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A Rallying Cry for Drellguards - Do NOT Settle for Mediocrity!


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#1
Berkilak

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**DISCLAIMER**  - The following post details problems the class has on Gold difficulty. It is fine, even superior, to a lot of picks on Bronze/Silver. I'm not interested in how badly you destroyed or soloed those difficulities because the class is fine therein (admittedly like any other class).

 Like many of you out there, the drell Vanguard was (and is) my most looked-forward to class/species combination for Mass Effect 3 multiplayer. I was lucky enough to have unlocked it with my very first Veteran pack at level 4 or so, and I didn't look back until level 20 when I started Gold runs.

Something seemed... off. Yes, I absolutely decimated on Bronze and Silver. There was nothing quite like showing those Centurions and Nemeses my kung fu power, zipping from target to target. Regardless of whatever else I say, we are still the most stylish class, particularly with the drell melee moves. In the latter waves of Silver, and thoughout Gold, however.. I noted that we simply do not synergize well.


Charge - the quintessential Vanguard move. It defines everything we are capable of. There is nothing quite as satifying as flying into a shielded enemy, following up with a Biotic Falcon Punch into their staggered bodies, and kicking whatever life is remaining out of them. Unfortunately, all we have going for our role as a Vanguard (ie. a melee-range disruptor) is that awesome melee in combination with Charge. (That tracking on the second melee hit is also a God-send with a mobile opponent)

Pull - Here's where things start to fall apart for the class, mechanically. Yes, you can set up your own Biotic Explosions, but you are usually wasting a cooldown that could have been used filling your (meagre) shield if you're in melee range, and if you're at range, there's probably a reason for that in the first place, and you wouldn't want to head into melee. Yes, you can set up a decent initiation, but human Vanguards simply fill that AoE better, with little risk to themselves due to the lack of spending their Charge cooldown. Likewise, Adepts can safely chain Biotic Explosions from range with no risk to themselves. Also, dealing with Guardians? Having anyone with a Sniper rifle on your team makes that a moot point.

Cluster Grenade - Stylish? Yes. Powerful? Of course. Liability? Unfortunately. Firstly, on higher difficulties, anything with limited use is almost a wasted slot, particularly when you can't be zipping from box to box. You're either saving them for a situation that never presents itself, or you're using them when such a situation does and finding yourself with a useless slot. Likewise, aside from some Pull synergy (ie. ranged synergy, that doesn't meld with Charge at all), they do not match the Vanguard concept. They're a poor man's limited and less-predictable version of Nova's AoE when you're trying to fill the Vanguard role. Yes, I'm sure you're great with them, that you know exactly how they're going to bounce, but that doesn't change the fact that they do not synergize at all with your primary role, particularly when something else could do much better.


In short, drellguards are walking contradictions - they are melee specialists (given Charge and the species' melee) with supporting abilities that focus on ranged combat. As a result, they excel at nothing at all. They're either a squishy single-target Vanguard, when you could have a human in there with better durability and AoE power, or a less powerful, less-controlled Adept, having to get into melee range to trigger their explosions, and only able to concentrate on a single target at a time.

Yes, I'm sure you are a stellar example of a drell Vanguard. I've seen many perform admirably. But that isn't the point that is being made here. I'm saying that if we had a more defined role (or the ability to more clearly define the half-roles we've been given), we drellguards could be doing even better than we currently are. As is, we're simply making the best of what we've been given, and more stylishly than anyone else at that. But that doesn't change the fact that anything we can do, someone else does it better, mechanically.

Do not settle for mediocrity, even if you can make the mediocre look great.

Modifié par Berkilak, 28 février 2012 - 05:28 .


#2
Butthead11

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Can drell vanguards still handle phantoms easily? If so i think the main thing vanguards are needed for is still in tact.

#3
Berkilak

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Butthead11 wrote...

Can drell vanguards still handle phantoms easily? If so i think the main thing vanguards are needed for is still in tact.

Not as safely as their human counterparts.

#4
MELTOR13

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Meh. Give it some time.

