123 réponses à ce sujet

[Sailears]

^Ah cheers, nice bit of insight there.

I was just playing and ran into a charge bug (charge stopped working) and barrier recharge bug (barriers would never recharge), which for the drell vanguard is... problematic to say the least.

Thankfully it was bronze and I lost connection from the match, but still. :/

[aruguren]

drellguard is challenging, if you play with human vanguard and get bored, drellguard is it

[Berkilak]

Miroslav_s46 wrote...

Just got gold yesterday on my 3rd run with the drell vanguard, I was level 18, now, It's tricky to use but I found it very rewarding.

Charge is fully spec'ed for extra power(25% of free cooldown) pull is full too with biotic explosion bonus, also radius, charge has radius too, I have full fitness with all bonus to melee damage (95%) the rest is a cluster at 3 and the rest for drell assassin.

I only equip one gun, which I don't use all that much, usually the predator VII (200% cooldown bonus) or the phalanx III (184% or something like that).

I used pull on a trooper, if it grabbed more than one, then the charge would detonate more explosions, the free charge always came handy for retreating purposes, and a Pistol barrage + Pull/Charge/Heavy Melee takes care of almost every enemy, phantoms are dealts easily if they are in front of you and don't surprise you.

I found the Drell to be extremely effective of taking care of single enemies quick and then retreating with all the attention, I mostly killed enginners, then ran the hell out of there.

Don't let anyone fool you, It's difficult to nail down, but once you get used to gold, you become more wary of when to do what. Oh, and a balanced team helps A LOT, we cleared gold with: Drell Vanguard, Turian Sentinel, Human Infiltrator, Human Adept.

You've nailed the playstyle pretty well. But that isn't the point that's being made here - what I'm trying to convey is that classes that are similar to us are able to perform the role described with less risk to themselves and with less effort - usually with less time spent on the task at hand, as well.

[Berkilak]

Curunen wrote...

^Ah cheers, nice bit of insight there.

I was just playing and ran into a charge bug (charge stopped working) and barrier recharge bug (barriers would never recharge), which for the drell vanguard is... problematic to say the least.

Thankfully it was bronze and I lost connection from the match, but still. :/

That sounds more like lag than an actual bug.

[Berkilak]

aruguren wrote...

drellguard is challenging, if you play with human vanguard and get bored, drellguard is it

I'll agree that drellguard is more challenging, but not because of the class design, inherently - it is so because we are lacking in numbers than the humans have in spades.

[Wizardmanguy]

Every time I read one of these forums I wish I could watch you play so I could help you out.

I very rarely have any problems with any enemies, consistently taking out phantoms and Atlas' on silver and gold with no supervision. I just wonder what the ratio of people shooting/powering is like. Yeah you have powers, but have you tried accurate gunfire? Every vanguard I see play (Human or Drell) tend to lean toward spamming powers and then crying that they get downed or whatever.

Drellguard is not any more challenging than any other class to master. I think the main problem comes with the mentality of the players using the character.

[Berkilak]

Wizardmanguy wrote...

Every time I read one of these forums I wish I could watch you play so I could help you out.

I very rarely have any problems with any enemies, consistently taking out phantoms and Atlas' on silver and gold with no supervision. I just wonder what the ratio of people shooting/powering is like. Yeah you have powers, but have you tried accurate gunfire? Every vanguard I see play (Human or Drell) tend to lean toward spamming powers and then crying that they get downed or whatever.

Drellguard is not any more challenging than any other class to master. I think the main problem comes with the mentality of the players using the character.

Again, no one is saying that the class is unplayable or whatever. Read what is being said instead of assuming. What I am stating is that (although the class is indeed playable, capable of performing well in Gold, etc.) relative to virtually every other species/class combination, the drell Vanguard does not have a clearly defined role. The supporting abilities work contrary to the primary ability of the class, provide absolutely no synergy, and actively discourage one from performing the primary role of a Vanguard (not saying that it cannot be done, but it can be done much more safely and efficiently as a human, and probably asari given that they'll have Stasis, as well).

