13369 réponses à ce sujet

[nitefyre410]

[quote]Zu Long wrote...

*snip*


[/quote]

I don't get how it's unethical to charge us extra money for extra content. Especially when they told us months ago that there would be extra content available for extra money. That seems completely ethical to me.

[/quote] 

For the most part are correct but its gets shady when you A.) announce the what once  Exclusive Content  to CE is now for everyone and B.) charge everyone  who did not get the  10 bucks..

Here is way because it is very  safe check that to right..unless bioware prints two entirely seperate set of disc- that the content is already on the disc  that those who  get the SE paid for. Now for most comestic  things like customs, guns etc, is what ever... When you start talking about quest,characters etc.. your stepping into a very shady  area. Now you charge one set  customers more for game play content.   

Now your defense can be the CE people  paid the extra tens bucks for - Okay

But the  artbook would run about $5-$7, the soundtrack easily $15-20 dollars... covers the cost of the additional $20 there.. so  essentially   the CE customer still get its for free.  

If its not on the  disc then the whole debate is pointless and I will go on my happy merry way

[GuyIncognito21]

Draconis6666 wrote...
It's relevance to the core narrative of the game is subjective to your opinion and does not make it fact, even if you had a clue what is actualy included in the DLC in relation to the game or what it adds/subtracts

If it's NOT relevant, then Bioware and EA are wilfully allowing its importance to be overstated in an attempt to drum up more sales.

The timing of the "leak" also becomes much more suspect in that case.

I think if alot of the people complaining about how it was "obviously" finished during the development cycle actualy took the time to learn about how games are made and the different processes they go through and how many times ideas are cut, re added, re cut, redesigned  sidelinded and picked back up even just in the pre-production phase well before anything even goes to be worked on you would have a much different view on the issue.

It's obviously complete because it's already on Xbox live and the game isn't out yet.  Now if you want to get into semantics aside from that, be my guest, but it's irrelevant.

It's clear this content could be in the game the day the game drops because... it's going to be in the game the day the game drops.

[Draconis6666]

Azure33 wrote...


It is irrelevant whether it is demonstrably unethical. What is relevant is that it has upset many customers and potential customers. Perception is more important thatn actual truth when it comes to how consumers feel about your company. There is a widely held perception that BioWare has been abusing the DLC system over the last several titles they have released. What they have done with ME 3 day 0 DLC has solidified that perception in consumers minds. Some consumers, including myself, will now consider whether to buy another title from BioWare based on this perception. 

That is bad for their business.

Only if those consumers represent enough consumers to impact the business which no one can claim at this point with actual proof. Until sales of ME 3 are figures that can be looked at you have nothing but your opinion on if their business practice is bad or not. The simple fact that you and some people ont his forum and some gaming sites disagree with the practice does not make it a bad business practice. No business is ever going to please all of its customers, but as long as the majority of the customers agree with and go along with it they are not impacting their business significantly. If it turns out in the end that the majority agree with you then  you would be correct but at the moment its an irrelevant argument because you have no idea how many consumers are dis-satisfied to know if its even enough to cause an impact in sales.

[fropas]

GuyIncognito21 wrote...

fropas wrote...
But my CE is a ticket that gives me access to more content than a SE is entitled to. Why else would I pay more money for it? I bought the CE because I want EVERYTHING the game has to offer, and yes this includes the extra "chapters/scenes" that the author edited out because he didn't think they were necessary to the canonical SE experience.

I disagree with the bold, and I suspect everyone on my side of this feels the same.  I don't think they cut the character and content because they weren't necessary.

I think they cut them precisely because they WERE necessary and they knew that by withholding it (and subsequently leaking its existence), they could drum up more CE sales and more $10 DLC sales.

Zaeed wasn't necessary to the experience.  A character and mission that conceivably answer some of the biggest questions in the series is not in the same category.

That's not a decision we get to make as consumers. We can complain and criticize the product we get but we aren't in control of its content. All we can do is decide whether we'll buy it, if it's worth the money, and what to do with it afterward. 

