13369 réponses à ce sujet

[El Ejcovero]

Draconis6666 wrote...

El Ejcovero wrote...

As I said to Draconis6666 before you, the fact that the content EXISTS, means it should be in the game, the fact the PLANNED THIS makes it worse, because it is content that was deliberately left out, to be SOLD ON RELEASE. Even if they just made the DLC yesterday, it is still day one DLC they wan't you to pay for, which is unacceptable.

Almost all DLC is content that was planned years before release that is cut at some point for production deadlines and added in later. The fact that Bioware chose to add something that was cut in as DLC content before the game was done is not unethical or proof things were cut but proof of good planning and production management. The fact that it exists is not enough of a reason to demand that it should be in game, sure it exists now, do you know for a fact that it existed back in January when the final build of the game had to be submitted in order for us to actualy be able to buy ME 3 on March 6th? of course you don't and claiming so just makes you look childish. day one DLC is still content that is not part of the package you pay for when you pay $60 for the game, YOU do not decide what you get for your $60 once you agree to spend it the person who creates the prodcut does. They say your $60 does not include the Prothean and thats all there is to it. If you think your $60 should buy you more you dont spend it. 
It is not unethical and no different than the way every business in every industry operates. The Manufactuer and creator decide what the product is and is not, not the consumer. The consumer's only duty is to decide if they wish to buy that product or not. You are not losing anything by not buying it unless you decide you are. The reason most of the argument against paying for the DLC is weak is because those who are arguing the loudest clearly what the DLC because they somehow think wihtout it the game is not completely or because they simply dont want to pay for it, If the only argument that charging for day one DLC is not acceptable then you just wouldnt buy it, your argument is that you dont want to pay for day one DLC that you think its something you need, which is not a good argument.

I don't think anyone cares when the content was made, when the game was submitted, whatever, we live in the age of digital distribution, such trifling obstacles are easily overcome (day one patch, free day one DLC only free on day one), all I smell is a fan trying to justify something that is wrong. And actually DLC content a lot of times is actually content cut out from the design due to time constraints, the fact is it never got made, and they sell it later as an addition to the existing game. This is an ethical business practice. An unethical business practice is to have the content made, and finished before the release (it doesn't matter the hell when it was finished, this is still true as I said above, even if it was finished March 5), and sell it as an addon on release day, this is just money grubbing, it is good business, but unethical. Oh and trust me, those that feel as I do, won't pay the $60, remember what sparked all this? Some were boycotting? Remember? Did you even reading the opposing posts in that locked thread? 

[Raxxman]

Evilelf007 wrote...

ediskrad327 wrote...

i wonder how big would the uproar be if he had remained CE exclusive

Then the uproar wouldn't be about having to spend cash to get it, it would be not even getting the chance to spend the cash for it.

Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

They're damned because they've done.

I'd be really interested to see the ages/pay level breakdown of people on both sides of the arguement. It's easy to say $10 isn't a big deal when you've got the bank of mum and dad, no morgage etc.

For me, $10 isn't a big deal, hell $100 isn't a big deal (which is fortunate as that's the price of the CE edition here). But it doesn't mean I agree with BioWares current DLC policy.

Calling it a slippery slope falacy is blinkered. There's been a very obvious trend of increasing the level of paid day 0 DLC from BioWare since DA:O. ME3 is the first one which has plot related (not plot centric) DLC which hasn't been free for all preorders. It's a trend, sure people are going to speculate how far it will go, but to pretend it doesn't exist is just stupid. During DA:O's release people were adamant that day 0 plot DLC would always be free, to say otherwise was slippery slope falacy. Now the falacy is reality, the goal post have been moved, and those who were wrong back then, are somehow back to being right.

[Draconis6666]

DifferentD17 wrote...

Draconis6666 wrote...

Because its not Core content, its content you BELEVE is Core to your enjoyment of the game that is NOT the same thing, and not grounds for asking that it be given to you for free. It is only "CORE" content if the game would not functino without it

Then you could take out all side missions, and all other characters as well, the game would still function.

Yes you could, and everytime a game is made numerous side quests and characters are cut exactly as you say. With DLC some of those characters and sidequests are complteted later. Yes you could make a game that has no side quests and is just a single main quest and there are plenty of games like that linear adventure games with no sidequests and only a few key characters. What the developer actualy decides to give you is the core product and as long as it functions and works everything else that they may decide later to give you is optional. It is not your right to tell them "this product is not complete because it doesnt have A, B and C additional things that I think it should" you can deny them your money because you think it should have those things but you have no real right to demand they be included simply because you think it should and expect that to happen.

[fatalmaverick]

Evilelf007 wrote...

