262 réponses à ce sujet

[Delta 57 Dash]

Biotics are fine IMO. Singularity and Throw have a very short cooldown, so try hitting them with that before firing anything bigger to try and trigger their dodge.

[Endplanets]

I strongly agree with #3. I don't get how in the lore having a shield/barrier/armor prevents gravity from affecting someone. I would tolerate if shielded/barrier/armored enemies were affected less by biotic powers.
As it is I don't even touch the human biotics because they are powerless against everything but assault troopers.

[SpaceAdmiral]

You basically want the adept to be able to solo everything?

[Wulfram]

Hyrist wrote...

And you can't stasis an Atlas or a Turret - if this is any indication of Synthtics in general, you're going to HATE the Geth.

It's the armour which lets the resist the stasis I believe, and I really don't believe they're going to have a whole enemy type with armour instead of health.

If ME2 is any guide, the Geth will generally have shielding and health so Stasis will work on them.  Primes and Armatures will have armour and will be problematic.  But Throw-Warp bombs are a good back up.

[Hyrist]

On principle, I don't agree in downward adjustments, especially in Co-op. It detracts from gameplay and usually causes more arguments than agreements.

At this juncture I'd say "Wait." Again, there may be more enemies immune or resistant to Stasis as an ability, and even if not, not all situations are going to call for it. (Using a Stasis bubble to try to capture two-3 heavier Brutes when a hoard of husks are coming at you comes to mind as a bad idea. Where as using a Singularity to sweep up the husks together to blow them up sounds very nice.)

We have given examples in ME2 that certain enemy groupings tend to lean against certain classes. (The Tech Branch of Eclipse were nasty to Biotics while Tecs had major problems with the Collectors.)

Some Biotics, such as stasis, work very well against Cerberus. That may not carry over across all factions or all situations. It just happens to be very useful now. Even if doses work the same way across the board 'effectively' wise. The enemy compositions will most likely differ as well.

And again, the other biotic abilities do not suck in the least bit. Throw spam, Pull spam. Using singularities to cut off choke points (even against resistant enemies, they still stagger when trying to walk into the field.) And shockwave is HIGHLY underestimated.

People just take the path of least resistance and don't explore the other options very much. That said, as outlying players who don't wan't to spend their game playing Asari will find the tactics that work best for them.

[gunsagogo]

I find singularity to be pretty much worthless. nova is fine as is, its meant more to just off balance the enemy so you can get a few melee's or another charge in there.

otherwise I think the unlimited ammo/ability to stay behind cover 24/7 to balance out adepts.

[D.Kain]

jreezy wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Have you ever compained about how biotics functioned in Mass Effect?

Since ME2 all the time. 

So not Mass Effect then, which is when you should've.

It was closest to lore out of all 3. 

[darkblade]

D.Kain wrote...

darkblade wrote...

Stasis is overpowering in that its the only biotic to function fully through defenses, so i dont think the rest need to be buffed up to that standard. Stasis needs to be nerfed to be weaker against enemies with defenese up.

1) Its not lore breaking at all, in Primary game canon it simply tells you what the effects are it doesnt really elaborate at all on how the effects get to the target though which has allowed Bioware to change the system as they wish without causing any retcons. The only example of a move explicitly stating how it gets to the target i can think of off the top of my head is singularity which says "launches a dark energy sphere". Wanna talk about lore breaking? Stasis break lore badly, Biotic barriers, Kinetic barriers and hardening should keep that. 

2) just consider it super protection...the tools, to beat them are everywhere.

3) i dont think i like that idea.

1) Canon is not mass effect games, canon is mass effect books, which came first and which explained biotics better, specially ascention. If shields protected from biotics shields would protect you from planet gravity as well.

2) I can beat them that is not a problem, and that is not what I am talking about here.

3) Fair enough. 

1) The time difference is irrelevant....The game wasnt made FROM the books series, the Books were made to COINCIDE with the games. So unless you have some kind of statement from bioware im using the games as primary, and books as secondary or equal with lower priority at best.

-also no it wouldnt, shielding and biotics are both created by eezo and mass effect fields they interact. That was the entire point of the hardenening upgrades. The hardsuits have defense agaist biotic.