It's not that the drellguard is unplayable, or even underpowered. It's that its abilities do not compliment the role of the Vanguard in the slightest, making it a poorer choice if you're looking for someone to play as that melee-range disruptor.

[Arppis]

TexasToast712 wrote...

I do not share your pain because the thought of a sneaky ninja race being placed in a "in your face with a shotgun" style class annoys me greatly.

Drell should be infiltrators.

They seem to be pretty good using biotics thou.

[Wizardmanguy]

Berkilak wrote...

Wizardmanguy wrote...

Every time I read one of these forums I wish I could watch you play so I could help you out.

I very rarely have any problems with any enemies, consistently taking out phantoms and Atlas' on silver and gold with no supervision. I just wonder what the ratio of people shooting/powering is like. Yeah you have powers, but have you tried accurate gunfire? Every vanguard I see play (Human or Drell) tend to lean toward spamming powers and then crying that they get downed or whatever.

Drellguard is not any more challenging than any other class to master. I think the main problem comes with the mentality of the players using the character.

Again, no one is saying that the class is unplayable or whatever. Read what is being said instead of assuming. What I am stating is that (although the class is indeed playable, capable of performing well in Gold, etc.) relative to virtually every other species/class combination, the drell Vanguard does not have a clearly defined role. The supporting abilities work contrary to the primary ability of the class, provide absolutely no synergy, and actively discourage one from performing the primary role of a Vanguard (not saying that it cannot be done, but it can be done much more safely and efficiently as a human, and probably asari given that they'll have Stasis, as well).

It's not that the drellguard is unplayable, or even underpowered. It's that its abilities do not compliment the role of the Vanguard in the slightest, making it a poorer choice if you're looking for someone to play as that melee-range disruptor.

I don't quite take well to people telling me I don't read. I've read your posts multiple times. Please refrain from the knee-jerk reaction of assuming a person in a conversation is ignorant of your meanings. Just because I disagree with you does not mean I don't "Get you." 

It's skills compliment a vanguard.(in my opinion.) Not the way you're used to seeing, or even how they've adjusted the Vanguard for ME3. I'm sorry you don't see it that way, but the great thing is that you don't have to play it. 

[Berkilak]

Wizardmanguy wrote...

I don't quite take well to people telling me I don't read. I've read your posts multiple times. Please refrain from the knee-jerk reaction of assuming a person in a conversation is ignorant of your meanings. Just because I disagree with you does not mean I don't "Get you." 

It's skills compliment a vanguard.(in my opinion.) Not the way you're used to seeing, or even how they've adjusted the Vanguard for ME3. I'm sorry you don't see it that way, but the great thing is that you don't have to play it. 

If you're implying that I think that the class is underpowered or that I'm unable to be successful with it on Silver/Gold or what have you, you better believe I'm going to assume that you missed the point of the stated issue. You state that the skills compliment the Vanguard's role. Elaborate. Give me something to work with instead of "I'm so great at this class and everyone needs to learn from my elite stylings."

Modifié par Berkilak, 25 février 2012 - 01:57 .

[Hyrist]

As I have stated previously in this thread.

Berkilak has no inclination to be convinced at all as to the errors of his logic. This is effectively a troll thread, with the OP constantly watching it to address each an every counter-argument with a "It's not as good as " statement.

A Drellguard does not play like a traditional Vanguard. It has different roles and functions and it does them very well. It is closer to a disabeler than a disruptor: Good at taking out single targets and crowd controlling other controlling others.

There is nothing wrong with this role or Drellguard's functions within it, and when people have the ability to Respec their Drellguards beyond their best 'first guess' they'll realize there are some pretty powerful builds to be had.

However, if your argument is "I want to play a drell that's exactly like a Human Vanguard." Then stop playing a Drellguard and play a human Vanguard.

Do not ruin unique playstyles and builds because you as a person do not play well with it.

[No Snakes Alive]

I didn't read every single post so I'm sorry if this was touched upon, but the synergy of the Drellguard's powers is not the problem here. The Drellguard's abysmal shields is the problem. And if you spec'd into melee in Fitness not realizing he'd be so weak, good luck to you. It's such a shame that you can't even peek out of cover without losing your entire barrier on a class that has the ability to literally charge headfirst into combat.