When ME2 came out, the general cry from everyone was that the Vanguard sucked, and Charge was a horrible power. Remember that? How'd that work out?

We just haven't figured it out yet. New mechanics, new powers, new combos, etc. Give the community some time before crying 'patch!'

#5
Berkilak

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Likewise, as stated in other posts, the only difference between a drell Vanguard and Adept is Charge/Reave. And if Reave is anything like its ME2 counterpart, it would essentially given the drell added durability without having to go into range, more-reliable AoE damage, the ability to stun groups of enemies and follow up with AoE damage, and potentially the ability to trigger Biotic Explosions from range.

That would give the drell Adept a clearly defined role. Something we currently do not have, given that our abilities do not suit our role.

Modifié par Berkilak, 23 février 2012 - 03:52 .


#6
-Severian-

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The Drell vanguard can still handle Phantoms the same way as any other Vanguard - Charge, heavy melee, backflip to dodge it's counter-attack and a second charge will take them out even on gold without issue. Sadly, the issue the otherwise fantastic drell has is his lack of defenses - if that Phantom has some of it's gun-toting buddies with it, then that Phantom will be the last thing you're killing that round.

#7
Berkilak

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Likewise, asari Vanguards are going to have Stasis. Making drell even moreso the odd duck of the class.

#8
Butthead11

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Berkilak wrote...

Likewise, asari Vanguards are going to have Stasis. Making drell even moreso the odd duck of the class.


Well atleast humans will be mediocre with you. 

#9
Berkilak

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Butthead11 wrote...

Berkilak wrote...

Likewise, asari Vanguards are going to have Stasis. Making drell even moreso the odd duck of the class.


Well atleast humans will be mediocre with you. 

Not in the slightest. They synergize well. Very well.

#10
Butthead11

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Berkilak wrote...

Butthead11 wrote...

Berkilak wrote...

Likewise, asari Vanguards are going to have Stasis. Making drell even moreso the odd duck of the class.


Well atleast humans will be mediocre with you. 

Not in the slightest. They synergize well. Very well.


People are still gonna want Asari over human vanguards. Stasis>Nova for team play. 

#11
Berkilak

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Butthead11 wrote...

People are still gonna want Asari over human vanguards. Stasis>Nova for team play. 

Doesn't matter what other people want. All that matters is that your class has abilities that allow you to perform its role to the utmost. Stasis + Multi-target Charge = Multiple Biotic Explosions. It's going to be quite fun.

#12
Adragalus

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Butthead11 wrote...

Can drell vanguards still handle phantoms easily? If so i think the main thing vanguards are needed for is still in tact.

Oooooh yes they can :devil:

My build is max Charge (full barrier restore) full Pull, full class passive, and full Fitness (melee and recharge specced).

I igonored Cluster Grenade due to the limit, and Area Pull with a CD of <1 sec is basically just an excellent Chargebomb setup or panic yoink against a swarm of enemies. Yeah, sniper can shoot guardians, but (speaking with my main as an Infiltrator) it can be a PAIN to hit that when they're walking around and being staggered. Just pull and roll, your Pull CD will be done when you finish.

#13
FishbowlSoul9

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I agree. I've worked so hard on my drell guard. I like to think I'm pretty good with the class as it is. However, I just can't compete in gold. A human vanguard can just trample over what I've worked so hard to be at with significantly less skill involved (not a slight to human vanguards, I just don't see many vanguards using more than charge nova nova charge spam), and that doesn't seem right. This class needs work. I like the idea of a fragile speedster, zipping around the battlefield, taking out key targets and running, but he just can't fill that role right now, not with his current kit.

Please, Bioware, give the drellguard a revamp. He could really use it.

#14
Butthead11

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Berkilak wrote...

Butthead11 wrote...

People are still gonna want Asari over human vanguards. Stasis>Nova for team play. 

Doesn't matter what other people want. All that matters is that your class has abilities that allow you to perform its role to the utmost. Stasis + Multi-target Charge = Multiple Biotic Explosions. It's going to be quite fun.