What, is this turning into "Occupy Bioware"? Everyone feels entitled to something they think is cool, and want it in the cheaper price bracket.

Too many entitled people in this world. Fewer and fewer people are willing to work for what they want, they expect it to be given to them.

Everyone saw the packaging advertising, everyone knew the CE was getting cool in game dlc on day one... NOW those not getting the CE are upset about it and want it for free.

lol but you feel entitled to the content as well because you paid 10 bucks more for it. You expect to get better content than us for 10 dollars?!//! entitled donkey

[Evilelf007]

I wish the Prothean was CE exclusive now... you guys don't want day one dlc, then screw it... don't even make it an option!

Do it Bioware!

[Blarty]

JakePT wrote...

I don't see how BioWare can say that players playing the game without the last surviving Prothean are getting the complete experience.

Simple.... If you want the complete experience, buy all the books and art books, games and all their DLC... This about being able to play the complete game to its best conclusion - this does not need the Prothean DLC


In all honesty, I see Arrival as far more important to the experience of Mass Effect 3 than an extra squadmate, Prothean or not is irrelevant.

[pilot2969]

PHub88 wrote...

There is a big difference between DLC that comes out a year later and day one DLC. Day one DLC is BS...and people support it...some people actually support a company that rips them off and then asks them politely to keep doing it.

My question is this. When does it become ridiculous?

You cannot be ripped off by day 1 DLC when it was announced months ago that there would be an additional character and mission in the Collectors Edition. It is not Bioware's fault that any given individual did not purchase the Collectors Edition and therefore now has to pay $10.00 for the DLC pack. You had as much opportunity to have it included in the game as anyone else did. 

[DifferentD17]

fropas wrote...

If no one was promised this content what's unethical about taking it out?

And I'm willing to pay for this content so why should Bioware give it to you for free?

Because they are taking it out just to make more money on it, when it should've been in there as the complete game, would taking Garrus out and charging for him be ethical? No. Did you read what I posted? I'm getting the CE I'm not getting anything for free. This is about how I don't like to be screwed over, and how I don't want to be in the future just because I don't want the CE of something.

[FlyingCow371]

Hey, so regarding the philosophy/ethics of this that seems to be a big concern for lots of people... what's really going on here? (Beware, way too many words follow. Partly wondering if the forum has word limits for posts, will find out soon.)
1. They made a collectors edition of the latest release in a series. Something that occurs with many series (halo, skyrim, and tons of others). In this collectors edition, there's some extra stuff that's not in the regular edition, as with most other collectors editions. Else there wouldn't be much reason for the increased price tag. I think that's fine. More content costing more money makes sufficient sense, to me at least.
2. I'll move on, assuming that we're all okay with the existence of a collectors edition of a product. Now, next we get to the type of content. What people put in their collectors edition is up to the game company. Sometimes it's a soundtrack, an art book, I think skyrim had a dragon or something...some include internet pictures/avatars/things like that; whatever the creators made that they feel might be appreciated by some of the more intense fans who'd want to spend more money to get a more extensive product.
3. I'm also going to continue, assuming again that we're okay with companies putting not just extra things into their collectors editions, but cool extra things to make them attractive. Now sometimes the extra stuff is really cool. Cool enough that somebody might want to buy a specific thing from the collectors edition, but might not want to spend the entire amount of extra money to actually buy the collectors edition. For instance, if one included a game/movie's soundtrack and a bunch of other stuff, but somebody just wanted the music, they'd like to be able to buy the soundtrack separately. And if there is sufficient demand, it would likely be available for purchase. That would be a good thing, right? For people to have access to what would be the only thing from a collectors edition they would want, but wasn't quite enough to justify the price jump between standard and special editions?
4. And now, bringing everything back to this situation. Mass Effect 3 has a collectors edition, in addition to a standard edition (see section 1). The collectors edition has some pretty cool extra stuff (see section 2), which in this case includes a bonus character. Now, rather than restricting this character completely to the collectors edition, which would have certainly been an option to make that edition more attractive, and increase its sales, they are releasing that bonus character, mission, and some extra costumes separately from the collectors edition, for a price that is less than the difference between standard and collectors editions (see section 3).

5. All these actions seem fine, unless you decide to assign cynical motives to everybody. Which is fine, you can view the world however you feels is best; but that doesn't mean you're right (now it also doesn't mean you're wrong). There could well be some dude at one of the companies involved having crazy, inappropriate, and likely ilegal-in-some-states fantasies about what he'd do with all the DLC money they'll be getting on launch. But that's not the only possibility, there could be some people over there who felt good about convincing the higher-ups to offer the character/mission that they built to everybody rather than locking it as a CE exclusive. My point is that there is insufficient evidence to say anything for sure about the motives involved in this release either way.

