266 réponses à ce sujet

[Hyrist]

Most major renegade choices involved alienating or killing potential Allies.

Methinks Renegades screwed themselves over.

[GIJooTheWarHero]

Fist turns out to be the one responsible for activating the Reapers in dark space after you let him go in ME1.

Modifié par GIJooTheWarHero, 24 février 2012 - 03:28 .

[phimseto]

If every renegade choice from 1 or 2 has a mainly negative implication in ME3 while paragon choices are mainly good, I will consider the whole "your story across three games" experiment a failure. There have to be at least a few major choices (the Collector Base, the renegade Geth virus, the Genophage cure, etc.) where going renegade is the more beneficial choice and the the paragon choice ends up blowing up in your face. If that doesn't happen, then, wow...after all the hype, so disappointing.

[Rabbi Satan]

phimseto wrote...

If every renegade choice from 1 or 2 has a mainly negative implication in ME3 while paragon choices are mainly good, I will consider the whole "your story across three games" experiment a failure. There have to be at least a few major choices (the Collector Base, the renegade Geth virus, the Genophage cure, etc.) where going renegade is the more beneficial choice and the the paragon choice ends up blowing up in your face. If that doesn't happen, then, wow...after all the hype, so disappointing.

Well, considering that the Mass Effect franchise is mainstream, they cannot afford to deviate too far from the general zeitgeist (No, not the ****ty movie), which is mostly reflected in the feel-good Paragon choices throughout the series having a much more lasting (Positive) impact. Smaller scale productions, written towards
renegade/"morally grey"/esoteric audiences tend to do better in this regard, as they're not constrained by pandering to the majority. Pretty much the same analogy when it comes to movies: Big Blockbusters vs. Art/Indie Movies.

I've only played a little bit of the first Witcher,  and actually have the box of the 2nd, which I haven't installed yet, but I've heard good things about both - especially the writing and the greyness of the morality in the world. But from what I've experienced, the Witcher's a good example of the morally grey in video gaming. Mass Effect does try, and achieves this a little bit, but I'm still waiting for a good, Sci-Fi game and universe where it's not simply the Light vs. Dark Side. Who knows, maybe ME3 will surprise me, and I hope it does.

Modifié par Rabbi Satan, 24 février 2012 - 03:59 .

[Eclipse merc]

Nah, I don't think it'll be like that. Hopefully it'll be evenly balanced so they don't screw renegades or paragons over.

[Candidate 88766]

Gruzmog wrote...

Destroyed the Rachni. No dialogue with Asari. Actual effect on ME2 this has? None.
Killed the Council. No longer able to be a Spectre. Actual effect on ME2 this has? None.

No matter what choices you made in ME1, the best ending in ME2 is possible. Making all renegade or all paragon choices in ME1 doesn't affect how difficult it is to get the best ending. There is no negative impact for renegade choices, and no positive impact for paragon choices.

Paragons get a few more dialogues because they saved more people, but these don't impact anything. They provide no benefit and no bonus.

Actually you can become a spectre again if you let the council die. Atleast with Anderson as councilor. But that is beside the point. Even if it does not effect you're gameplay as such, with a dead council:
- humanity is distrusted by the other races
- the citadel fleet is slow in rebuilding
- The new council is busy with itsself instead of the galaxy

Seems to me like a bad start point for ME3 compared to were you are if you safe em. Sad thing is my main char didn't even kill them on purpose to be bad ass. I was just scared that when the citadel opened there wouldn't be enough ships to take sovereign down in time. Was perhaps a tad bit too convinced by the story that I could fail .

It would be neat if some risks you take as paragon would backfire aswell though. Like blowing up the collector base, but more then just that one. But not the Rachni! The Rachni are my sweet pets that I am gonna feed reapers

P.S. The asari mercenary ended up dying even on my paragon chars. She reached for her bloody gun after claiming she was innocent! I shot her in reflex with the renegade intervention.

But none of those things actually affect ME2, which is what whoever I initially quoted said. 

Obviously they'll have more impact in ME3, and seeing as one of the main goals if uniting as many species as possible it makes sense that renegades will have a harder time. You'd think that'd make it more satisfying.