Modifié par No Snakes Alive, 25 février 2012 - 02:43 .

[Berkilak]

Hyrist wrote...

As I have stated previously in this thread.

Berkilak has no inclination to be convinced at all as to the errors of his logic. This is effectively a troll thread, with the OP constantly watching it to address each an every counter-argument with a "It's not as good as " statement.

A Drellguard does not play like a traditional Vanguard. It has different roles and functions and it does them very well. It is closer to a disabeler than a disruptor: Good at taking out single targets and crowd controlling other controlling others.

There is nothing wrong with this role or Drellguard's functions within it, and when people have the ability to Respec their Drellguards beyond their best 'first guess' they'll realize there are some pretty powerful builds to be had.

However, if your argument is "I want to play a drell that's exactly like a Human Vanguard." Then stop playing a Drellguard and play a human Vanguard.

Do not ruin unique playstyles and builds because you as a person do not play well with it.

I won't be drawn into a petty, personal fight as you would have me do. Just tell me, in a sweet, succinct manner,
- (1) what is the role of the drell Vanguard?
- (2) What makes it unique relative to other ranged disablers? And
- (3) what does Charge bring to the table when our Adept counterpart will be given Reave to further implement that ranged disabler playstyle that you enjoy? Lastly,
- (4) what makes a drell Vanguard, a Vanguard?

People keep alluding to this unique playstyle with unique roles, but no one has detailed them in the slightest. Please, enlighten me.

Modifié par Berkilak, 25 février 2012 - 02:56 .

[Hyrist]

 - (1) what is the role of the drell Vanguard? 

Multiple, depending mostly on the situation. But if you want a general aspect of it. It is a field assassin, just as described in it's race creation. It has high mobility to both enter, and leave situations.

- (2) What makes it unique relative to other ranged disablers? And

The Differences:

Biotics - which differentiates itself from Tech Disablers.
Pull - Which differentiates itself from most Adepts in that it is effective against guardians and faster spamming than singularity.
All Range - In spite of people's complaints otherwise, Drell are capable in short range, but they are capable in the manner an infiltrator is: Get in there, kill your high-priority target, and gtfo. 

- (3) what does Charge bring to the table when our Adept counterpart will be given Reave to further implement that ranged disabler playstyle that you enjoy? Lastly, 

Firstly - All Range. Not just one ranged.

1 - Repositioning: This is most important for a Drellguard, more important than any other Vanguard actually. Drellguard excells as the Biotic Equivilant of hybrid Infiltrator.

2 - Melee/Shotgun: It should be noted here that with Pistol Weight reduction specifically for Drell Assassins, it allows for a powerful ranged weapon at minimal sacrafice of cooldowns. This paired with a lightweight shotgun enhances the disablement ability.


- (4) what makes a drell Vanguard, a Vanguard?


What made a Vanguard in ME1 a Vanguard? It's not up to you to decide what is and is not worthy of the term "Vanguard" in ME, it's the designer's choice.

But if we're going to break down of what qualities that make a Drellguard a Vanguard?

Biotics
Disruptive to enemy.
High Risk/Reward class.
Melee benefits (as native to Drell.)



As a side note, I truely beleive people underestimate the Cluster Genrades in this light because of their ammo-limited nature. They really help a Drellguard do what they're meant to do, though not spammable. Use them in clustered groups of higher-resistant targets as part of your disabele.

I think peoples issue with Drellguard is that it's not a tank. But rahter an Assassin. "But it dosen't work as well as" is not a valid excuse when the entire playstyle is different. Asari and Human Vanguards are not hit and run. They're hit and tank styles. Drell fits that biotic disabler/assassin that Infiltrator lacks due to no biotics, and Drell Adepts can't due to limited front line utilities.

Drell is an assassin type, as described. This is why Adepts and Vanguards play similary. But unlike Infiltrator, who can do both CQC and Ranged in one package, it had to be devided here with Biotics.

