123 réponses à ce sujet

[D Amiri]

@Kakaw

You just stated how you believe you have to spec Drellguard, then went on to explain why your spec sucks. Therefore Drellguards suck. I disagree with nearly ever choice you made in your build and weapon selection.

On my Drell I only max out Pull and Genades. The extra damage to lifted opponents and biotic detonation bonus for lvl 5& 6 pull make you more effective at all ranges and guarantees that Pull+Charge one shots mooks. The carry capacity and damage boost on lvl 5 & 6 Nades gives you the ability to charge and kill any shielded enemy quickly. Level 5 passive for the power/force bonus and level 5 fitness for the shield recharge.

I only level charge to 4 (damage & force). I'm not chaining charges so I don't need to Max it out. If my barrier is low I'm better off taking cover than to charge into another situation where they will be popped immediately. That's not to be confused with not using charge. I charge alot. But it's evaluate, charge, kill, cover, evaluate.. not charge/nova spamming every enemy I see.

I can play the class with a Shotgun or AR. You aren't a slave to super low cooldowns. As long Pull is less than 1.5 and charge below 4 secs you are fine. With the exception of the grab I'm not a fan of ME3 melee system. They leave you stuck in animations that can easily get you kill. Plus the Drell Kicks and Dodge have a horrible camera that doesn't allow you to turn during the animation and blocks out everything around you by zooming on your back.

[Erebus rep]

Hello everyone, I've read this thread and i see that everyone has valid points but I was thinking that me3 mp is supposed to be a team game, so drell could use their pull to combo with an adept and the continue doing their charge thing. Maybe i'm wrong as i don't play drell (human engineer rocks) but i felt that i had to point it out.

[sezneg]

Core_Commander wrote...

No Snakes Alive wrote...

Yeah, except you have to think "is there even one lowly assault trooper on bronze who will shoot at me?" instead. Doesn't have to be one extreme or the other. Give the Drellguard shields on par with Engineers and Adepts, not significantly lower and not Krogan Soldier level either. Then the class would work as it should.

My lowbie drellguard Sadface is fine for Silver at least so far, you can simply keep in mind that cover is a thing that exists (as well as weapons and melee, which all buy you time to re-charge).

Just like in ME2. The question isn't "is charge READY???" but "what after charge?" and it's not automatically answered by "NOVA chargnovachargnovachargnovacharge" in any case but when turrets are around.

You keep saying this... not at all what I have experienced.  Even without investing heavily in barrier strength I can take 3-4 hits from an assault trooper without losing all of my barrier on silver.

Maybe you're just getting hit in the head?

Anyways, this is a cover shooter and the AI can't effectively track you in your dodge animation (accept atlas rockets).

I enjoy the drellguard as is.  looking forward to finishing gold with him (getting closer!)

[Kakaw]

D Amiri wrote...

@Kakaw

You just stated how you believe you have to spec Drellguard, then went on to explain why your spec sucks. Therefore Drellguards suck. I disagree with nearly ever choice you made in your build and weapon selection.

On my Drell I only max out Pull and Genades. The extra damage to lifted opponents and biotic detonation bonus for lvl 5& 6 pull make you more effective at all ranges and guarantees that Pull+Charge one shots mooks. The carry capacity and damage boost on lvl 5 & 6 Nades gives you the ability to charge and kill any shielded enemy quickly. Level 5 passive for the power/force bonus and level 5 fitness for the shield recharge.

I only level charge to 4 (damage & force). I'm not chaining charges so I don't need to Max it out. If my barrier is low I'm better off taking cover than to charge into another situation where they will be popped immediately. That's not to be confused with not using charge. I charge alot. But it's evaluate, charge, kill, cover, evaluate.. not charge/nova spamming every enemy I see.

I can play the class with a Shotgun or AR. You aren't a slave to super low cooldowns. As long Pull is less than 1.5 and charge below 4 secs you are fine. With the exception of the grab I'm not a fan of ME3 melee system. They leave you stuck in animations that can easily get you kill. Plus the Drell Kicks and Dodge have a horrible camera that doesn't allow you to turn during the animation and blocks out everything around you by zooming on your back.

I play him with charge. My charge detonates and kills any red hp unit that has been pulled, regardless of my rank in pull (ok, if i dont have my 25% biotic bonus from charge, it doesnt 1 shot anything red), so I consider maxing pull to be a waste against cerberus. Further I wish I had maxed grenades. I only have them on rank 5; wasn't really thinking when I specced. I don't think drellguard sucks; I even think his toolset may prove to be great in many circumstances; I just think he needs slightly more shield (at the expense of hitpoints for all I care) to utilize his toolset fully and not be too reliant on everyone else. Too often and too fast, my health starts chipping away never to return .. until I'm so squish I'm scared to engage anything.