If you think this character has the answer you seek, perhaps he's worth investing in, but I'm going to laugh my ass off if he ends up being a "fish-monger" or something. I was willing to buy the CE even before the Prothy was leaked. I want EVERYTHING and I'm willing to pay for it. 

[AdmiralCheez]

nevar00 wrote...

Who said anything about refunding money?

Me.

If Joe Wangstandwhine doesn't have to pay for the DLC that I already dropped an extra ten bucks for, I should get my ten bucks back.  Because I'm a customer too, here.  But that won't happen because:

DLC remains as a CE bonus or for seperate purchase = a few sales are lost, but profit remains high.
Free DLC with no refund = no profit, customers who already paid feel cheated.
Free DLC with refund = negative profit (it would actually COST money for them to do this), doubtful increase in sales would cover for losses.

The smart thing to do here would be to have a sale where you get double Bioware Points on the dollar or something.  Profits go up, customer satisfaction goes up.

I'm not saying day one DLC isn't a dick move, but now that it exists, they will either proceed with the plan in the face of boycotts or be forced into some seriously fancy marketing footwork.

[Psynonamous635]

umm... Has nobody considered the possibility that Bioware has seperate staff working on DLC while the main game is being made? ME2 had some DLC show up shortly after release, it just makes sense to make the extras while the main game is being made to minimize errors and make sure it merges together smoother. ME2 Collectors Edition included bonus content and characters on day one, ME3 Collectors Edition was listed (from the start) that it would include bonus content and characters on day one.

I think the main reason for the anger is simply the who the character is - if the day one DLC character was Scruffy the Janitor, I doubt there would be this much anger...

As for the price, SE is $60 CE is $70, the DLC is projected to be $10 - but there is a chance it will be on sale for a while.

I am actually eager to finish out the story and see what the third game brings to the table which is why I pre-ordered the CE a while ago and have tried to avoid/ignore all the spoilers...

[Draconis6666]

GuyIncognito21 wrote...

It's obviously complete because it's already on Xbox live and the game isn't out yet.  Now if you want to get into semantics aside from that, be my guest, but it's irrelevant.

It's clear this content could be in the game the day the game drops because... it's going to be in the game the day the game drops.

The core game itself was completed in January so that doesnt prove anything, except that again you dont understand the concept of how a game development cycle actualy works.

[MartinDN]

Everyone just think of this one point, the first 2 games most important mystery, a race we didnt even know how they looked, the protheans - there a complete mystery - and now the only single living one left is a squadmate if you pay money for it DEVELOPED AND THOUGHT OF BEFORE LAUNCH. It is not irrevelant to the story. dont be naive its a cash grab.

Im sorry but its too hard to believe considering its in the very early original non spellchecked script.

Modifié par MartinDN, 23 février 2012 - 06:05 .

[Kiltman]

wrote...
Wait, let me get this straight...we've known for months that the Prothean character existed. CE buyers paid $25 more for that DLC and some trinkets. Since the DLC is $10 the trinkets must be $15 which sounds about right for what the production cost of those trinkets probably are. Either way, CE buyers paid for this DLC, and now a bunch of you are saying you shouldn't have to? If Bioware really knew how to troll they would have made Prothy a CE exclusive. Then we'd see a bunch of threads titled "I'll buy Prothy's freedom! Petition Bioware to make Prothy a DLC everyone can buy!"

This
I paid 10 bucks more in addition to prothy.....for my ten bucks I got
-the soundtrack
-an art book 
-a robo-dog
-a hoody for shep
-an alt appearance pack for Liara, Kaiden, Ashley, and Vega
- a Normandy Lithograph
-a N7 fabric patch
- a mass effect comic
- a fancy steel case


All cool stuff and well worth the ten bucks, but nothin game changing

Modifié par zooky67, 23 février 2012 - 06:04 .

[PaulSX]

Savber100 wrote...

Bioware did not sell out to EA.

Bioware is EA.