2) I didnt say you did, just that the tools to get around it are in the game. The point of the shield is to make them hard to kill from the front making biotics just ignore that is flatout ridiculous. Its already stupid that stasis works through biotic barriers and kinetic barrier. If you have to try and rationalize it just pretend that the shields have hardening weave.

3) ok

[D.Kain]

Chriss0978 wrote...

Right, forgot about grenades I'll give you that. Still, most of the time you can just move from one to another or stay in a place they don't hit you at all.

Vanguards use Charge to Regen shields, if you make said power drain barriers, you will make a 360º turn in the way Vanguards play, potentially making both Charge and Nova very situation-specific powers, if not downright useless most of the time.

I said the Vanguard would be invincible in Silver and Bronze because the damage increase in both Nova and Charge would have to be very big to make Vanguards a viable option at gold, and said damage increase would make Bronze and Silver enemies die so fast you won't need to use cover at all.

You don't get it. You can't spam biotics if they take away barrier. You have only health left then, and it doesn't recharge. Here's then thing: You get your head out of cover to get a throw at the enemy, but nemesis fires at you. If you don't toggle barriers off to get the throw, then nemesis shoots off your barrier, and you don't cast that throw, because you don't have barrier to cast it. But if you toggled barrier off, so you can cast throw you get killed by nemesis, because you have only health. Same for all enemy groups. You have to be very careful about soroundings.

[Wulfram]

I think you'd have more chance of convincing people that Human Adepts need a buff. Biotics in general are fine.

[Hyrist]

Lore is not Gospel. Especially involving gaming lore.

I find using such as a defense to all arguments be rather infuriating. Especially concerning powers. Gameplay superceeds lore. Otherwise you could have just followed Jack around and let her loose as she tore apart most the collectors single handedly.

[xhydeffx]

I HATE guardians. Since when does a metal shield block literally everything. I can throw a grenade behind one and nothing happens -__-

[D.Kain]

darkblade wrote...

1) The time difference is irrelevant....The game wasnt made FROM the books series, the Books were made to COINCIDE with the games. So unless you have some kind of statement from bioware im using the games as primary, and books as secondary or equal with lower priority at best.

-also no it wouldnt, shielding and biotics are both created by eezo and mass effect fields they interact. That was the entire point of the hardenening upgrades. The hardsuits have defense agaist biotic.

2) I didnt say you did, just that the tools to get around it are in the game. The point of the shield is to make them hard to kill from the front making biotics just ignore that is flatout ridiculous. Its already stupid that stasis works through biotic barriers and kinetic barrier. If you have to try and rationalize it just pretend that the shields have hardening weave.

3) ok

1) I use mass effect games for lore too, but only cutscenes, those are consistant with lore more or less. Like Samara and Morinth action, Jack prison brake, Liara/Vasir stuff etc.

Read about the shields. They are always configured to protect against specific things. Battle shields are configured to protect from objects that travel at great speeds, that is also why melee attacks should ignore shields, unlike barrier which protect from everything, but exausts the biotic. 

2) I like it when things are hard to kill without it looking silly. It's like TOR, a topless guy that is fightning with fists needs to take 20+ hits from a lightsaber. Which really should have ended in one hit. Just make it realistic, make the guy dodge hits then, and make guardians be biotics without a shield, but holding a biotic barrier or something. 

[Hyrist]

Then you missed with the grenade. I've no trouble nailing them with Cluster Grenades from behind.

Toss over head against a wall. If they have open air behind them, re-position or get an ally to go behind/pull them.

Just make it realistic, make the guy dodge hits then, and make guardians be biotics without a shield, but holding a biotic barrier or something.

Realisim in fiction...

Sheppad would never have been revived, and even if he did, he would have likely died in the first encounter with the reaper invasion on earth. Reapers would have prioritized targeting the larger, more offensive ship than sniping carrier shuttles.

Again, you cannot sacrafice gameplay for lore. Lore is ment to be flexible, gamplay is to enjoy gameplay, not to adhere to lore.

If you can ignore the issues with ME2's or ME's power scopes an pay attention to only the cutscene, then you need to do so for ME3 and ToR as well. Otherwise, you're creating a double-standard.

Modifié par Hyrist, 24 février 2012 - 12:07 .

[D.Kain]

Hyrist wrote...

