123 réponses à ce sujet

[Berkilak]

And to your edit, I agree that we're pretty good at serving as a close-range bodyguard, watching for any Phantoms or the like that slip through and try to flank your team. But even in that niche, the human Vanguard simply fulfills our role better, mechanically.

[frostycyke]

Berkilak wrote...


Any great player can carry baddies. If your team wasn't beating you in points, they were either other gimped classes are simply bad players. Mechanically, other classes simply care better with much less effort. This is the issue at hand here. I could whip the ePeen out, too, but that would do very little to help the class. 

Mass Effect 3's gameplay is great because the person behind the character can make a lot of difference. But that doesn't mean that they couldn't make more of a difference on a mechanically superior character.

So just say, you hate Drellguard and no amount of logical discussion is going to persuade you.. I mean, this guy came out and said he did good and you refuted his claims saying he plays with baddies. when you have no evidence to support it.

The class plays very different than a front line human vanguard, I use the AR and am more of a mid range floater, able to move freely and act as a safety.  charge is my least used skill, Most of my kills are from my Rifle, Pull and grenades are great disruption tools.

I wouldn't turn down more shields on a drellguard, but I wouldn't turn down more shields on any class to be honest. Even if drell had more sheilds, they still wouldn't be the same as a human, Their power set and movement allows them more flexibility in their playstyle and their approach.

[Berkilak]

frostycyke wrote...

Berkilak wrote...


Any great player can carry baddies. If your team wasn't beating you in points, they were either other gimped classes are simply bad players. Mechanically, other classes simply care better with much less effort. This is the issue at hand here. I could whip the ePeen out, too, but that would do very little to help the class. 

Mass Effect 3's gameplay is great because the person behind the character can make a lot of difference. But that doesn't mean that they couldn't make more of a difference on a mechanically superior character.

So just say, you hate Drellguard and no amount of logical discussion is going to persuade you.. I mean, this guy came out and said he did good and you refuted his claims saying he plays with baddies. when you have no evidence to support it.

The class plays very different than a front line human vanguard, I use the AR and am more of a mid range floater, able to move freely and act as a safety.  charge is my least used skill, Most of my kills are from my Rifle, Pull and grenades are great disruption tools.

I wouldn't turn down more shields on a drellguard, but I wouldn't turn down more shields on any class to be honest. Even if drell had more sheilds, they still wouldn't be the same as a human, Their power set and movement allows them more flexibility in their playstyle and their approach.

Conceptually, I love the class. Moreso than any other. But I have both played one extensively on Gold and played with them on Gold. They're not completely ineffective. But they get the short end of the stick when other classes synergize better with their moveset and are at a pure numerical advantage for defenses and weapon damage. And again, the majority of what I see being post applies to the playstyle of the drellguard... on Silver or lower.

Also, you cannot argue for their usability in a vacuum. You are taking up a slot that could be fulfilling the roles you propose much more effectively. Grenades, I've come to like more than I did in the OP. But they're still extremely limiting since they aren't spammable (when Nova does comparable damage with no limit given Charge synergy). Likewise, Pull is not "great." At least, not relative to any move that works on a shielded target. Particularly when asari Vanguards will have Stasis.

You can both love something and see its flaws. You needn't blindly love something and overlook its shortcomings in order to truly love it (at least for inanimate objects ).

[Berkilak]

At the very least, my concerns are not totally unfounded, after a summarizing PM to Mr. Gaspur (I assume):

CGaspur
10:06 PM 2012-02-28
No worries you raise some very valid points. We may give him a buff

[No Snakes Alive]

Berkilak wrote...

At the very least, my concerns are not totally unfounded, after a summarizing PM to Mr. Gaspur (I assume):

CGaspur
10:06 PM 2012-02-28
No worries you raise some very valid points. We may give him a buff

That is awesome news.

[Berkilak]

No Snakes Alive wrote...

Berkilak wrote...

At the very least, my concerns are not totally unfounded, after a summarizing PM to Mr. Gaspur (I assume):

CGaspur
10:06 PM 2012-02-28
No worries you raise some very valid points. We may give him a buff

That is awesome news.

Even though it wasn't definite, it does give me hope.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind the drellguard if all other classes required an equal level of skill and effort. But the simple fact is that they do not, for good or for ill. The drellguard has a great concept, but it really would have to be in a different game entirely to be as effective as most other classes, regardless of their effort.

[Berkilak]

For drellguard justice!

[Kakaw]

lightsnow13 wrote...