This isn't some subsidiary or some temporary company under EA's branch. Bioware is part of the EA just as much as my arm is part of my body.

Anyways, ah Bioware... It's getting too hard to defend tactics like this?

Is it really worth it? To risk your once-perfect reputation as a great game developer just for a few bucks? I hope so because I'm honestly grasping for straws in trying to justify this.

you have no idea how much money EA gained from DLC sales. I do not know either, but I think it's huge enough for them to put another day 1 dlc out.

[Jango2]

This is not acceptable. A -living- Prothean Squadmember, something that's -deeply- immersive and important to the Lore that is not only a -huge- spoiler, but now exclusive DLC for people that buy the Collector's Edition or pay ten bucks.

That is -far- too important to the storyline to make optional content and completely unacceptable that it's not being offered to everyone from the get go for free, because it's pre-release content that -could- be put on the disc. It's done. It's finished. You could DOWNLOAD IT TWO WEEKS EARLY.

Why isn't it free? Why is this acceptable? You cannot do the same thing you did with Dragon Age 2 with Sebastian. He wasn't important to the story. He wasn't relevant to the end plot. He could be justified as being optional.

A -PROTHEAN?!- You can't justify that being optional unless there's another Prothean squadmember already in the game, and as far as I know, there isn't. You cannot simply -tease- us by offering this content at launch, going "OH LOOK A LIVING PROTHEAN ALIVE AND WELL AND HERE TO STOP THE REAPERS! YOU WANT AN EXPLANATION?! Ten bucks please."

That is blatantly offensive and unacceptable as a fan and a consumer, and I'm downright shocked and appalled that it was even considered, let alone being implemented. Offer. It. For. Free.

[Shatterhand1701]

GuyIncognito21 wrote...

Zu Long wrote...
I don't get how it's unethical to charge us extra money for extra content. Especially when they told us months ago that there would be extra content available for extra money. That seems completely ethical to me.

The entire debate is about whether the content is extra!    If I sell you a car and say the floormats are extra, fine, I accept that.

If I sell you the same car and say "the transmission will cost you extra," that's entirely different.  

Because you need a transmission in order to make the car operational.  You don't need floormats.  They're great to have, but not essential...just like the Prothean is not essential to being able to play and finish ME3.

Everyone talking about how the Prothean is essential content is only basing that off of some spoiler dialogue, a script, and opinion based on their viewpoint of the ME universe.  They have yet to see anything about the character in the context of the ME3 storyline (not the whole trilogy, just the 3rd game's story, specifically) and they have yet to see how the game plays out in his absence.  Maybe once the game comes out, one person should play it with the DLC in the game, and another should play it without the DLC and see what differences there are.  I'd almost place bets on seeing both outcomes posted on Youtube or something like it.

[fatalmaverick]

1) The Protheans are a major plot point of the mass effect series. EA knows this, and as incentive for you to buy their 'collectors edition', they cut him out of the main game and force you to pay extra for it.

2) This is not an argument between CE and Non-CE. This is an argument that EA should never have offered this as DLC, in any way, ever. This should have been accessible to everybody in the bare bones main game, no charges needed.

3) A prothean is NOT the same as Shale. Shale was randomly introduced in DA and did not have a base in a complete two games as a main plot point!

4) This is a question of principle. We simply cannot let companies shove us around and remove content that is important to the main game and sell it as DLC. EA stops nickel and diming us for every single piece of content here.

[Zu Long]

nitefyre410 wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

GuyIncognito21 wrote...

fropas wrote...

But they're not alienating consumers. . .you want the character? Pay for him--be the consumer you claim to be. Otherwise, you're essentially complaining about not getting a character that was only promised to CE consumers. Are you a ME3 CE consumer? No? Then how are you being alienated? 

They quite obviously are, or this thread wouldn't have grown 50 pages in the last 4 hours.

They promised exclusives to the CE, that's correct.  They didn't promise exclusives integral to the narrative the series has to tell.