Lore is not Gospel. Especially involving gaming lore.

I find using such as a defense to all arguments be rather infuriating. Especially concerning powers. Gameplay superceeds lore. Otherwise you could have just followed Jack around and let her loose as she tore apart most the collectors single handedly.

Gameplay and lore can work together if you really try. And yes Jack can slaughter a lot of collectors, but she is a biotc, and biotics get tired. She would exaust her limit half way, and wouldn't be able to fire anymore. 

[Chriss0978]

Hyrist wrote...

On principle, I don't agree in downward
adjustments, especially in Co-op. It detracts from gameplay and usually
causes more arguments than agreements.

At this juncture I'd say
"Wait." Again, there may be more enemies immune or resistant to Stasis
as an ability, and even if not, not all situations are going to call for
it. (Using a Stasis bubble to try to capture two-3 heavier Brutes when a
hoard of husks are coming at you comes to mind as a bad idea. Where as
using a Singularity to sweep up the husks together to blow them up
sounds very nice.)

We have given examples in ME2 that certain
enemy groupings tend to lean against certain classes. (The Tech Branch
of Eclipse were nasty to Biotics while Tecs had major problems with the
Collectors.)

Some Biotics, such as stasis, work very well against
Cerberus. That may not carry over across all factions or all
situations. It just happens to be very useful now. Even if doses work
the same way across the board 'effectively' wise. The enemy compositions
will most likely differ as well.

And again, the other biotic
abilities do not suck in the least bit. Throw spam, Pull spam. Using
singularities to cut off choke points (even against resistant enemies,
they still stagger when trying to walk into the field.) And shockwave is
HIGHLY underestimated.

People just take the path of least
resistance and don't explore the other options very much. That said, as
outlying players who don't wan't to spend their game playing Asari will
find the tactics that work best for them.

Yeah, I'm making arguments based on Cerberus enemies, so waiting for the full game before asking for nerfing Stasis is probably for the best.

Many think that all you should need to do is throw the power at the enemy's face and expect instant-kills (a bit of an exaggeration here), they don't even try to explore another way to use said powers, the lack of diversity in the way biotics are used is the main reason for biotic-related complaints.

gunsagogo wrote...

I find singularity to be pretty much worthless. nova is fine as is, its meant more to just off balance the enemy so you can get a few melee's or another charge in there.

otherwise I think the unlimited ammo/ability to stay behind cover 24/7 to balance out adepts.

Singularity can (as Hyrist said) cut off choke points, bring enemies out of cover if you can't flank them, and a few other uses out there.

Nova can do that and kill (or close) any who survived the Charge, which, at least on Silver, on which many enemies can survive a single Charge.

Edit: Grammar and additional points on singularity usefulness.

Modifié par Chriss0978, 24 février 2012 - 12:06 .

[D.Kain]

Chriss0978 wrote...
Yeah, I'm making arguments based on Cerberus enemies, so waiting for the full game before asking for nerfing Stasis is probably for the best.

Many think that all you should need to do is throw the power at the enemy's face and expect instant-kills (a bit of an exaggeration here), they don't even try to explore another way to use said powers, the lack of diversity in the way biotics are used is the main reason for biotic-related complaints.

Sounds to me the same as: 

Many think that all you should need to do is to shoot a bullet from a sniper rifle at the enemy's face and expect instant-kills (a bit of an exaggeration here), they don't even try to explore another way to use said rifle, the lack of diversity in the way rifles are used is the main reason for rifle-related complaints. 

Does that sound ok to you?

Modifié par D.Kain, 24 février 2012 - 12:11 .

[Hyrist]

Chriss0978 wrote...

Singularity can (as Hyrist said) cut off choke points, bring enemies out of cover if you can't flank them, and a few other uses out there.

Nova can do that and kill (or close) any who survived the Charge, which, at least on Silver, on which many enemies can survive a single Charge.

Edit: Grammar and additional points on singularity usefulness.

Issue with Nova is that it is close range, and sacrafices Barriers upon use, as well as Barriers being dependant FOR their use. 

Yes, you can spec to half the Barrier Cost, but at a 40% damage penalty, often MORE of a penalty because you risk taking hits between Novas which detracts from your total barrier damage.