I was mainly taking a jab at those who dual-weapon him. You severly gimp your toolset that way, I feel, when you max drell assassin.

Also I feel that if you don't utilize charge, you may aswell not play a vanguard. I get that it's the only drell for now, but for release you can swap charge with reave, if you already play him as an adept.

Modifié par Kakaw, 27 février 2012 - 01:47 .

[Berkilak]

Kakaw wrote...

Also I feel that if you don't utilize charge, you may aswell not play a vanguard. I get that it's the only drell for now, but for release you can swap charge with reave, if you already play him as an adept.

This is the very heart of the issue. If you feel that using Charge is discouraged more often than not, something is integrally wrong with the class. It simply doesn't meld well with the other abilities, nor does it meld well with his caster-esque health/barrier pool. So people establish a playstyle that has a very minimal usage of the defining ability (wherein it would be beneficial if it were given an ability that was able to be used more often), and call that the unique playstyle of the drellguard. That simply isn't so. They're just playing gimped Adepts.

[Berkilak]

sezneg wrote...

Core_Commander wrote...

No Snakes Alive wrote...

Yeah, except you have to think "is there even one lowly assault trooper on bronze who will shoot at me?" instead. Doesn't have to be one extreme or the other. Give the Drellguard shields on par with Engineers and Adepts, not significantly lower and not Krogan Soldier level either. Then the class would work as it should.

My lowbie drellguard Sadface is fine for Silver at least so far, you can simply keep in mind that cover is a thing that exists (as well as weapons and melee, which all buy you time to re-charge).

Just like in ME2. The question isn't "is charge READY???" but "what after charge?" and it's not automatically answered by "NOVA chargnovachargnovachargnovacharge" in any case but when turrets are around.

You keep saying this... not at all what I have experienced.  Even without investing heavily in barrier strength I can take 3-4 hits from an assault trooper without losing all of my barrier on silver.

Maybe you're just getting hit in the head?

Anyways, this is a cover shooter and the AI can't effectively track you in your dodge animation (accept atlas rockets).

I enjoy the drellguard as is.  looking forward to finishing gold with him (getting closer!)

It's just that people are able to excel on Bronze/Silver and expect to be able to continue that trend on Gold without a hitch. Bronze, anyone can do, easily. Silver is getting harder - it begins to test your limits, but playing to the class's utmost, you can still utterly decimate the difficulty, even while solo. In Gold, the numbers simply do not allow you to play the class as it was intended, and instead has you played as a poor man's adept who only excels at mopping up those who escape the sights of your team and attempt to flank your team alone.

[Cloaking_Thane]

They problem is every Vanguard now has to have charge and nova to be at maximum efficiency because of their synergy, every other class has a diversified Y button except Sentinal and sentianl can go tech/biotic to make it more diverse. I think this hurts the DVG in many aspects. They really just need to give the DVG more health/barriers. Then I think it would be much better on gold.

[Berkilak]

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

They problem is every Vanguard now has to have charge and nova to be at maximum efficiency because of their synergy, every other class has a diversified Y button except Sentinal and sentianl can go tech/biotic to make it more diverse. I think this hurts the DVG in many aspects. They really just need to give the DVG more health/barriers. Then I think it would be much better on gold.

They either need their "drell" abilties (Cluster and Pull, shared with the drell Adept) modified to make them synergize better with Charge (maybe not as well as Charge/Nova, but a lot better than simply causing explosions to unshielded enemies), or have one of them replaced.

[mybudgee]

Does anyone actually think ALL drell are ninja masters??!

[Abraham_uk]

mybudgee wrote...

Does anyone actually think ALL drell are ninja masters??!

This is N7. This is the very best the Drell have on offer.

I think most drell are nowhere near this good.

[Berkilak]

Abraham_uk wrote...

mybudgee wrote...

Does anyone actually think ALL drell are ninja masters??!

This is N7. This is the very best the Drell have on offer.

I think most drell are nowhere near this good.

Well, N7 training is an Alliance thing. Very human. The Alliance might have a few aliens in the employ, particularly during the Reaper invasion, but I would be very surprised if they received N7 training.

[Berkilak]

lightsnow13 wrote...

