes.  The Witcher 2, which gets held up as a great example of a game and company that supports and respects it's fanbase, has been pirated 4.5 Million times.  On the low side. 
http://www.geek.com/...times-20111130/

Now, is there an argument to be made that many of those pirating wouldn't have bought the game anyway? Sure.  But they still grabbed it for free, got some fun out of it, and laughed at the suckers who actually tried to support an anti-DRM company.  So you can defend pirates if you want.  But don't say it's only because Bioware and EA are meanies.  That's just a lie.

That's a straw man, and a misquote.  I explicitly said that people are going to pirate no matter what.  That's neither here nor there.  I was responding to your assertion that the behavior of the company has no real impact on whether people pirate things.

Do you have evidence beyond just your assertions that it DOES have an impact?  Cause again, Witcher 2, a game made by a company that explicitly rejects DRM, was likely pirated at a 5-1 rate, if not higher. 

That's clearly not true.  Just think about it for a second.  If Bioware decided to charge $350 for a complete game instead of the $70 they're now asking, you don't think that would affect sales?  And you don't think some of the people who would be priced out at $350 (but will buy it at $70) would decide to pirate instead?  Of course they would!

That not as many people would buy it is not in question.  Would more people pirate it?  I wonder about that one.  At a ridiculous 5 times the games current sale price, they probably would be pirated more, but I'm not sure it would be much more.  Most would just wait till the price came down, as it inevitably WOULD after their stock sat on shelves unsold.

So if you acknowledge that people respond to the price, then where's the disagreement?

Again, I'm not sure piracy and price are so inextricably linked as you like to imagine.  FREE is still better than any price to such people.  There is a certain amount of piracy that may arise if your product is ridiculously overpriced ($20 for one or two good songs)  but $60 vs. $70?  I doubt it.

When entertainment companies get antagonistic toward their customers, piracy goes up.  That should be beyond dispute.

I'd still like some numbers that don't start with 'I assume'.

Now whether this scheme is going to generate enough piracy to offset the extra money they're going to be able to leech out of people is another question.  It probably won't. 

But this isn't the last game Bioware is going to try and sell us, and reputation matters in this business.  While these unethical practices may benefit them in the short term, the damage to their reputation is going to harm them in the long run.

One, it's not unethical.  Making extra content they wouldn't normally make available at day 1 is GOOD, imo.  Two, it may very well damage their reputation with people who are convinced that if they rage enough they can make a company give them something that was always planned as costing extra for free, but I'm betting that's not the people they were planning to sell to anyway. Sorry, but I've seen WAAAAAAAY too many 'preorder cancelled' topics for this one to be especially worrisome to me.

Modifié par TheOptimist, 23 février 2012 - 06:03 .

[fatalmaverick]

Edit

Modifié par fatalmaverick, 23 février 2012 - 06:01 .

[Bluko]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

I'm pretty sure the number of people boycotting because of this is lower than the number of people who preordered the N7 edition. Losing a few hundred sales is preferable to having to refund thousands of people ten dollars each. Hence, we're sh*tting ourselves if we expect them to make "From Ashes" free.

If they actually make it free for all new copies (and refunded the people who already purchased it), then I'll eat my words. My respect for Bioware/EA will increase tenfold. But let's not be stupid or get our hopes up.

Pigs would have to fly.

But yes you are right I'm sure vast majority of people won't/don't care. Or at least won't care until release. And I'm sure when people come here to complain the CE owners will just laugh. However whether everyone in the end is actually satisfied with this may be a different story. To me this seems another bad case of giving firewood to ever growing group of would be Bioware haters.

As for me I kind of have a thing about not supporting things I don't like. And this is definitely one of them. I'm just making sure they know why, which is actually pretty nice. Granted I'm sure that they are laughing if they even read my posts as in reality the loss of $20-$40 from me probably doesn't mean anything to them. I'm just an insignificant crybaby. ME3 already has like 750K Pre-Orders so it's already probably a success. Unless the other 2,250,000 people who have probably played the series, flat out refuse to buy the game. Though for that to be possible I think ME3 would have to be something awful for that happen. Truth is I do not doubt ME3 will outsell ME2 and sell around 3.3 millionish.

However I do not care if everyone loves or hates ME3. My only concern is will I actually like it? And right now I'm pretty damn skeptical if not slightly mad about some things.