The role is surrounded around the race, rather than the class in this case.

[No Snakes Alive]

The "melee benefits" of the Drell class and the entire melee evolution path of the Fitness skill are utterly wasted on a class with shields made of tissue paper. The class can be played effectively, sure. And using Charge to finish off with your own self-made Biotic explosions is nice, but the class is easily far and away one of the least effective in the demo. The possibilities the class could have brought to the table are ruined by a strange decision to make it the squishiest class around. Why a Drell Vanguard would make my Quarian Engineer seem like a Krogan Sentinel when it comes to being able to take a few stray bullets is beyond me.

[Wizardmanguy]

Berkilak wrote...

Wizardmanguy wrote...

I don't quite take well to people telling me I don't read. I've read your posts multiple times. Please refrain from the knee-jerk reaction of assuming a person in a conversation is ignorant of your meanings. Just because I disagree with you does not mean I don't "Get you." 

It's skills compliment a vanguard.(in my opinion.) Not the way you're used to seeing, or even how they've adjusted the Vanguard for ME3. I'm sorry you don't see it that way, but the great thing is that you don't have to play it. 

If you're implying that I think that the class is underpowered or that I'm unable to be successful with it on Silver/Gold or what have you, you better believe I'm going to assume that you missed the point of the stated issue. You state that the skills compliment the Vanguard's role. Elaborate. Give me something to work with instead of "I'm so great at this class and everyone needs to learn from my elite stylings."

Gladly. 

Let's look at the basics of the race, yes? 

Drell have the longest "Dodge animation" of all the races. The dodges can be used consecitively with the smallest amount of "Cooldown" time. Try dodging on a human. You're limited to about one roll every two seconds, whereas drell move about 1.5x as far, in about half the time. This puts you at a great advantage when it comes to dodging away, or to cover, increasing your survivability.

Also your weapons are available for shooting faster on a Drell than they are on a human, with the Salarian/Quarian side-step coming in second on the speed, but halving the distance a drell covers. If this doesn't apply to a vanguard, the ability to be able to maneuver around a battlefield, or behind cover, then I'm not sure what is. 

(I've heard claims that you're near invulnerable when you dodge, but I've yet to see an Atlas miss a homing missile on a dodging player. This is just a mention of how the game works mechanically.)

Looking at the skills: 

Pull: Pull is not meant to be a haymaker skill, akin to warp or overload. Pull is more of a "jab" skill, meant to disorient, expose, and allow you to either close the gap between you and your opponent...(Too far away for a safe charge, or to pick off a single target, allowing you to continue your focus on another target, or to simply maneuver.) or to expose enemies like the guardian. On a vanguard, who has to survive on fighting smart, it would be foolish to not give them a skill which would allow them to fight off a group, or to incapacitate an antagonistic target to grab some breathing room or to move. 

In a bit of speculation, we have yet to even scratch the tip of the iceberg when it comes to enemies we will encounter in MP. One of the tooltips state that an enemy may attach metal plates to weaker enemies. Five bucks that Pull will be able to expose those enemies. This skill is not meant to be a bread-butter kind of skill. It's a jab. Use it to gain distance, or expose weakness. Your gun, your charge, or your grenades are more than capable of securing a knockout. 

Charge: We really don't have to discuss anything here, just wanted to mention that I modified my Charge to hit two additional targets, and it really works great. Highly recommend it. 

Cluster Grenades: Here's the skill the Drell Vanguards got that basically replaced the "No-cooldown" skill slot that Pull grenade on Asari fills, or nova on the Human counterpart. Basically it's a cluster of grenades thrown at a target. While I will admit that I wish that the grenade would fly to the currently selected target rather than the center console cursor, these grenades are more versitile than nova for three reasons. 

1)They don't use up your barrier. (Nova Cancellation shouldn't make it into the main game. Sorry folks.) I really can't tell you how useful to have a no-cooldown skill that you don't need to sacrifice anything for is. 

2)It's a distance attack. You can use them up close. You can throw them far away. Try to nova an atlas from half a map away without moving. I can throw my grenades from a constant supply of them. 