I just don't like how they have almost no shields. Giving them charge and 2 more weaker abilities compared to the human vanguards means they're still going to be weaker than the humans. It's a little frustrating if this is our comparison.. I kind of wish human vanguards got charge, nova, and cluster grenade. Drell can have charge, shockwave and pull.

I'm not too impressed with pull compared to the other abilities that can also cc yet do more damage. I just really want to try the drell adept. Reave is probably going to be amazing..

Wtf?? You want shockwave instead of grenades? Take away drellguards best power and swap it for the humans weakest, and glue on a sticker that says "fixed" ?

[Sentr0]

drell vanguards is like the worst class of the game.

my 2 cents

[Kakaw]

Quething wrote...

Kakaw wrote...
Also I feel that if you don't utilize charge, you may aswell not play a vanguard. I get that it's the only drell for now, but for release you can swap charge with reave, if you already play him as an adept.

I love Charge as much as every other ME2 vanguard, but I don't get this at all. The vanguard is not defined by Charge. The vanguard is defined as "biotic and combat specialist." Vanguards can kill stuff with guns, or knock stuff around with biotics. That's what makes us vanguards. Not shotguns. Not punching people in the face. Not even mobility, necessarily. "Biotics + combat = vanguard." That's it. No shotgun or melee requirement. In fact ME1 the pistol vanguard with Singularity was the strongest possible build. In ME2 we actually got gimped; Charge is amazing and made us the most fun, most survivable class in the game but it also made us a complete one-trick pony. If you wanted to build a biotic vanguard in ME2... you played an adept, and lived with the sub-par weapons.

The drellguard has +weapon damage passives and can use biotics to crowd control or kill. It is an awesome thing. It is the return of flexibility to the vanguard playstyle. Equip a sniper rifle and a Tempst or Carnifex. Stay at range. Use pull and grenades to get people where you want them, and then shoot them until they die with your exceptionally powerful weapons. Get yourself out of the melee mindset. Vanguard does not = melee. Vanguard = biotic combat hybrid. Combat can happen at range.

If anything, I'd say the drellguard should lose Charge, and pick up Warp, Throw or even Conc Shot instead. No, that wouldn't make the drellguard an adept. Adepts don't get +weapon damage.

(I mean I agree they're too fragile. I suspect, though, that that's intentional to try to encourage people to play them less like ME2 vanguards.)

Tbh I'm happy in my melee mindset. The only way to get an edge in weapon damage, over an adept, is to spec and utilize charge, and spec and utilize heavy melee (and kill with it). So again, I don't see how the vanguard you describe would be anything other than a drell adept without reave. If you want the vanguards damage bonus, you gotta rack up melee kills (75% melee dmg for 20-30 seconds, and 25% weapon damage for 20 seconds !), and use charge (15% weapon damage for 3 seconds). Not saying it's bad, just saying they don't synnergize with the biotic "adept" style at all, in my opinion. Thus I play him with charge and shotgun. Doing the melee style..

[Berkilak]

Kakaw wrote...

Quething wrote...

Kakaw wrote...
Also I feel that if you don't utilize charge, you may aswell not play a vanguard. I get that it's the only drell for now, but for release you can swap charge with reave, if you already play him as an adept.

I love Charge as much as every other ME2 vanguard, but I don't get this at all. The vanguard is not defined by Charge. The vanguard is defined as "biotic and combat specialist." Vanguards can kill stuff with guns, or knock stuff around with biotics. That's what makes us vanguards. Not shotguns. Not punching people in the face. Not even mobility, necessarily. "Biotics + combat = vanguard." That's it. No shotgun or melee requirement. In fact ME1 the pistol vanguard with Singularity was the strongest possible build. In ME2 we actually got gimped; Charge is amazing and made us the most fun, most survivable class in the game but it also made us a complete one-trick pony. If you wanted to build a biotic vanguard in ME2... you played an adept, and lived with the sub-par weapons.

The drellguard has +weapon damage passives and can use biotics to crowd control or kill. It is an awesome thing. It is the return of flexibility to the vanguard playstyle. Equip a sniper rifle and a Tempst or Carnifex. Stay at range. Use pull and grenades to get people where you want them, and then shoot them until they die with your exceptionally powerful weapons. Get yourself out of the melee mindset. Vanguard does not = melee. Vanguard = biotic combat hybrid. Combat can happen at range.