I just don't like how they have almost no shields. Giving them charge and 2 more weaker abilities compared to the human vanguards means they're still going to be weaker than the humans. It's a little frustrating if this is our comparison.. I kind of wish human vanguards got charge, nova, and cluster grenade. Drell can have charge, shockwave and pull.

I'm not too impressed with pull compared to the other abilities that can also cc yet do more damage. I just really want to try the drell adept. Reave is probably going to be amazing..

It's annoying that our defining ability is a crutch on Gold - it will be interesting to see how many drell fans stick with the Vanguard once the Adept is available, since Reave fits with the proposed drellguard playstyle magnitudes more aptly.

[the almighty moo]

i love the drellguard, specially when they can move so fast, and i the only one that can actually deal with guardians as some people are a bit daft in that respect.

[Berkilak]

the almighty moo wrote...

i love the drellguard, specially when they can move so fast, and i the only one that can actually deal with guardians as some people are a bit daft in that respect.

Anyone with the slightest bit of accuracy can deal with Guardians easily. Yes, it's fun to get right in the faces on Bronze/Silver, pulling their shields out of their hands and staggering them right into a biotic punch to one-shot them. But once you get to Gold, when accuracy is paramount in any case, their shields become somewhat of a moot point.

[Quething]

Kakaw wrote...
Also I feel that if you don't utilize charge, you may aswell not play a vanguard. I get that it's the only drell for now, but for release you can swap charge with reave, if you already play him as an adept.

I love Charge as much as every other ME2 vanguard, but I don't get this at all. The vanguard is not defined by Charge. The vanguard is defined as "biotic and combat specialist." Vanguards can kill stuff with guns, or knock stuff around with biotics. That's what makes us vanguards. Not shotguns. Not punching people in the face. Not even mobility, necessarily. "Biotics + combat = vanguard." That's it. No shotgun or melee requirement. In fact ME1 the pistol vanguard with Singularity was the strongest possible build. In ME2 we actually got gimped; Charge is amazing and made us the most fun, most survivable class in the game but it also made us a complete one-trick pony. If you wanted to build a biotic vanguard in ME2... you played an adept, and lived with the sub-par weapons.

The drellguard has +weapon damage passives and can use biotics to crowd control or kill. It is an awesome thing. It is the return of flexibility to the vanguard playstyle. Equip a sniper rifle and a Tempst or Carnifex. Stay at range. Use pull and grenades to get people where you want them, and then shoot them until they die with your exceptionally powerful weapons. Get yourself out of the melee mindset. Vanguard does not = melee. Vanguard = biotic combat hybrid. Combat can happen at range.

If anything, I'd say the drellguard should lose Charge, and pick up Warp, Throw or even Conc Shot instead. No, that wouldn't make the drellguard an adept. Adepts don't get +weapon damage.

(I mean I agree they're too fragile. I suspect, though, that that's intentional to try to encourage people to play them less like ME2 vanguards.)

[Berkilak]

But Quething - given that there are no restrictions on weapon use in ME3, does that not render the "combat" specialty relatively moot? I mean, sure - it's a good perk. But we're still defined more by our actual powers than our weapons in ME3. And the support playstyle that you describe simply fits an Adept more, + weapon damage or not. Well, at the very least, they do it more effectively.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, and I would be saying the exact same thing if this game were ME1. But the landscape has changed. The rules have changed. And I feel that the drellguard is trying to live up to an ideal that existed in ME1, but no longer does in ME3 given the flexibility of weapon use and newly defined roles.

[Quething]

Berkilak wrote...

But Quething - given that there are no restrictions on weapon use in ME3, does that not render the "combat" specialty relatively moot? I mean, sure - it's a good perk. But we're still defined more by our actual powers than our weapons in ME3. And the support playstyle that you describe simply fits an Adept more, + weapon damage or not. Well, at the very least, they do it more effectively.

I'm confused when people say that too. We're defined far more by our weapons in ME3. The playstyle difference between an infiltrator who decides to carry a sniper rifle and an infiltrator who decides to carry a shotgun is tremendous. The shotty infiltrator will not only approach a battlefield differently than the sniper (which was true in ME2 as well), but also choose completely different power evolutions than the sniper (to a degree we couldn't approach in ME2). Not only that, but the ability to pick our weapons from the beginning and not 2/3 of the way through the game means our playstyles are divergent from day one, instead of every sniper vanguard playing like a shotgun vanguard until the Collector Ship because there simply is no way whatsoever for them to fight at range until then.