[phimseto]

"The Witcher" is absolutely suburb in that regard, and I can't wait to start playing the sequel next month.

I also have to disagree with you.  One of the most asinine features in a game was being king in "Fable III".  Every single choice as monarch that you made was "save the orphans" or "bake them into pies", with obvious ramifications for each. If that's the kind of choice system they think they need to offer, then they might as well not offer one at all. It's as pointless as the non-choice "But Thou Must" choices of JRPGs.

Modifié par phimseto, 24 février 2012 - 04:07 .

[woods26]

I wish that Paragon wasn't universally the "correct" option. It doesn't make you actually think about what your doing because you already know the Paragon choice will always lead to the best outcome.

[Farbautisonn]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Farbautisonn: I don't have a degree to throw around as authority (and I'm glad you do, opens a lot of doors - very useful) - but I have read quite a lot of the classical philosophical and religious texts on morality.

-Grats? Personally I prefer to have discourses with people who do not have degrees or who are "Amateur experts" in fields they did not study for. If said people have some inkling of the use of logical deduction and empirical data.

You say people see grey and think it's "black" because they don't have perspective.

-Yes?

I would say the same toward "white" - I've never met anyone I would consider a truly morally (whether through a religious or secular methodology) good person - though I have met "some" who struggle to be that way.

-. "Truely moral and good" is first and foremost a logical fallacy. Morals and ethics vary across nations, times, socialgroups and economic standing, as does "goodness". I do not buy into absolutes. I have met many people who try to be better.... but good people? In my humble experience, the difference between good and bad, is circumstancial at best.

Please don't think you're actually sterling white - especially if you know you're not pitch black.

-You read that into what I wrote? Really? How did you manage that? I know my motivations and my actions rather well. I am by no means white. Im actually more gray than white. Some would likely say more black than white. But again, Im really interested into where I proposed I was "sterling white" as it were?

It's interesting you say people can't see real pitch black because they're so swaddled.

-Why? Is this something you'd care to elaborate on, or just something you needed to get off your chest? 

I'd suggest that many cannot also see sterling white because they're apathetic, complacent, and above all - so prideful and arrogant that they think anything they do MUST be good - because being wrong requires self-reflection and criticism - and perhaps most frighteningly of all for even the most progressive person - change.

-I suppose this would be your elaboration, but it I personally believe it fails. What you describe is zealotry. The acts and thoughts of a pharisee. Those are allways blind to white, gray and black. There is no leeway, only absolutes. And they are still "swaddled" in the sense that they only face one reality. Their own. Their own personal white. Or black. Or just one shade of gray. And these people do exist.

And again you assume too much. That a person who sees he is wrong aspires to change. That is a mistaken assumption. In my humble experience plenty of people know very well when they do wrong, but try to rationalize their way out of it. As if that somehow buys absolution. "Im doing this, but at least Im not doing that." or "Im doing that but he did this, so Im morally/ethically/culturally/religiously/socially ok in comparison". Or "My spiritual/philosophical/logical guide and/or master told me to do so, so I am in the clear". They still believe themselves to be "white". 

Also I am a bit baffled. What is a "progressive" person? To me "progressive" is a rubber stamp that can be applied at will, more or less like "Real" or "true".

Modifié par Farbautisonn, 24 février 2012 - 05:09 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Arcian wrote...

Farbautisonn wrote...

CuddilyEvil93 wrote...

It's called karma. Act like an ass all the time and she'll bite you in yours.

-And yet strangely, somehow, most of the famous of politics, statebuilding and finance have been more or less rat bastards that died peacefully in their beds. Go figure.

>Reality
>Fictional world
Choose one.

Fictional world grounded in/based on reality?

[phimseto]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Also I am a bit baffled. What is a "progressive" person? To me "progressive" is a rubber stamp that can be applied at will, more or less like "Real" or "true".

That's the best thing I have read all day.

[DarkDragon777]

m14567 wrote...

Wrex: You should have killed me when you had the chance. Shepard.

> No

[GodWood]

Arcian wrote...

Farbautisonn wrote...
-And yet strangely, somehow, most of the famous of politics, statebuilding and finance have been more or less rat bastards that died peacefully in their beds. Go figure.