That's the distinction the defenders of this policy don't seem to make.  You're treating this like a ticket that gives you free concessions at the movie theater, and to many of us it's a ticket that entitles you to see the last 10 minuts of the movie that you only get to see if you pay extra.

But its not. It's more like the directors commentary on the special edition DVD. Awesome? Possibly. Informative? Almost certainly. Necessary to enjoy the movie? Nah, not at all.

Edit: Ninja'd by AdmiralCheez.

 

True  a better example

You got to eat you order nice  say  Steak and Seafoad dinner .. you are hungry and have been looking forward this , food comes out... Seafood is cooked but the Steak is a frozen block of  nice red 100% USDA  approved beef. Only way it would any more fresh if they walked   the cow to  you mowing.  

Yeah  can still eat   but you paid for a Surf and Turf not just a surf you going to send the meal back right? 

Again, inaccurate. This is more like the guy in front of you buys a big mac meal. Gets a drink and fries with his Big mac. You walk up, order a big mac. When your burger comes out, you ask why you didn't get fries, cause the guy in front of you did, and he got his order in about the same amount of time it took them to produce your big mac. The response? "Yeah, but he bought the meal."

The fact that you did not get fries with your big mac does not change the fact that you got a full and complete big mac, just as delicious as the first guy's. You just didn't get fries, because you didn't pay for them.

[Draconis6666]

nitefyre410 wrote...

For the most part are correct but its gets shady when you A.) announce the what once  Exclusive Content  to CE is now for everyone and B.) charge everyone  who did not get the  10 bucks..

Here is way because it is very  safe check that to right..unless bioware prints two entirely seperate set of disc- that the content is already on the disc  that those who  get the SE paid for. Now for most comestic  things like customs, guns etc, is what ever... When you start talking about quest,characters etc.. your stepping into a very shady  area. Now you charge one set  customers more for game play content.   

Now your defense can be the CE people  paid the extra tens bucks for - Okay

But the  artbook would run about $5-$7, the soundtrack easily $15-20 dollars... covers the cost of the additional $20 there.. so  essentially   the CE customer still get its for free.  

If its not on the  disc then the whole debate is pointless and I will go on my happy merry way

Considering its a 600mb download for the early leak i doubt the DLC is on the disc for either version. The CE will simply have a download code for it that allows them to get it for free just like all CE DLC always has, it is rarely EVER actualy included on the disc with the game.

[Skorvitch]

gabe2gg wrote...

biodrones supporting this will only lead to better things with Bioware's next project, can't wait.

I read that in Wrex's voice for some reason.

[Evilelf007]

nitefyre410 wrote...


For the most part are correct but its gets shady when you A.) announce the what once  Exclusive Content  to CE is now for everyone and B.) charge everyone  who did not get the  10 bucks..

Here is way because it is very  safe check that to right..unless bioware prints two entirely seperate set of disc- that the content is already on the disc  that those who  get the SE paid for. Now for most comestic  things like customs, guns etc, is what ever... When you start talking about quest,characters etc.. your stepping into a very shady  area. Now you charge one set  customers more for game play content.   

Now your defense can be the CE people  paid the extra tens bucks for - Okay

But the  artbook would run about $5-$7, the soundtrack easily $15-20 dollars... covers the cost of the additional $20 there.. so  essentially   the CE customer still get its for free.  

If its not on the  disc then the whole debate is pointless and I will go on my happy merry way

As someone who also got the CE of ME2, no the extra content will not be on disc.  I will be free to download for those with the CE... the disc copy of the game will be the exact same disc copy in the standard version.  CE will just have a code that will make the CE content downloadable for no charge.

Modifié par Evilelf007, 23 février 2012 - 06:06 .

[fropas]

GuyIncognito21 wrote...

Zu Long wrote...
I don't get how it's unethical to charge us extra money for extra content. Especially when they told us months ago that there would be extra content available for extra money. That seems completely ethical to me.

The entire debate is about whether the content is extra!    If I sell you a car and say the floormats are extra, fine, I accept that.

If I sell you the same car and say "the transmission will cost you extra," that's entirely different.  