If anything, I'd say the drellguard should lose Charge, and pick up Warp, Throw or even Conc Shot instead. No, that wouldn't make the drellguard an adept. Adepts don't get +weapon damage.

(I mean I agree they're too fragile. I suspect, though, that that's intentional to try to encourage people to play them less like ME2 vanguards.)

Tbh I'm happy in my melee mindset. The only way to get an edge in weapon damage, over an adept, is to spec and utilize charge, and spec and utilize heavy melee (and kill with it). So again, I don't see how the vanguard you describe would be anything other than a drell adept without reave. If you want the vanguards damage bonus, you gotta rack up melee kills (75% melee dmg for 20-30 seconds, and 25% weapon damage for 20 seconds !), and use charge (15% weapon damage for 3 seconds). Not saying it's bad, just saying they don't synnergize with the biotic "adept" style at all, in my opinion. Thus I play him with charge and shotgun. Doing the melee style..

And here we have demonstrated the inherent problem with the class, alluded to in the OP. We have two moderately effective playstyles, the existence of both allowing neither to shine. Both are viable, but not in relation to classes that have an extreme focus on one or the other. Likewise, the drellguard can't really change their role "on the fly" effectively on Gold. We need to choose to specialize in a playstyle that only half of our abilitiy pool supports.

Modifié par Berkilak, 02 mars 2012 - 06:24 .

[Kakaw]

Berkilak wrote...

Kakaw wrote...

Quething wrote...

Kakaw wrote...
Also I feel that if you don't utilize charge, you may aswell not play a vanguard. I get that it's the only drell for now, but for release you can swap charge with reave, if you already play him as an adept.

I love Charge as much as every other ME2 vanguard, but I don't get this at all. The vanguard is not defined by Charge. The vanguard is defined as "biotic and combat specialist." Vanguards can kill stuff with guns, or knock stuff around with biotics. That's what makes us vanguards. Not shotguns. Not punching people in the face. Not even mobility, necessarily. "Biotics + combat = vanguard." That's it. No shotgun or melee requirement. In fact ME1 the pistol vanguard with Singularity was the strongest possible build. In ME2 we actually got gimped; Charge is amazing and made us the most fun, most survivable class in the game but it also made us a complete one-trick pony. If you wanted to build a biotic vanguard in ME2... you played an adept, and lived with the sub-par weapons.

The drellguard has +weapon damage passives and can use biotics to crowd control or kill. It is an awesome thing. It is the return of flexibility to the vanguard playstyle. Equip a sniper rifle and a Tempst or Carnifex. Stay at range. Use pull and grenades to get people where you want them, and then shoot them until they die with your exceptionally powerful weapons. Get yourself out of the melee mindset. Vanguard does not = melee. Vanguard = biotic combat hybrid. Combat can happen at range.

If anything, I'd say the drellguard should lose Charge, and pick up Warp, Throw or even Conc Shot instead. No, that wouldn't make the drellguard an adept. Adepts don't get +weapon damage.

(I mean I agree they're too fragile. I suspect, though, that that's intentional to try to encourage people to play them less like ME2 vanguards.)

Tbh I'm happy in my melee mindset. The only way to get an edge in weapon damage, over an adept, is to spec and utilize charge, and spec and utilize heavy melee (and kill with it). So again, I don't see how the vanguard you describe would be anything other than a drell adept without reave. If you want the vanguards damage bonus, you gotta rack up melee kills (75% melee dmg for 20-30 seconds, and 25% weapon damage for 20 seconds !), and use charge (15% weapon damage for 3 seconds). Not saying it's bad, just saying they don't synnergize with the biotic "adept" style at all, in my opinion. Thus I play him with charge and shotgun. Doing the melee style..

And here we have demonstrated the inherent problem with the class, alluded to in the OP. We have two moderately effective playstyles, the existence of both allowing neither to shine. Both are viable, but not in relation to classes that have an extreme focus on one or the other. Likewise, the drellguard can't really change their role "on the fly" effectively on Gold. We need to choose to specialize in a playstyle that only half of our abilitiy pool supports.

Hm, I think our role, summed up, is charge in, wreck havoc, and get the hell out. The way you do it is by charging to the back of  the enemy pack (preferably with a pull or stasis to cause and explosion), then shoot your way to the end, turn around, throw grenades, side-step outta there. Charge again, shoot shoot, run around, and win. More nades and more charge and more running around corners if needed. Vs 1-2 targets we are as good as any (even vs phantoms, or specially vs phantoms), just have to rely on stagger alot, cause we can't take hits. Just need abit more shields, so I don't die by "accident" whenever I have slightly low bloodsugar (irl). The "in and out" is important, but I find it much better to charge behind everything. It gives you chance to run further behind (while shooting at whatever you charged), and release the grenades, and side-step out before they know what hit them - or just charge and shoot down the remains. You ALWAYS need an exit plan. And if you meet more resistance than expected, then get out. A charge that gets you cornered is suicide. Charging in the back of the enemies leaves you with a very good escape path, and a great flank.

Also I run around and find flanking positions alot. Free hits before the enemy notices.

I guess that's what a human vanguard does.. and he does it with possibly less risk. But grenades are just that good. And pull is so unique, I can't wait to see its applications on other maps. It's no stasis, but I expect it will have similar uses to pulling away guardian shields, and we will feel useful just because of that. I really feel our toolset is solid, we just need slightly more shields so we can utilize it properly...

Modifié par Kakaw, 02 mars 2012 - 07:09 .

[D Amiri]

If the DrellGuard didn't have Charge I would never play the class. It's Charge that unifies your other powers. I have become very good at throwing C.Nades. But consistently hitting Pulled targets with them is still close dodgy. Charge never misses Pulled targets and brings me to a range where C.nades will hit there mark and kill at a very high percentage. I don't even max out Charge in my favorite Drell build 4/6/6/5/3. But I'm Charging every 20-30 secs. It's just not every 3-5 seconds like the NovaGuard.

If you want to play a long range Drell, play Adept.

[Rahabzu]

D Amiri wrote...

If the DrellGuard didn't have Charge I would never play the class. It's Charge that unifies your other powers. I have become very good at throwing C.Nades. But consistently hitting Pulled targets with them is still close dodgy. Charge never misses Pulled targets and brings me to a range where C.nades will hit there mark and kill at a very high percentage. I don't even max out Charge in my favorite Drell build 4/6/6/5/3. But I'm Charging every 20-30 secs. It's just not every 3-5 seconds like the NovaGuard.

If you want to play a long range Drell, play Adept.

I actually will in the full game I cant wait to try out reave.

[Berkilak]

Rahabzu wrote...

I actually will in the full game I cant wait to try out reave.

I'm very curious to see if there are a few martial arts Adepts out there once release hits. Reave might lend them even more survivability than Charge.

[Berkilak]

Well, I'm ready to jump back into multiplayer - what's our situation?

[Dachau Joseph]

Berkilak wrote...

Well, I'm ready to jump back into multiplayer - what's our situation?

Slightly better but not by very much at all.

[statistx]

I'd love to get it finally...had it in the demo and knew exactly that i would first unlock all other races before i get him again....wheel of fortune system, i love you....

I loved the grenades, since it is rather hard to get some barrier/shield killing abilities as a human vanguard, but i'd probably prefer nova with the last levelup over it and i don't really feel the Pull move as a vanguard either...except maybe for the shields, but as you wrote, that makes other classes that deal with them unnecessary.

[RamsenC]

Replace Pull with Reave and now you have a class. If both Asari can have Stasis I don't see why both Drell can't have Reave.

Reave > Charge sets up biotic explosions as well. Plus it would probably make it the best class against Reapers. 

Modifié par RamsenC, 12 mars 2012 - 12:05 .

[Berkilak]

RamsenC wrote...

Replace Pull with Reave and now you have a class. If both Asari can have Stasis I don't see why both Drell can't have Reave.

Reave > Charge sets up biotic explosions as well. Plus it would probably make it the best class against Reapers. 

Anything to support the playstyle - it's disheartening to hear that our moveset still doesn't match the intended playstyle.

[Darkslayer557]

They already buffed drell guard from the demo. It's just not a character suitable for gold difficulty.

[Berkilak]

Darkslayer557 wrote...

They already buffed drell guard from the demo. It's just not a character suitable for gold difficulty.

So there's no new niche that proponents of the class were certain the class would fill?

[Sereaph502]

I think the trap everyone is falling into is thinking the drell vanguard plays EXACTLY like the human and asari vanguard. While human/asari use charge/nova/heavy melee, drell vanguard can NOT. Instead, they use Pull/Cluster Grenade + Charge to set off biotic explosions for their AoE instead.

You don't have to worry about return fire because all the enemies are floating in the air or dead due to the biotic explosion.

[Berkilak]

I haven't get unlocked the Vanguard, but I have to say that the drell Adept seems to be everything that a drellguard on Gold could hope to aspire to.