3)Fully upgraded they do just about the same, if not more damage than nova. Especially in closed rooms, where enemies try to hide behind cover. 

Meanwhile, nova is still just an AoE attack, and useless unless you're in the immediate vicinity. It's personal opinion that if you have a skill you can't use at a distance in a shooter, it immediately becomes situational and a supplemental ability: because you can't use it at a distant target (No offense, but most targets will be "At distance" until you close the gap...) you have to put yourself in a situation to use it. Not so with Cluster grenades. 

I have maintained, and will always maintain that the Drell is not as user-friendly as a Human vanguard. Will more people play Human vanguards? Probably, and god bless-them. But Drell Vanguard along with the soon-to-come Asari Vanguard will not have the nova skills, but they will still be just as good, if not better than their human counterparts, in the right hands. 

In short, Human Vanguards Coming in at one main ability with a short distance AoE and a short-distance CC, versus a Drell Vanguard with one main ability with a long distance replenishable projectile, and a long-range CC will always be more useful in a shooter. In my opinion. 

(PS-I don't play my Drell from a distance. Shotgun/Charge is the mantra of the Vanguard. So it is with a Drell Vanguard.)

[xcrunr1647]

Butthead11 wrote...

Can drell vanguards still handle phantoms easily? If so i think the main thing vanguards are needed for is still in tact.

you can't be serious

[No Snakes Alive]

All this strategy theorycrafting flies out the window when a basic assault trooper's stray bullet on bronze can wipe out your entire shields. Dodging won't save you. Charge regenerating shields is pointless on a build with no shields to recharge, and Pull is extra effective for yanking shields away and setting up Biotic explosions (which again is a huge risk when your finisher is Charge and your shields are a complete joke) but that's all. And cluster grenades aren't even worth discussing.

Mor shields would make this class an enjoyable, more strategic counterpart to the in-your-face-all-the-time human vanguard. As it stands though, this class is gimped to hell and back. Pull is no more effective a disabled than any other ability from Overload to Throw and in between, Cluster grenades are no more effective a wasted button push than anything. Charge is a decent Biotic Combo finisher when it won't get you manhandled, which once again is almost never with this class.

Until I see someone play this build successfully as the happy medium between an in-your-face human vanguard and sit-back caster class that it seems meant to be, I just don't buy it. If you're sitting back behind cover spamming pull and gunshots the entire time you could be doing the same far more effectively with an Adept or Engineer. And if you're using this class/race's ability to close the distance and melee more effectively than others in conjunction with their ability to sit back and disable, WITHOUT DYING, I'd like to see how. As it stands though, I see this build only achieving half its potential with those ******-poor shields.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

xcrunr1647 wrote...

Butthead11 wrote...

Can drell vanguards still handle phantoms easily? If so i think the main thing vanguards are needed for is still in tact.

you can't be serious

lol, that's what Asari Adepts are for!   Vanguards rock Nemesii pretty handily though.


I'm having no real issues with my Drellguard. He's a bit weak at times, but it doesn't really matter if you play smarter.

Pull lets me play support in those occasional times (stagger, cc, debuffing guardians) charging is unwise. I have it on lvl 2 and don't intend on levelling it for a long time. Grenade is also a "support power" that lets me hang back every so often.

Drellguard is a happy medium b/w normal vanguard and caster. I dunno if he's necessarily the strongest, but he's fun and I do well with him. :shrug:

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 25 février 2012 - 08:32 .

[Hyrist]

No Snakes Alive wrote...

The "melee benefits" of the Drell class and the entire melee evolution path of the Fitness skill are utterly wasted on a class with shields made of tissue paper. The class can be played effectively, sure. And using Charge to finish off with your own self-made Biotic explosions is nice, but the class is easily far and away one of the least effective in the demo. The possibilities the class could have brought to the table are ruined by a strange decision to make it the squishiest class around. Why a Drell Vanguard would make my Quarian Engineer seem like a Krogan Sentinel when it comes to being able to take a few stray bullets is beyond me.