The prothy is not the "wheels" and he is not the "transmission" you can still play ME3 even without the prothy. These metaphors are inaccurate measurements of the prothy's importance. You can still "start" and "drive" you game, so please stop making metaphors that convey that you can't.

[Unit-Alpha]

Hey, all of you defending removing the Prothean as it not being that important to the story, would you have said the same thing if they had done that to Legion? Same situation.

Modifié par Unit-Alpha, 23 février 2012 - 06:07 .

[Yuoaman]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

nevar00 wrote...

Who said anything about refunding money?

Me.

If Joe Wangstandwhine doesn't have to pay for the DLC that I already dropped an extra ten bucks for, I should get my ten bucks back.  Because I'm a customer too, here.  But that won't happen because:

DLC remains as a CE bonus or for seperate purchase = a few sales are lost, but profit remains high.
Free DLC with no refund = no profit, customers who already paid feel cheated.
Free DLC with refund = negative profit (it would actually COST money for them to do this), doubtful increase in sales would cover for losses.

The smart thing to do here would be to have a sale where you get double Bioware Points on the dollar or something.  Profits go up, customer satisfaction goes up.

I'm not saying day one DLC isn't a dick move, but now that it exists, they will either proceed with the plan in the face of boycotts or be forced into some seriously fancy marketing footwork.

They would still make a profit if they made the DLC free - since people would have an incentive to buy the game new, or to buy the online pass if they bought it used - just like ME2. Or did ME2 become a colossal failure when I was looking away?

[Empiro]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

I'm pretty sure the number of people boycotting because of this is lower than the number of people who preordered the N7 edition. Losing a few hundred sales is preferable to having to refund thousands of people ten dollars each. Hence, we're sh*tting ourselves if we expect them to make "From Ashes" free.

If they actually make it free for all new copies (and refunded the people who already purchased it), then I'll eat my words. My respect for Bioware/EA will increase tenfold. But let's not be stupid or get our hopes up.

Except that it's not clear AT ALL that such content was included in the CE.

Here's a link to Gamestop's page. Can you point out where it says that "From Ashes" is included?

http://www.gamestop....p&cross=D004975

And please don't say that I should have come to the message board to find out. I was specifically avoiding this board to avoid spoilers (because I spoiled a bunch of ME2 for myself here).

[GuyIncognito21]

Draconis6666 wrote...
This is fine if thats your belief but it is simply conjecture and no reason to cry outrage because you have nothing to suport it beyond your opinoin which is not a valid reason to complain and demand things from a company.

Actually, my opinion is the ONLY valid reason for me to complain about a company's business practices.  If my opinion were different, I daresay I wouldn't be complaining.

Of course it's conjecture.  Everything that everyone has said is conjecture.  Nobody has offered any "proof" for anything they've said, including the guy who purports to speak for the company whose practices are at issue.

[JJDrakken]

www.youtube.com/watch  Total Biscuit's thought on the matter, I agree.  Factor in Origin, I never thought I would honestly say this.  I am not going buy M.E.3, to this day I never thought I would say that.  Until Origin made a non requirement & this something fixed up.  My advetures of shepard end with ME2.


JJ

Modifié par JJDrakken, 23 février 2012 - 06:11 .

[Evilelf007]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Hey, all of you defending removing the Prothean as it not being that important to the story, would you have said the same thing if they had done that to Legion? Same situation.

Can't agree... the Prothean will likely compare more to Zaeed and Kasumi than he will to Legion.

He'll just likely have more interesting stories to tell than Zaeed did is all.

[Draconis6666]

fatalmaverick wrote...

2) This is not an argument between CE and Non-CE. This is an argument that EA should never have offered this as DLC, in any way, ever. This should have been accessible to everybody in the bare bones main game, no charges needed.

You would have just not gotten it at all then and it would never have existed which might arguably have been better, because it would have been simply scrapped and tossed aside when it was initialy cut from the game, and not completed for optional content once the game was submitted for certification over a month ago.