But a human vanguard won't be able to preform it's role to the utmost, 2 asari vanguards could do the multiple biotic explosion combo with even greater results, and have greater utility for the things vanguards are actually useful for that most other classes can't do as well(any class can handle legions of grunts).. Vanguards are primarily for dealing with phantoms,battle field mobility, and assasination objectives. Stasis is extremley excellent for phantoms and assasination objectives. The asari vanguard will have far more utility in groups and if you play in a serious gold group they will most likley want you to play as one rather than the human. 

2 stasis bubbles are better than 1.

#15
Adragalus

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Berkilak wrote...

Butthead11 wrote...

People are still gonna want Asari over human vanguards. Stasis>Nova for team play. 

Doesn't matter what other people want. All that matters is that your class has abilities that allow you to perform its role to the utmost. Stasis + Multi-target Charge = Multiple Biotic Explosions. It's going to be quite fun.

Honestly, I think Statis + Heavy Charge would be better. Utterly kill that one, and then leave the others still frozen for cooldown scumming with melee, or Area Pull in preparation for another Chargebomb.

#16
Berkilak

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Adragalus wrote...

Berkilak wrote...

Butthead11 wrote...

People are still gonna want Asari over human vanguards. Stasis>Nova for team play. 

Doesn't matter what other people want. All that matters is that your class has abilities that allow you to perform its role to the utmost. Stasis + Multi-target Charge = Multiple Biotic Explosions. It's going to be quite fun.

Honestly, I think Statis + Heavy Charge would be better. Utterly kill that one, and then leave the others still frozen for cooldown scumming with melee, or Area Pull in preparation for another Chargebomb.

We'll just wait to wait for release to see. Methinks three biotic explosions would do more than enough damage to finish off anyone in the AoE.

#17
Adragalus

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Berkilak wrote...

Adragalus wrote...

Berkilak wrote...

Butthead11 wrote...

People are still gonna want Asari over human vanguards. Stasis>Nova for team play. 

Doesn't matter what other people want. All that matters is that your class has abilities that allow you to perform its role to the utmost. Stasis + Multi-target Charge = Multiple Biotic Explosions. It's going to be quite fun.

Honestly, I think Statis + Heavy Charge would be better. Utterly kill that one, and then leave the others still frozen for cooldown scumming with melee, or Area Pull in preparation for another Chargebomb.

We'll just wait to wait for release to see. Methinks three biotic explosions would do more than enough damage to finish off anyone in the AoE.

Wait, nevermind. I was still in Drellguard analysis mode. Asari heavy melee is really slow, as opposed to the standard Vanguard Falconpunch. So yeah, I'd go with Area Charge too.

Modifié par Adragalus, 23 février 2012 - 05:04 .


#18
Sailears

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Come on, it's not that bad.

I only feel it lacks two things:
1. Low barrier,
2. Lack of dependable direct damage ranged power.

1 is solved by upping their barrier strength a bit for more survivability.

2: Sure if you ignore charge and focus in pull and cluster grenade, and a sniper rifle or something, you can have a workable ranged build.
But cluster grenade doesn't really go with charge, so I'd rather replace it with warp, throw or even reave (depending on how reave turns out).
That way you can detonate your pulls at long range (reliably), or up close with charge.

#19
Berkilak

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Curunen wrote...

Come on, it's not that bad.

I only feel it lacks two things:
1. Low barrier,
2. Lack of dependable direct damage ranged power.

1 is solved by upping their barrier strength a bit for more survivability.

2: Sure if you ignore charge and focus in pull and cluster grenade, and a sniper rifle or something, you can have a workable ranged build.
But cluster grenade doesn't really go with charge, so I'd rather replace it with warp, throw or even reave (depending on how reave turns out).
That way you can detonate your pulls at long range (reliably), or up close with charge.


Personally, I'd replace Pull with Reave. Granted, I'm not a fan of Grenades, but they are iconically drell. Reave would remain a viable ranged attack that could be used at close range as well - it disables organics in an area, as well as providing us with much-needed durability. Assuming its implementation is similar to ME2.

#20
Sailears

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Hmm it would work, but I'm too fond of pull to let it go.