6. There's also not enough evidence to say much about the timing of the development of this character package. I don't know much about game development, but if the promises I've read about games like fable early on in their development compared to actual realease indicate anything...it's very possible that they had ideas about having this dude in early on, but due to time contstraints and prioritizing things they weren't able to finish him and make everything perfect in time for pre-release deadlines but did finish him up quickly to be ready for day 1 DLC. Hell, if you check out some of the stuff that the skyrim dudes did in a week after everything there was finished...game developers can do some cool stuff pretty fast if they can get/make the time for it. Or, he was all ready to go and that same crazy-illegal-fantasy dude from section 5 sliced him out just to sell him back later.

7. Basically there isn't a ton of value in super crazy speculation with so few facts. So, relax? It'll probably be a fun game, with or without this prothean guy. (Who, by the way, is just 1 dude. Who probably wasn't a big deal back 50,000 years ago when **** was going down with the protheans, else he likely would've been destroyed. The prothean race lore is still around regardless of this dude being a living example of it, and figuring out what happened back then and why the reapers cared about destroying them will likely be involved in the game. Having the prothean dude around makes it a bit more personal, I guess, with a revenge story and blah blah...but for me, and my Shepherd, it's already personal enough. The reapers killed some good people, and are attacking my home. They will be stopped. The protheans are more interesting as a super advanced race that was completely destroyed by the reapers, which would make it more epic if the less-advanced humans are able to (lead? contribute too? accidentally succeeed at?) something that the protheans failed to do.

But if you feel the game isn't worth playing if it doesn't include, for free, a half an hour mission back on eden prime and 3 conversations with a dude who should be dead/extinct, that were originally advertised as colectors edition bonuses, then yes go cancel your preorders since there is clearly nothing else worthwhile going on in the rest of the game, or the ME universe.

[T_l_M_B_0]

I hate seeing everyone shouting "herpaderp incomplete game blah blah whine whine".
ME3 is a complete game on its own. Not having Prothy will in no way hinder your ability to complete the game, or enjoy it. Prothy is something extra that, while being a cool squadmate, has no bearing on this game's plot. Probably just as much as Zaeed and Kasumi did on ME2. You don't like it? Don't buy it.

[Rockworm503]

Draconis6666 wrote...

DifferentD17 wrote...

Draconis6666 wrote...

Because its not Core content, its content you BELEVE is Core to your enjoyment of the game that is NOT the same thing, and not grounds for asking that it be given to you for free. It is only "CORE" content if the game would not functino without it

Then you could take out all side missions, and all other characters as well, the game would still function.

Yes you could, and everytime a game is made numerous side quests and characters are cut exactly as you say. With DLC some of those characters and sidequests are complteted later. Yes you could make a game that has no side quests and is just a single main quest and there are plenty of games like that linear adventure games with no sidequests and only a few key characters. What the developer actualy decides to give you is the core product and as long as it functions and works everything else that they may decide later to give you is optional. It is not your right to tell them "this product is not complete because it doesnt have A, B and C additional things that I think it should" you can deny them your money because you think it should have those things but you have no real right to demand they be included simply because you think it should and expect that to happen.

You're completely right.
I should throw my money at them and be happy they took it.
This goes both ways you know.   I don't get to make any demands of their game.  Neither do they get to make demands for my money.
But you see thats what their doing.
Their taking stuff out of the main game and saying 60 bucks isn't good enough anymore.

[Zu Long]

fatalmaverick wrote...

Defenders of Bioware, answer me this:

Why was the Prothean included as DLC? Why not just put him in the main game if he had already been planned in the first draft of the script? How else can you explain this but purposefully cut and pasting content from the game in order to monetize it later? If he wasn't so important, as you say, then why not just throw him in? You don't see 'non important' garbage can DLC. Sure, they look cool, they aren't important to the plot, why not pay 10 dollars for that? They knew the prothean would cause uproar, and that people would want the heck out of it, so they witheld it for a profit. Extortion.

Because when they plotted out the missions and characters for game they originally thought they would be shipping in November 2011 and as a result parts of the game had to be cut. After much consideration, they chose the Prothean, among other parts, as something that just wasn't necessary to the main story. While still in production they realized that they would have to push back the date anyway, and that the new schedule would allow them time to have DLC available on day one. So they began planning for it, announcing it as part of the collectors edition in july after they had set their date on 3/6, intending to keep it as a secret surprise. Someone goofed and it was listed in the original post on the CE. Knowing that the character was now going to be in the game, they went ahead and recorded dialogue for him, which was fairly easy since he had been in the original script.