The difference between a vanguard with an AR and an adept with an AR isn't Charge. It's that the vanguard gets 50% of her damage and kills from that AR and the adept only gets ~10%. Because the adept doesn't have inferno ammo or a +dmg passive and uses the gun to strip protections and support warp explosions, while the vanguard doesn't have the adept's sheer physics damage but can DPS down a Centurian in a single clip between cooldowns. It's not about the fact that the vanguard can choose more weapons than an adept (and she still can, by the way, the weight system favors soldier classes) - it's the fact that regardless of which weapon is out, it is always more effective in the vanguard's hands.

And it's not a support role that I describe, except inasmuch as all co-op play is supportive. It's like, as others have mentioned, an infiltrator. You kill stuff. You just set up your kills with pull and grenades instead of setting them up with cryo and cloak.

[Berkilak]

The player is defined more by their weapon. The classes themselves are not, given that there is equitable opportunity for every class to use the same weapons, instead of the ME1/2 restrictions. I'm heading out now, so I can't start ranting as much as usual. I'll post more where I get back. But in short, I don't think that these weapon boni affect the playstyle as much as you think it does (at least on Gold), and given that focusing on those weapon skills is to the detriment of the already meagre biotic skills, why not play a Soldier or someone with powers that actively support weapon damage (asari Adepts included)?

Modifié par Berkilak, 27 février 2012 - 09:35 .

[Berkilak]

I actually wound up saying most of what I wanted to say, hah. In addition, I would only add that, like a lot of people here, you are describing an ideal moreso than a reality when it comes to the class. You might even be fooled into thinking that it applies on Gold if you're decent with the class on Bronze/Silver. But as soon as you step into Gold, the numbers are simply playing against you, no matter how good you are as a drellguard. If you're good enough to maintain the #1 score on Gold as a drellguard without having your team revive you, you're good enough to solo Gold on a decent class because the numbers favour them.

[Berkilak]

Also, it is a support role you describe. Either you focus on the weapon damage and lose out on the ability to set up your own kills effectively, or the inverse. Other classes can have it both ways. The drellguard cannot (again, on Gold - we're fine on Silver).

[Rahabzu]

Gasp triple post, Oh and Berkilak it wasn't so hard for my drellguard to survive in gold because of his quickness and my partners were handling anything that could hit me from behind if we set up a defensive position. I use a viper sniper rifle pull and a little bit of grenades, I use my charge for survival, transportation, and mop up.

Though i CANT wait for Drell adept 8D, I'm gonna make him a glass cannon.

Modifié par Rahabzu, 28 février 2012 - 06:13 .

[Berkilak]

Rahabzu wrote...

Gasp triple post, Oh and Berkilak it wasn't so hard for my drellguard to survive in gold because of his quickness and my partners were handling anything that could hit me from behind if we set up a defensive position. I use a viper sniper rifle pull and a little bit of grenades, I use my charge for survival, transportation, and mop up.

Though i CANT wait for Drell adept 8D, I'm gonna make him a glass cannon.

In other words, your team had to babysit you. The "quickness" you speak of is nearly irreleant. Yes, you can dodge pretty much anything bar grenades or missiles with your sidestep. But that doesn't mean anything if you can be downed in that split second wherein you are standing still. Likewise, whereas the drellguard can only use Charge for a few select and relatively unimportant situations (although Charge revives can be pretty clutch), the human variation is able to use it offensively, and quite safely at that. Where you laud Pull, I cite the asari's Stasis (to be available to their Vanguard counterpart as well as the Adept) which is more reliable and works through shields and will allow the asari to set up Biotic Explosions more reliably due to enemies floating too high to be Charged.

Don't get me wrong - we are able to do things. But we cannot do them as safely or as reliably as other classes can on Gold. More stylishly, perhaps. But the numbers simply act against us, and we have extraordinarily poor class synergy relative to nearly all other classes bar Human Soldier (AR effectively prevents him from using Concussive Shot, which is a key ability).

A great player can make a bad class look good. A bad player can make a great class look good. A great player can make a great class look invincible. Drellguard is far from useless, but in the hands of a skilled player, why settle for such a fragile character with literally nothing to make up for it relative to the skillsets of more powerful classes?

We are comparatively useless on Gold, regardless of how good a great player can make us look. And that's a big issue.

Modifié par Berkilak, 28 février 2012 - 06:58 .

[Rahabzu]

Berkilak wrote...

Rahabzu wrote...