Singulartiy sets up biotic explosions which can do static, yet similar damage for only a sacrafice part of Singularty's duration. Given cooldown reductions, this can mean frequent, powerful biotic explosions depending on what you use to detonate.

In this respect, Singularity does more for less risk. It's far form useless.

[D.Kain]

Hyrist wrote...

Chriss0978 wrote...

Singularity can (as Hyrist said) cut off choke points, bring enemies out of cover if you can't flank them, and a few other uses out there.

Nova can do that and kill (or close) any who survived the Charge, which, at least on Silver, on which many enemies can survive a single Charge.

Edit: Grammar and additional points on singularity usefulness.

Issue with Nova is that it is close range, and sacrafices Barriers upon use, as well as Barriers being dependant FOR their use. 

Yes, you can spec to half the Barrier Cost, but at a 40% damage penalty, often MORE of a penalty because you risk taking hits between Novas which detracts from your total barrier damage.

Singulartiy sets up biotic explosions which can do static, yet similar damage for only a sacrafice part of Singularty's duration. Given cooldown reductions, this can mean frequent, powerful biotic explosions depending on what you use to detonate.

In this respect, Singularity does more for less risk. It's far form useless.

Making awesome points here for making all biotic powers depend on barrier. 

[Chriss0978]

D.Kain wrote...

Chriss0978 wrote...
Yeah, I'm making arguments based on Cerberus enemies, so waiting for the full game before asking for nerfing Stasis is probably for the best.

Many think that all you should need to do is throw the power at the enemy's face and expect instant-kills (a bit of an exaggeration here), they don't even try to explore another way to use said powers, the lack of diversity in the way biotics are used is the main reason for biotic-related complaints.

Sounds to me the same as: 

Many think that all you should need to do is to shoot a bullet from a sniper rifle at the enemy's face and expect instant-kills (a bit of an exaggeration here), they don't even try to explore another way to use said rifle, the lack of diversity in the way rifles are used is the main reason for rifle-related complaints. 

Does that sound ok to you?

That's different, rifles can deal with barriers, armor and health directly. Some biotics need assistance from something else before they can be used to their full potential, while others can be used without said assistance, if only someone tried to curve a singularity for it to hit a Guardian's back, for example. If biotics could simply negate protections all the challenge is gone when biotics are used, I don't see that as a viable option, nor do I see any way to counter that other than making you disable protections before you can use biotic powers.

[Hyrist]

D.Kain wrote...
Sounds to me the same as: 

Many think that all you should need to do is to shoot a bullet from a sniper rifle at the enemy's face and expect instant-kills (a bit of an exaggeration here), they don't even try to explore another way to use said rifle, the lack of diversity in the way rifles are used is the main reason for rifle-related complaints. 

Does that sound ok to you?

Not only does that sound ok with me, but you're using apoor analogy.

For example.

In the terms of Snipers, Snipers have their own bonuses in mods, much as powers evolve in specific ways. People will mostly spec snipers for that "Exploding Melon" type damage, which really benefits the Widow the most.

But do you need to nerf Widow because it does what it intends, and the Mantis isn't the exact same power type?

No, you build the two differently to their strenghts and use them to their strengts. Just because more people prefer to use the Widow does not mean every weapon should function to the Widow's standards.

Same with Stasis and other Biotics.


The problem we have in experimenting with abilities as opposed to experimenting on weapons is that mods can be exchanged on the fly. Right now, we can't respec powers to try combinations beyond our first guesses. Sasis, like the Widow, Carniflex, etc, are all obvious power choices, because they are famous and word spread about them quickily. The game is going to be out for a while before we can make an accurate assessment about other weapons and powers.

[gunsagogo]

Chriss0978 wrote...

Hyrist wrote...

On principle, I don't agree in downward
adjustments, especially in Co-op. It detracts from gameplay and usually
causes more arguments than agreements.

At this juncture I'd say
"Wait." Again, there may be more enemies immune or resistant to Stasis
as an ability, and even if not, not all situations are going to call for
it. (Using a Stasis bubble to try to capture two-3 heavier Brutes when a
hoard of husks are coming at you comes to mind as a bad idea. Where as
using a Singularity to sweep up the husks together to blow them up
sounds very nice.)