Later, after working many hours even after the completion of the rest of the game in order to have the Prothean character ready on day one, a group of their fans complained relentlessly that they weren't getting the game for free.

That seems to fit the timeline as we know it AND what we were told by Casey and Mike.

[Evilelf007]

fatalmaverick wrote...

Evilelf007 wrote...

What, is this turning into "Occupy Bioware"? Everyone feels entitled to something they think is cool, and want it in the cheaper price bracket.

Too many entitled people in this world. Fewer and fewer people are willing to work for what they want, they expect it to be given to them.

Everyone saw the packaging advertising, everyone knew the CE was getting cool in game dlc on day one... NOW those not getting the CE are upset about it and want it for free.

lol but you feel entitled to the content as well because you paid 10 bucks more for it. You expect to get better content than us for 10 dollars?!//! entitled donkey

Not entitled at all.  I saw they advertised more content for the CE, and I knew I'd want the content so I did as they asked and spent the extra cash.  That's not entitlement, that is simple consumerism.

Entitlement is wanting something for nothing.

[Nima55]

Evilelf007 wrote...

Draconis6666 wrote...

brfritos wrote...


^^So much this.

We even fight genetic modified Protheans for the entire ME2 and people say the character don't have an importance in the game's lore?

I dont think anyone (or if so very few people) have claimed that protheans are not important to the game's lore, but the lore is not the plot. They are no tthe same thing and should not be analized as such, Importance to Lore is a secondary issue in asside to the importance to the plot. Simply because you like lore, and if you do thats fine, I do too, that does not mean that the character is needed for the game. Only that your gaming experience might be enhanced by having him. Had he never existed at all howeve rthe game would likely play out largely the same and with little difference unless he is a key plot character which he clearly is not, or the game would not be completable without him. You have not been deprived of anything, you have been given a chance to spend more money if you chose to, for the possiblity of enhancing your personal enjoyment of the game. Thats your decision to decide if it is worth it to you or not.

You do not have the right to demand its inclusion for free because you believe that it would enhance your enjoyment , which is what many people seem to believe.

THIS!  If the Prothean made an appearance in the first or the 2nd game, it would seem to be something that could be more plot worthy... as the Protheans helped warn of the reapers etc.  That stuff is pretty irrelevant now that the entire Galaxy is under seige.  Not much plot-wise a single Prothean can add to an all out galactic war, when the story is about uniting the species to fight the Reapers as one.

The character is plain and simply a cool feel good fanboy character to have along.  Not vital to the plot at all at this point.

THIS INDEED SO MUCH THIS. guys pls calm down already. I am tried of this stuff poluting the forum. The game hasn't come out yet. we have no idea how important or unimportant prothy may be. if he is a game changer then you are free to complain. until then pls for the good of all of us, stop.

Modifié par Nima55, 23 février 2012 - 07:17 .

[Techo Angel]

RaenImrahl wrote...

Blarty wrote...

... a 50000 year old Prothean version of Philip J Fry.

This is imagery I can appreciate. Makes me hope Shep finds Prothy in a big metal tube holding a pizza and a can of beer.

That why people love a game they can Mod after its out... making crazy sights like that people wish to see...
Which sadily ME3 will not be...

Then again... There is always Photoshop...

[fropas]

DifferentD17 wrote...

fropas wrote...

If no one was promised this content what's unethical about taking it out?

And I'm willing to pay for this content so why should Bioware give it to you for free?

Because they are taking it out just to make more money on it, when it should've been in there as the complete game, would taking Garrus out and charging for him be ethical? No. Did you read what I posted? I'm getting the CE I'm not getting anything for free. This is about how I don't like to be screwed over, and how I don't want to be in the future just because I don't want the CE of something.

Well you could always let Bioware hear your disapproval by not buying the game. . .but that doesn't mean they won't screw you in the future.

[Kasces]

fatalmaverick wrote...

fatalmaverick wrote...

Defenders of Bioware, answer me this:

Why was the Prothean included as DLC? Why not just put him in the main game if he had already been planned in the first draft of the script? How else can you explain this but purposefully cut and pasting content from the game in order to monetize it later? If he wasn't so important, as you say, then why not just throw him in? You don't see 'non important' garbage can DLC. Sure, they look cool, they aren't important to the plot, why not pay 10 dollars for that? They knew the prothean would cause uproar, and that people would want the heck out of it, so they witheld it for a profit. Extortion.

From what I have gathered:

You sort of answered your own question. They decided to go with a plot that didn't require the almost ridiculous notion that a member of an almost mythical race not only survived but is combat ready as a squadmate for 50,000 years (don't people already rage about how Bioware relies on the rule of cool? For exmaple, squad attire in ME2.)
 