>Reality
>Fictional world
Choose one.

lol Arcian fails history.

[Lucky Mame]

Either saving the Rachni or rewriting the Heretics are bound to be "bad choices." I'll be sad if not. Even though I'm hoping I did the right decisions, I'll be upset if none of my decisions will backfire.

[BatmanPWNS]

The leak suggests it'll be a bit better than ME2 but it still sucks compare to those paragon choices.

[DXLelouch15]

some renagades saved the council on purpose just so they could say i Told you so in Mass Effect 3

[chester013]

I think it adds realism, if you're an **** all the time things don't always go your way.

Likewise if your a goody two-shoes pushover, someone's going to crap in your cereal.

I play paragon for the most part, but I always:

Push the merc out the window
Shoot that Asari eclipse merc (Elnora or something? Who cares she's toast)
Beat the crap out of Elias Kelham

Paragon or not, those felt right to me. But I'm getting off topic, why should Renegade not be different to Paragon? Would be pointless if these choices had no consequences, but also it won't be like you'll be greeted with a blank screen that says "reapers win lol that'll teach you to be nicer!" and can't actually finish the game.

[Naughty Bear]

DXLelouch15 wrote...

some renagades saved the council on purpose just so they could say i Told you so in Mass Effect 3

Renegades think ahead. We do good acts just to be a douche, i let Fist live so i could taunt him in ME 2.

[DXLelouch15]

nice guys finish last

[royard]

G3rman wrote...

Being a pure Renegade and pure Paragon isn't smart to begin with.

What are you talking about?  They FORCE you to be pure one way or the other.  How are you going to solve the loyalty conflicts if you don't have really high morality points in either? 

[MrAtomica]

royard wrote...

G3rman wrote...

Being a pure Renegade and pure Paragon isn't smart to begin with.

What are you talking about?  They FORCE you to be pure one way or the other.  How are you going to solve the loyalty conflicts if you don't have really high morality points in either? 

Gibbed. This is my ritual upon the start of every playthrough of any Bioware game. Give myself full morality to both sides. Why? Because nothing solves the argument of Paragon vs. Renegade like successfully being both.

[A SILENT EMU]

Yeah I really don't like how paragon always seems to be the right decision in this game. Sure you can be a nice guy but sometimes you have to step up and make the hard decisions or get tough with someone if time is an issue. Being nice isn't always the best method.

[xsdob]

It's not about being a renegade or paragon, it's about being smart, sticking to your principles, and being a huge jerk.

I have 2 shepards, a paragon with a small amount of renegade choices(Destroyed geth, because sapient creatures shouldn't be indoctrinated to join my cause.) And an almost full renegade from mass effect 1 who did all the main choices that make you a paragon(Saved zhu's hope, spared rachni, persuaded wrex), all on the first playthrough. But even though I did all those things, I was still a 90% renegade just doing things I would normally do as a rougeish shepard.

I way I played my renegade was I choice to be cold and a little harsh most of the time, focusing on the mission at hand and worrying about others only if I had the luxury. Being an earthborn ruthless, I did what was necessary to get the job done, but only when it was necessary. When I could intimidate someone into doing what I said, I did it, but I didn't go all gun ho to kill everyone just for kicks. I saved the zhu's hope colinist because I refused to do exogenni's dirty work and clean up their mess, basically destroying the evidence of what they did at feros. I spared the rachni because of how valuable they could be in the future, and I couldn't bring myself to kill an entire species like that. And I saved wrex because my shepard had come to call him a good freind, and tried to make sure it didn't have to end in bloodshed. The only choice I was ambiguous about was wheather to save the council or focus on soverign, I made 2 saves where I did both with the justification being that I was either willing to sacrifice the alliance fleet to ensure that the reapers didn't succed in wiping out the galactic goverment, or sacrificing the council to destroy the source of threat.

And that's how the game should be played, as the player wants to play it, not by the morality that the choice falls in. Renegade does not equal a automatic bad***, and paragon does not equal the automatic good guy, its actually picking the options that sound like a good guy's answer or a bad*** that make you those things. Any other way of doing it gets either a person who's too soft or too cold.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

The brotherhood is desecrated, scorned and disglorified ...