Gasp triple post, Oh and Berkilak it wasn't so hard for my drellguard to survive in gold because of his quickness and my partners were handling anything that could hit me from behind if we set up a defensive position. I use a viper sniper rifle pull and a little bit of grenades, I use my charge for survival, transportation, and mop up.

Though i CANT wait for Drell adept 8D, I'm gonna make him a glass cannon.

In other words, your team had to babysit you. The "quickness" you speak of is nearly irreleant. Yes, you can dodge pretty much anything bar grenades or missiles with your sidestep. But that doesn't mean anything if you can be downed in that split second wherein you are standing still. Likewise, whereas the drellguard can only use Charge for a few select and relatively unimportant situations (although Charge revives can be pretty clutch), the human variation is able to use it offensively, and quite safely at that. Where you laud Pull, I cite the asari's Stasis (to be available to their Vanguard counterpart as well as the Adept) which is more reliable and works through shields and will allow the asari to set up Biotic Explosions more reliably due to enemies floating too high to be Charged.

Don't get me wrong - we are able to do things. But we cannot do them as safely or as reliably as other classes can on Gold. More stylishly, perhaps. But the numbers simply act against us, and we have extraordinarily poor class synergy relative to nearly all other classes bar Human Soldier (AR effectively prevents him from using Concussive Shot, which is a key ability).

A great player can make a bad class look good. A bad player can make a great class look good. A great player can make a great class look invincible. Drellguard is far from useless, but in the hands of a skilled player, why settle for such a fragile character with literally nothing to make up for it relative to the skillsets of more powerful classes?

We are comparatively useless on Gold, regardless of how good a great player can make us look. And that's a big issue.

Um no I was being useful by keeping phantoms, and atlas at bay and sniping/pulling/grenading the rest.. and of course I agree that it is EXTREMELY easy for us to die but I also think for not having cloak we can escape easier than other races (From my experiences).  I mean it would be nice to have a boosted barrier but I still think it's possible to do well in gold albeit much less offensive and in your face than a human vanguard.

Modifié par Rahabzu, 28 février 2012 - 07:25 .

[Berkilak]

Rahabzu wrote...

Berkilak wrote...

Rahabzu wrote...

Gasp triple post, Oh and Berkilak it wasn't so hard for my drellguard to survive in gold because of his quickness and my partners were handling anything that could hit me from behind if we set up a defensive position. I use a viper sniper rifle pull and a little bit of grenades, I use my charge for survival, transportation, and mop up.

Though i CANT wait for Drell adept 8D, I'm gonna make him a glass cannon.

In other words, your team had to babysit you. The "quickness" you speak of is nearly irreleant. Yes, you can dodge pretty much anything bar grenades or missiles with your sidestep. But that doesn't mean anything if you can be downed in that split second wherein you are standing still. Likewise, whereas the drellguard can only use Charge for a few select and relatively unimportant situations (although Charge revives can be pretty clutch), the human variation is able to use it offensively, and quite safely at that. Where you laud Pull, I cite the asari's Stasis (to be available to their Vanguard counterpart as well as the Adept) which is more reliable and works through shields and will allow the asari to set up Biotic Explosions more reliably due to enemies floating too high to be Charged.

Don't get me wrong - we are able to do things. But we cannot do them as safely or as reliably as other classes can on Gold. More stylishly, perhaps. But the numbers simply act against us, and we have extraordinarily poor class synergy relative to nearly all other classes bar Human Soldier (AR effectively prevents him from using Concussive Shot, which is a key ability).

A great player can make a bad class look good. A bad player can make a great class look good. A great player can make a great class look invincible. Drellguard is far from useless, but in the hands of a skilled player, why settle for such a fragile character with literally nothing to make up for it relative to the skillsets of more powerful classes?

We are comparatively useless on Gold, regardless of how good a great player can make us look. And that's a big issue.

Um no three seperate times I was leading in points.. and of course I agree that it is EXTREMELY easy for us to die but I also think for not having cloak we can escape easier than other races (From my experiences).  I mean it would be nice to have a boosted barrier but I still think it's possible to do well in gold albeit much less offensive and in your face than a human vanguard.

Any great player can carry baddies. If your team wasn't beating you in points, they were either other gimped classes are simply bad players. Mechanically, other classes simply care better with much less effort. This is the issue at hand here. I could whip the ePeen out, too, but that would do very little to help the class. 

Mass Effect 3's gameplay is great because the person behind the character can make a lot of difference. But that doesn't mean that they couldn't make more of a difference on a mechanically superior character.