So they had the cool idea that a Prothean is 100x more DLC worthy than some merc a la Zaeed, especially for the last of the trilogy. What ME fan wouldn't want the freaking Prothean? ( Makes sense. He's been planned as DLC since the first "leak" about him but whatever). They were going to make him CE edition exclusive (Not so much sense imo). Decided to make him just a bonus in general because the idea that all who preordered the CE are long time, hardcore Mass Effect fans isn't always true.

Modifié par Kasces, 23 février 2012 - 07:22 .

[f1r3storm]

GuyIncognito21 wrote...

Well, the fact that I don't believe Casey, for one.  Was there any chance at all of him saying anything other than what he said? 

I don't know, i'm not an insider. It's hard to proof, so how could he?

And I don't think I'm asking for it for free.  I'm paying $60 for what I thought was the full game, and now he thinks I should have to pay $70 if I want the full game.

But you're paying for the full game in the state it was when it was content complete. Since the DLC was developed afterwards, he isn't part of the full game then.

And additional development costs money, voice actors cost money.

Besides that, if you wanted the "full game", you would have had to pre-order the CE since they mentioned a bonus character and mission right from the beginning.

[GuyIncognito21]

Evilelf007 wrote...

What, is this turning into "Occupy Bioware"? Everyone feels entitled to something they think is cool, and want it in the cheaper price bracket.

Too many entitled people in this world. Fewer and fewer people are willing to work for what they want, they expect it to be given to them.

Everyone saw the packaging advertising, everyone knew the CE was getting cool in game dlc on day one... NOW those not getting the CE are upset about it and want it for free.

Well the funny thing about digital media in our current age is that it can be had for free relatively easily.  The fact that people pay for things like movies, music, and games should be interpreted more as a sign of their support than their desire to enjoy your media.

If people feel "entitled" to something like a computer game, they can have it.  That's a luxury that consumers in most markets do not enjoy, and it's one that companies would be wise to acknowledge rather than dismiss.

But for the principles of the individual consumers, there can't even exist a digital gaming industry anymore.  Companies would therefore do well not to put the principles of their customers into conflict with each other.

[fatalmaverick]

pilot2969 wrote...

PHub88 wrote...

There is a big difference between DLC that comes out a year later and day one DLC. Day one DLC is BS...and people support it...some people actually support a company that rips them off and then asks them politely to keep doing it.

My question is this. When does it become ridiculous?

You cannot be ripped off by day 1 DLC when it was announced months ago that there would be an additional character and mission in the Collectors Edition. It is not Bioware's fault that any given individual did not purchase the Collectors Edition and therefore now has to pay $10.00 for the DLC pack. You had as much opportunity to have it included in the game as anyone else did. 

Ah, so if they announced half the game would be released as DLC, but they announed this 3 months prior to release, it would be acceptable?

[AxisEvolve]

Yuoaman wrote...

AxisEvolve wrote...

But....

IS he the last surviving Prothean?

I DUNNO.

Probably.

"Are all the Protheans dead?"

"I dunno. Probably. " 

Modifié par AxisEvolve, 23 février 2012 - 07:19 .

[Wuggins]

 No, this does not make 1st day DLC any way more acceptable. Regardless how long you've advertised it, or how long after the game was "finished" it was made, it is still unethical business practice as you are still releasing an incomplete game. Even if it was made by a separate team, it is still part of the game and since it was made before release, it should be part of the full 60 dollar game.

This is merely a blatant attempt to monetize in any way you can from the success of the series, and while business is always after profit, it is simply unethical to do so in the expense of paying customers.

[RiouHotaru]

[quote]GuyIncognito21 wrote...

And as Casey said, they developed the DLC when the main game was content complete. [/quote]


That's begging the question!  The only way you accept that the game was "content complete" when they added the prothean is if you accept that the prothean was not "content!"

And I don't think I'm asking for it for free.  I'm paying $60 for what I thought was the full game, and now he thinks I should have to pay $70 if I want the full game.
[/quote]

But the Prothean isn't core content, he's bonus material, an optional prize.  The game minus the Prothean is a complete package.  His absence from it in no way diminishes the experience.  His presence is supposed to ENHANCE the already existing, complete experience.

[HiroVoid]

To anyone wondering, I honestly doubt it's an issue of money to most people as much as it's a matter of principle.

[CitizenSnips]

This is very, very simple.

The developer is selling a product for what they believe it is worth. If you do not like it, you do not have to buy it. You are entitled to your opinion but you are not entitled to this product.