#21
Miroslav_s46

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Just got gold yesterday on my 3rd run with the drell vanguard, I was level 18, now, It's tricky to use but I found it very rewarding.

Charge is fully spec'ed for extra power(25% of free cooldown) pull is full too with biotic explosion bonus, also radius, charge has radius too, I have full fitness with all bonus to melee damage (95%) the rest is a cluster at 3 and the rest for drell assassin.

I only equip one gun, which I don't use all that much, usually the predator VII (200% cooldown bonus) or the phalanx III (184% or something like that).

I used pull on a trooper, if it grabbed more than one, then the charge would detonate more explosions, the free charge always came handy for retreating purposes, and a Pistol barrage + Pull/Charge/Heavy Melee takes care of almost every enemy, phantoms are dealts easily if they are in front of you and don't surprise you.

I found the Drell to be extremely effective of taking care of single enemies quick and then retreating with all the attention, I mostly killed enginners, then ran the hell out of there.

Don't let anyone fool you, It's difficult to nail down, but once you get used to gold, you become more wary of when to do what. Oh, and a balanced team helps A LOT, we cleared gold with: Drell Vanguard, Turian Sentinel, Human Infiltrator, Human Adept.

#22
TexasToast712

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I do not share your pain because the thought of a sneaky ninja race being placed in a "in your face with a shotgun" style class annoys me greatly.

Drell should be infiltrators.

#23
Sailears

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Miroslav_s46 wrote...

Just got gold yesterday on my 3rd run with the drell vanguard, I was level 18, now, It's tricky to use but I found it very rewarding.

Charge is fully spec'ed for extra power(25% of free cooldown) pull is full too with biotic explosion bonus, also radius, charge has radius too, I have full fitness with all bonus to melee damage (95%) the rest is a cluster at 3 and the rest for drell assassin.

<snip>.

Interesting. Do you intentionally set up a kill with heavy melee to get the ball rolling for increased damage, before plowing into the rest?

Is the 30 seconds is long enough to make the most of the 75% melee boost (similarly with rank 6 bonuses)?

How do you manage the lack of durability if you've focused completely on melee bonuses?

#24
bucyrus5000

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Basically the Drell needs to be charging with evey free cooldown. If BW is not going to aid the Drell with a bit more health and barriers, then there is something else that can be done. Give Drell-guards an extra armor equip slot.

#25
Miroslav_s46

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Curunen wrote...

Miroslav_s46 wrote...

Just got gold yesterday on my 3rd run with the drell vanguard, I was level 18, now, It's tricky to use but I found it very rewarding.

Charge is fully spec'ed for extra power(25% of free cooldown) pull is full too with biotic explosion bonus, also radius, charge has radius too, I have full fitness with all bonus to melee damage (95%) the rest is a cluster at 3 and the rest for drell assassin.

<snip>.

Interesting. Do you intentionally set up a kill with heavy melee to get the ball rolling for increased damage, before plowing into the rest?

Is the 30 seconds is long enough to make the most of the 75% melee boost (similarly with rank 6 bonuses)?

How do you manage the lack of durability if you've focused completely on melee bonuses?


That's the point, There is no durability, the class isn't made to withstand even an inch of damage, going upgrading barriers and health does little to nothing in gold, the point is charging whenever you can and being aware of your next move, for example, there is a big group of troopers ---> pull ----> charge = explosion, hide, then finish them off with the pistol from cover, same for centurions and nemesis.

I forgot to point that I don't necessarily do a melee after charge, in fact I go straight to a safe cover if charge isn't ready, charge's power bonus lasts a good amount of time more than the weapon bonus, that way pull or charge will have extra kick next time, If you isolate a single guy you can kick off the melee bonus, guardians are in fact really good at dying from melee, as you pull then heavy melee, I also discovered that turrets die easily IF they aren't aiming at you, same for engies.

But at the end of the day, you have to be realy careful, I was downed a lot of times before I figured the class, and I still get owned from time to time, mostly by atlases or groups of phantoms, no class is perfect (well the asari is little bit broken) but anyways, I found the class really enjoyable, can't wait to see what rave does :police: