262 réponses à ce sujet

[Random citizen]

Fenix Hero wrote...

I have had no problems with using biotics, Asari Adept is honestly wicked OP. Stasis works even with shield, statis bubble is amazing, followed by a warp or throw for a nice explosion that still affects them and their shields. Stasis also makes Guardians drop their shield.

I think it would be fair if it didnt work as well on barrier. Perhaps momentarily slowed targets with barrier down.

[Kronner]

Throw one shots enemies on Gold. Cmon.

[MELTOR13]

Is this a joke topic?

[Alamar2078]

As far as I can tell Biotics work reasonably well. IMHO making the above changes would make it too easy for Human Adepts and would negate needing a team of people with various skills.

[Hyrist]

D.Kain wrote...

Stasis is awesome indeed, other biotic powers should get a buff imo. 

1) Make enemies stop dodging biotics. That is completely lore braking. Dodging a biotic throw ( or any other biotic power for that matter, would be like dodgin rain or wind. The projectile is just braking the fourth wall so that we can aim with biotics better, it's not really there. Or just make biotics fast as bullets, which will make sure they are not dodged.

2) Biotic attacks should affect guardian with his shield. Carrying a shield doesn't protect one from shifting gravity, both the guardian and the shield can be thrown by powers like throw/shockwave, also if warp can affect a whole freaking atlas, I don't see why it can't warp a guardian with his shield. Singularity doesn't freaking hit the guardian, I don't get why they back away as if they gor a bullet, singularity should pull the shield off the guardian and make it float, like pull. Also area pull should lift both guardian and the shield at once. Charge should also send guardian to the ground with his shield, and nova should go right through it. 

3) Ideally I would make shielded targets be affected by all biotics as well, as stasis does, and just make every biotic power drain a portion of barrier, like nova does. And make a toggle for biotic barrier, so that enemies drain health without draining the barrier, when I need to use biotics under fire.

Thoughts? 

I disagree, and I want to give you full, respectful reasons, so I'll start by addressing your issues here.

1) Given that an enemy disabeled by a biotic is pretty much consitered dead, I have to disagree here. It's not lore breaking that someone has the ability to dodge/evade/block biotics, consitering the manipulation of Dark Energy is the root cause of Biotics, having it exist as on the terms of "Esclating Weapony." Makes sense. Biotics are powerul - people develop techniques to counter biotics.

You're also confusing Biotics with Telekenisis. Some advanced Biotics can use Biotics like Telekenisis (I.E. Stasis.) But most are using implants that help them opperate certain functions. 

Also, as a very important point, you should never justify altering gameplay mechanics based on lore. You break the game that way. You may upset people doing the other way around, but in the end if it provides a better experience, lore can be altered. Lore is not Gospel, fiction is mean to be flexible.

2-3 (this is generally the same complaint) ) Biotics effect everyone. Shielded characters are effected less, and for good reason. You do not see an Atlas getting lifted in the air by Singularity or Frozen by Stasis.

Furthermore for Guardians, becaue it is less focused, the Guradians can resist. Difference between pull and Singularity is the diffence between a powerful vaccume cleaner and a grapling hook. You'd think the Vaccum might be powerful enough, but in truth, there's more force behind the hook pull.

That said. Singularity works to remove shields if aimed correctly (at their backs) Hit a nearby target behind the guardian and not only will you disarm the shield, but you will also lift them.

Area pull removes shields off of multiple Guardians, and given the short cooldown of pull, it's no issue to simply throw another immediately after.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Overall I have to question your stance on the effectiveness of Biotics in general in this game. They're actually quite powerful and as the number of unprotected targets is far higher in this game than say. The introduction of more Biotic Explosion combinations makes Adepts, Sentinels and Vanguards all forces to be highly feared, and many of those classes have their own combinations for it.

Stasis/Throw or Stasis - Charge
Lift Shockwave - Charge or Pull - Charge
And lots of cross combinations that work with other classes as well.

I suggest you work on playing a power focused Adept with a Carniflex, regardless of the race, and play around with the combos a bit. Once you adjust to the new enemy and biotic mechanics I think you may side more with those who say (pretty acurately) that Biotics improved pretty greatly in ME3.

[Chriss0978]

I agree, if biotics worked against everything there would be no point in using any other class at all. Like Hyrist said, if you play an Adept with 200% recharge bonus, curve your powers and use biotic combos (Singularity + Warp, etc), I think your opinion will do a 360º turn around.

Hell, even in ME2 biotics were incredibly useful, even on Insanity.

Modifié par Chriss0978, 23 février 2012 - 09:58 .

[Hyrist]

Hell, even in ME2 biotics were incredibly useful, even on Insanity.

Playing an Adept as my Cannon Femshep, I can agree with this - on the condition that you keep one Tech. Garrus in particular is incredibly effective as an Adept's teammate.

Max out Warp, Singularity, and take the cooldowns path and a ME2 Adept can rip through any difficulty.

And the Adept in ME3 is even more powerful.

[Hyunsai]

I read some incorrect information here, so :

1 : Some enemies CAN dodge every biotic power that are not instant.

2 : Concussive shot fully force upgraded make guardians drop their shield for a moment.

------------------------------------------
Anyway, some powers are currently too much superior to others. The infamous Stasis and Overload.

Modifié par Hyunsai, 23 février 2012 - 10:11 .

[tomcruisejr]

Fenix Hero wrote...

I have had no problems with using biotics, Asari Adept is honestly wicked OP. Stasis works even with shield, statis bubble is amazing, followed by a warp or throw for a nice explosion that still affects them and their shields. Stasis also makes Guardians drop their shield.

I think most issues stem from people using Humanlol Adepts. Its even weaker than a caster specced Sentinel.

Modifié par tomcruisejr, 23 février 2012 - 10:15 .

[Chriss0978]

Hyrist wrote...

Hell, even in ME2 biotics were incredibly useful, even on Insanity.

Playing an Adept as my Cannon Femshep, I can agree with this - on the condition that you keep one Tech. Garrus in particular is incredibly effective as an Adept's teammate.

Max out Warp, Singularity, and take the cooldowns path and a ME2 Adept can rip through any difficulty.

And the Adept in ME3 is even more powerful.

Garrus and Miri for me, most people who complained about biotics on ME2 just don't take the time to learn how to use them.

[D.Kain]

Hyrist wrote... 
I suggest you work on playing a power focused Adept with a Carniflex, regardless of the race, and play around with the combos a bit. Once you adjust to the new enemy and biotic mechanics I think you may side more with those who say (pretty acurately) that Biotics improved pretty greatly in ME3. 

 

I am playing an asari adept with carnifex. I have no problems with winning, I beat gold 80% of the times, mostly depending on the team. 

All I was saying was that all other biotic powers suck compared to stasis. 

Hyrist wrote...  
Also, as a very important point, you should never justify altering gameplay mechanics based on lore. You break the game that way. You may upset people doing the other way around, but in the end if it provides a better experience, lore can be altered. Lore is not Gospel, fiction is mean to be flexible. 

  

Yeah I really want to make lore something that everything else emerges FROM. So that's why I also said that biotics would be better off using barrier as a resourse. They wouldn't be OP, because they would be squishy, but at the same time it all would make sense.

Arppis wrote...

Biotics are fine as it is. Otherwise I would like concusion shots have full effect trough shields and Guardians. 

There isn't much point at playing any other class if biotics just bash everything down.

Sure, why not? Make it stick to lore too, make concussive shots work like grenades, refill at the ammo stock, and have like 10, that punch through armor and shields. Also would make sense.

Tangster wrote...

Aim better. I find that if I throw a warp or throw towards the enemies feet, it fires down then arc up into their face/body even if they dive. Rarely misses, whereas if I throw the power when I'm aiming at their head/upper body they dive out of the way and the power arcs off to completely the wrong side.

It's not about aim, sometimes they dodge regardless. They make a roll animation and throw hits them in the head, but there is no damage done and they do not fly just because they made the roll. It just looks like a bug, but it isn't, it is a force mechanic of evassion. 

jreezy wrote...

Have you ever compained about how biotics functioned in Mass Effect?

Since ME2 all the time. 



Compiled into a simple overall response:

Sr.Prize wrote... 

I actually like that. Anything that makes the game harder I'm all for it.

 

Maybe we should make rocket launchers fire in a random direction instead of where we aim? That would certainly make it harder. Maybe also make medigel work 50% of times, so many ways to make the game harder!

[D.Kain]

Chriss0978 wrote...

Garrus and Miri for me, most people who complained about biotics on ME2 just don't take the time to learn how to use them.

It's not about that, it is just about it being retarded. Biotics don't work like they should work.

Here's an example:
They could make pistols almost do no damage to enemies, and make a power that made pistols the most powerful weapon ever, stronger than the widow headshot, when combined with the power. And I would be like wtf? It doesn't make sense! Why do pistols not damage enemies? Why pistols shoot stronger than a high caliber sniper rifle with a power? And you would say: just learn the mechanics! Don't shoot pistol when power is not working! This all makes the game more interesting! 

[Chriss0978]

D.Kain wrote...

I am playing an asari adept with carnifex. I have no problems with winning, I beat gold 80% of the times, mostly depending on the team. 

All I was saying was that all other biotic powers suck compared to stasis. 

I think that happens because Stasis is OP. Also, while you can certainly be the one who kills the most, the Adept is, first and foremost an support class.

Modifié par Chriss0978, 23 février 2012 - 10:41 .

[D.Kain]

Chriss0978 wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

I am playing an asari adept with carnifex. I have no problems with winning, I beat gold 80% of the times, mostly depending on the team. 

All I was saying was that all other biotic powers suck compared to stasis. 

I think that happens because Stasis is OP. Also, while you can certainly be the one who kills the most, the Adept is, first and foremost an support class.

So make it a support class with powerful biotics. Rocket launcher is a support weapon too, yet it kills Atlas in one hit. Unerstand what I mean? 

[Chriss0978]

D.Kain wrote...

Chriss0978 wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

I am playing an asari adept with carnifex. I have no problems with winning, I beat gold 80% of the times, mostly depending on the team. 

All I was saying was that all other biotic powers suck compared to stasis. 

I think that happens because Stasis is OP. Also, while you can certainly be the one who kills the most, the Adept is, first and foremost an support class.

So make it a support class with powerful biotics. Rocket launcher is a support weapon too, yet it kills Atlas in one hit. Unerstand what I mean? 

The thing is, If the changes you proposed are done, there would be no challenge when playing Biotic-dominant classes at all. You think biotics are not as effective as they should be, correct? I can see why you think that way, there is no absolute truth on this matter, biotics depend on others to be effective? on some situations yes, but having biotics bypassing shields would make it boring IMO, where is the challenge in that?

Modifié par Chriss0978, 23 février 2012 - 10:42 .

[D.Kain]

Chriss0978 wrote...

The thing is, If the changes you proposed are done, there would be no challenge when playing Biotic-dominant classes at all. You think biotics are not as effective as they should be, correct? I can see why you think that way, there is no absolute truth on this matter, biotics depend on others to be effective? on some situations yes, but having biotics bypassing shields would make it boring IMO, where is the challenge in that?

The challange would be having barrier drained everytime you do it, and taking a bullet. Also biotics have the lowest health. That way you don't go rage with biotics out of cover and without team mates. Make Vanguard Charge NOT recharge barrier, but make it and Nova stronger, and you have the ultimate high risk high reward too. 

Modifié par D.Kain, 23 février 2012 - 10:45 .

[Adanu]

sayersybrfc wrote...

Let me get this straight. Enemies can't dodge biotics, are affected by them instantly and shields no longer matter.

So basically you want to make the game easier?

They want biotics to actually be consistant with lore.

I want biotics to be less sucky without biotic explosions.

[Chriss0978]

D.Kain wrote...

Chriss0978 wrote...

The thing is, If the changes you proposed are done, there would be no challenge when playing Biotic-dominant classes at all. You think biotics are not as effective as they should be, correct? I can see why you think that way, there is no absolute truth on this matter, biotics depend on others to be effective? on some situations yes, but having biotics bypassing shields would make it boring IMO, where is the challenge in that?

The challange would be having barrier drained everytime you do it, and taking a bullet. Also biotics have the lowest health. That way you don't go rage with biotics out of cover and without team mates. Make Vanguard Charge NOT recharge barrier, but make it and Nova stronger, and you have the ultimate high risk high reward too. 

You just gave me my argument,  with the barrier drain you can't use biotics out of cover safely, yet when you are in cover (which, IMO you should be most of the time as an Adept), said drain can be ignored, this change will make Adepts more cautious, but that is not enough considering the changes you want for biotics.

If Charge doesn't recharge barrier, unless Nova and Charge are a LOT more powerful you are just sending Vanguards to death. The damage increase would have to be enormous to counter the lack of barrier-recharging AND the additional difficulties added by Gold, even then, said damage would make the Vanguard more invincible that he already is at Bronze and Silver.

Edit: Grammar.

Modifié par Chriss0978, 23 février 2012 - 10:52 .

[darkblade]

D.Kain wrote...

Stasis is awesome indeed, other biotic powers should get a buff imo. 

1) Make enemies stop dodging biotics. That is completely lore braking. Dodging a biotic throw ( or any other biotic power for that matter, would be like dodgin rain or wind. The projectile is just braking the fourth wall so that we can aim with biotics better, it's not really there. Or just make biotics fast as bullets, which will make sure they are not dodged.

2) Biotic attacks should affect guardian with his shield. Carrying a shield doesn't protect one from shifting gravity, both the guardian and the shield can be thrown by powers like throw/shockwave, also if warp can affect a whole freaking atlas, I don't see why it can't warp a guardian with his shield. Singularity doesn't freaking hit the guardian, I don't get why they back away as if they gor a bullet, singularity should pull the shield off the guardian and make it float, like pull. Also area pull should lift both guardian and the shield at once. Charge should also send guardian to the ground with his shield, and nova should go right through it. 

3) Ideally I would make shielded targets be affected by all biotics as well, as stasis does, and just make every biotic power drain a portion of barrier, like nova does. And make a toggle for biotic barrier, so that enemies drain health without draining the barrier, when I need to use biotics under fire.

Thoughts? 

Stasis is overpowering in that its the only biotic to function fully through defenses, so i dont think the rest need to be buffed up to that standard. Stasis needs to be nerfed to be weaker against enemies with defenese up.

1) Its not lore breaking at all, in Primary game canon it simply tells you what the effects are it doesnt really elaborate at all on how the effects get to the target though which has allowed Bioware to change the system as they wish without causing any retcons. The only example of a move explicitly stating how it gets to the target i can think of off the top of my head is singularity which says "launches a dark energy sphere". Wanna talk about lore breaking? Stasis break lore badly, Biotic barriers, Kinetic barriers and hardening should keep that. 

2) just consider it super protection...the tools, to beat them are everywhere.

3) i dont think i like that idea.

[D.Kain]

Chriss0978 wrote...

You just gave me my argument,  with the barrier drain you can't use biotics out of cover safely, yet when you are in cover (which, IMO you should be most of the time as an Adept), said drain can be ignored, this change will make Adepts more cautious, but that is not enough considering the changes you want for biotics.

If Charge doesn't recharge barrier, unless Nova and Charge are a LOT more powerful you are just sending Vanguards to death. The damage increase would have to be enormous to counter the lack of barrier-recharging AND the additional difficulties added by Gold, even then, said damage would make the Vanguard more invincible that he already is at Bronze and Silver.

Edit: Grammar.

I remember too many time when I needed to get out of cover because of a grenade, or because I need to be out of cover to have a line of sight to an enemy I am trying to damage. It would have to be real team shielding team work. Right now team just wants me to go an kill phantoms, and stick behind my back. 

You can make nova drain not full barrier, and make charge drain a portion of barrier, having a little left, but yes you would have to make those more powerful. And the vanguard won't be invincible. You always have enemies nearby, and you won't kill them all, you will have to kite and duck for cover. 

[D.Kain]

darkblade wrote...

Stasis is overpowering in that its the only biotic to function fully through defenses, so i dont think the rest need to be buffed up to that standard. Stasis needs to be nerfed to be weaker against enemies with defenese up.

1) Its not lore breaking at all, in Primary game canon it simply tells you what the effects are it doesnt really elaborate at all on how the effects get to the target though which has allowed Bioware to change the system as they wish without causing any retcons. The only example of a move explicitly stating how it gets to the target i can think of off the top of my head is singularity which says "launches a dark energy sphere". Wanna talk about lore breaking? Stasis break lore badly, Biotic barriers, Kinetic barriers and hardening should keep that. 

2) just consider it super protection...the tools, to beat them are everywhere.

3) i dont think i like that idea.

1) Canon is not mass effect games, canon is mass effect books, which came first and which explained biotics better, specially ascention. If shields protected from biotics shields would protect you from planet gravity as well.

2) I can beat them that is not a problem, and that is not what I am talking about here.

3) Fair enough. 

[Chriss0978]

D.Kain wrote...

Chriss0978 wrote...

You just gave me my argument,  with the barrier drain you can't use biotics out of cover safely, yet when you are in cover (which, IMO you should be most of the time as an Adept), said drain can be ignored, this change will make Adepts more cautious, but that is not enough considering the changes you want for biotics.

If Charge doesn't recharge barrier, unless Nova and Charge are a LOT more powerful you are just sending Vanguards to death. The damage increase would have to be enormous to counter the lack of barrier-recharging AND the additional difficulties added by Gold, even then, said damage would make the Vanguard more invincible that he already is at Bronze and Silver.

Edit: Grammar.

I remember too many time when I needed to get out of cover because of a grenade, or because I need to be out of cover to have a line of sight to an enemy I am trying to damage. It would have to be real team shielding team work. Right now team just wants me to go an kill phantoms, and stick behind my back. 

You can make nova drain not full barrier, and make charge drain a portion of barrier, having a little left, but yes you would have to make those more powerful. And the vanguard won't be invincible. You always have enemies nearby, and you won't kill them all, you will have to kite and duck for cover. 

Right, forgot about grenades I'll give you that. Still, most of the time you can just move from one to another or stay in a place they don't hit you at all.

Vanguards use Charge to Regen shields, if you make said power drain barriers, you will make a 360º turn in the way Vanguards play, potentially making both Charge and Nova very situation-specific powers, if not downright useless most of the time.

I said the Vanguard would be invincible in Silver and Bronze because the damage increase in both Nova and Charge would have to be very big to make Vanguards a viable option at gold, and said damage increase would make Bronze and Silver enemies die so fast you won't need to use cover at all.

[Hyrist]

Stasis has always been an overpowered ability when used correctly in all of the Mass Effect games.

And no, it does not need to be nerfed. Stasis functions in the "Powers before Guns." Playstyle of biotics. Pull and Throw also fit this mold as crowd controls.

The other abilities function the opposite way. If you do use them right away, you use them to peel off unprotected enemies so you can focus your fire on those protected. There is nothing wrong with this gameplay style as they added the combination system to work with this.

Shockwave, Warp, Throw all Combo. Pull and Singularity set up Combos. Sure, you may have to fire a few rounds first to take out shields (Disruptor rounds are your friend.) But you can still tear through enemies rather nicely.

And to further extrapolate on this, we've no idea how the other factions are going to function. We're making assumptions completely on Cerberus.

We may have to deal with far more armor/barrier based opponents in the other factions, which will make biotics such as Warp far more effective.

And you can't stasis an Atlas or a Turret - if this is any indication of Synthtics in general, you're going to HATE the Geth.

[Chriss0978]

Hyrist wrote...

Stasis has always been an overpowered ability when used correctly in all of the Mass Effect games.

And no, it does not need to be nerfed. Stasis functions in the "Powers before Guns." Playstyle of biotics. Pull and Throw also fit this mold as crowd controls.

The other abilities function the opposite way. If you do use them right away, you use them to peel off unprotected enemies so you can focus your fire on those protected. There is nothing wrong with this gameplay style as they added the combination system to work with this.

Shockwave, Warp, Throw all Combo. Pull and Singularity set up Combos. Sure, you may have to fire a few rounds first to take out shields (Disruptor rounds are your friend.) But you can still tear through enemies rather nicely.

And to further extrapolate on this, we've no idea how the other factions are going to function. We're making assumptions completely on Cerberus.

We may have to deal with far more armor/barrier based opponents in the other factions, which will make biotics such as Warp far more effective.

And you can't stasis an Atlas or a Turret - if this is any indication of Synthtics in general, you're going to HATE the Geth.

While I do agree with most of your points, I still think that Stasis should be nerfed, you were right when you said that Stasis was and still is overpowered when used correctly. The problem is that for you to use Stasis wrong (at least in ME3) you have to want to do it wrong, even if some people use it wrong without meaning it, It's incredibly fast to learn how to use it effectively, to change that is to change the way the power works, which is unecessary when you can make it a little bit weaker.