I tire of people who sit and beleive that just because you have a gap closer, you absolutey have to be a tank.

Most assasin archtypes have shields like wet tissue paper, so I don't see the point of your complaint.

Also, the demo features an enemy archtype that is strong against biotics by default. Centuions, Turrets, Atlases, all have shields that make biotics difficult to use with the exception of Stasis, which is broken against Cerberus.

But Drellguard is STILL effective in this manner. They're just should not be the first person to make a move against a group of enemies. Unlike other Vanguards, they're the type that should NOT have the bulk of attention - thus I say Drell are like Biotic Infiltrators.

This does not make them ineffective. Rather, they're being played to the opposite of how they should be, then scream "Wahh! Drellguard sucks!"

Same thing goes with Custer Gernades, actually. Enemy Archtype are the kinds that the gernades would not be very effective on, tied with the fact that they're often used improperly, makes for the same responces.

I don't know how many times I need to state this, but we should not even be having this discussion until after the official releace. We're playing with a third of the enemy factions and only 2 of an unknown number of maps, and a feint fraction of the available weapons.

[Abraham_uk]

I want to unlock this class.

Please Veteran packs give me the following:

Drell Vanguards
Any Krogan (soldier or sentinel don't care which)
An Asari adept (because why not)
A Turian Sentinel.

Quarian Engineer was very good, but more aliens to choose from would be nice.

At least I don't have to play as a human anymore.

Why Drell Vanguards

Charge and pull

I don't care about their grenade.

Modifié par Abraham_uk, 25 février 2012 - 08:48 .

[tomcruisejr]

They aren't going to fix balance issues.

MP is just tacked on, a side thought.  I await almost every party being full of asari adepts and asari vangaurds, 90% of the time.

Modifié par tomcruisejr, 25 février 2012 - 09:04 .

[Abraham_uk]

tomcruisejr wrote...

They aren't going to fix balance issues.

MP is just tacked on, a side thought.  I await almost every party being full of asari adepts and asari vangaurds, 90% of the time.

Well to be honest. I see humans as the jack of all trades. They can do everything but not as well as the specialist races.

Humans: jack of all trades
Asari and Drell: Biotics
Quarians and Salarians: Tech
Turian and Krogan; Combat and tactical.

When you have an unlock the unlock is supposed to be better than what you had before. By getting a new race, you getting a specialist who is better than the human counterpart. If that is not the case then what is the point?

Drell Vanguard sounds awesome (aside from the grenade power). Also has pull. Human vanguard has two different types of shockwave. Nova which expends barrier (which is another way to comit suicide unless you're a skilled player) and a low risk shockwave which is okay against guardians.

Drell vanguards however can rip those riot shields away instead of staggering them forcing you to use your guns to deliever a few headshots. Drell agility movements look more awesome (if not a little goofy). Maybe I'm a bit naive dismissing the grenade. Perhaps it is yet another reason why the Drell vanguard is awesome. I haven't unlocked that race class combo yet.

[No Snakes Alive]

I'm going to tl;dr the wall of text I originally had here.

What do Drellguards bring to the table?

-Karate kicks. You will probably die if you use them when there's even one additional enemy aside from the one you're kicking in the vicinity, b/c even my grandma has more shields than your Drellguard.

-Pull. Great for yanking riot-shields out of enemies' hands. Would be great for setting up biotic explosions with your combo finisher, Charge, if Charge didn't lead to almost instantaneous death 90% of the time you use it when there's more than a single enemy/group left to target. Again b/c your shields suck.

-Cluster grenades. Occasionally send enemies flying. Cool but not too effective.

-Cool sideslip dodges. Use them to get the hell out of any area where there's more than a couple unprotected enemies or you will surely die. B/c your shields are srsly THAT bad.

So yeah they sound like rly cool Biotic Assassins without any powers at all that reliably kill or set up kills (without killing yourself in the process).

Modifié par No Snakes Alive, 25 février 2012 - 09:51 .

[Endplanets]

Drells side flips always freak me out because I think they are Phantoms. And they need to button up their shirts.