We have given examples in ME2 that certain
enemy groupings tend to lean against certain classes. (The Tech Branch
of Eclipse were nasty to Biotics while Tecs had major problems with the
Collectors.)

Some Biotics, such as stasis, work very well against
Cerberus. That may not carry over across all factions or all
situations. It just happens to be very useful now. Even if doses work
the same way across the board 'effectively' wise. The enemy compositions
will most likely differ as well.

And again, the other biotic
abilities do not suck in the least bit. Throw spam, Pull spam. Using
singularities to cut off choke points (even against resistant enemies,
they still stagger when trying to walk into the field.) And shockwave is
HIGHLY underestimated.

People just take the path of least
resistance and don't explore the other options very much. That said, as
outlying players who don't wan't to spend their game playing Asari will
find the tactics that work best for them.

Yeah, I'm making arguments based on Cerberus enemies, so waiting for the full game before asking for nerfing Stasis is probably for the best.

Many think that all you should need to do is throw the power at the enemy's face and expect instant-kills (a bit of an exaggeration here), they don't even try to explore another way to use said powers, the lack of diversity in the way biotics are used is the main reason for biotic-related complaints.

gunsagogo wrote...

I find singularity to be pretty much worthless. nova is fine as is, its meant more to just off balance the enemy so you can get a few melee's or another charge in there.

otherwise I think the unlimited ammo/ability to stay behind cover 24/7 to balance out adepts.

Singularity can (as Hyrist said) cut off choke points, bring enemies out of cover if you can't flank them, and a few other uses out there.

Nova can do that and kill (or close) any who survived the Charge, which, at least on Silver, on which many enemies can survive a single Charge.

Edit: Grammar and additional points on singularity usefulness.

true, but that normally only works with bronze. In silver and gold nearly all units have shields or barriers, and compared to stasis (which affects everything except atlas) its severely underpowered. completely agree with you on the nova


edit
read the rest of the replies, above doesn't seem like a sufficient explanation.
I realize stasis and singularities are 2 very different powers, with 2 very different strengths, but lets say even if you had a friend with overload. The main power singularity has (affecting more than one unit) is still useless, as its going to take an additional 2-3 seconds for the overload to take out the shields of the other unit.

Modifié par gunsagogo, 24 février 2012 - 12:26 .

[darkblade]

Read about the shields. They are always configured to protect against specific things. Battle shields are configured to protect from objects that travel at great speeds, that is also why melee attacks should ignore shields, unlike barrier which protect from everything, but exausts the biotic.

I read about the shields, which is why we are having this back and fourth. I know that the Kinetic barriers dont do anything for biotics, but the barriers and hard suits do and to not drive the coders insane bioware has armor, shielding, and barriers have the same gameplay properties except what they are weak against. Them giving shields biotic resistance is mostly game balance, without it moves like stasis are crazy powerful.

So basically they can either let Shields block biotics or bring back hardening.

As for the melee strikes thing thats just gameplay balance. no arguing that.

2) I like it when things are hard to kill without it looking silly. It's like TOR, a topless guy that is fightning with fists needs to take 20+ hits from a lightsaber. Which really should have ended in one hit. Just make it realistic, make the guy dodge hits then, and make guardians be biotics without a shield, but holding a biotic barrier or something.

just pretend the shields have hardening weave, its not like cerberus cant afford it.

Modifié par darkblade, 24 février 2012 - 12:23 .

[Chriss0978]

Hyrist wrote...

Issue with Nova is that it is close range, and sacrafices Barriers upon use, as well as Barriers being dependant FOR their use. 

Yes, you can spec to half the Barrier Cost, but at a 40% damage penalty, often MORE of a penalty because you risk taking hits between Novas which detracts from your total barrier damage.

Singulartiy sets up biotic explosions which can do static, yet similar damage for only a sacrafice part of Singularty's duration. Given cooldown reductions, this can mean frequent, powerful biotic explosions depending on what you use to detonate.

In this respect, Singularity does more for less risk. It's far form useless.

Said 40% penalty can be negated if you spec Nova right as well. Then you could use just 1 Nova and keep half your shields for the same damage. Of course, it can be said that you lose the 40% bonus damage you could have, but then it would, just like the changes the OP wants, make Nova way too good.

I agree, Singularity is far from useless, and in the correct situations can do a lot more than Nova with no risks at all.