266 réponses à ce sujet

[illsteward]

So, it can also be made so that the Renegade choices will end up being better path. Let me demonstrate (ME1 only):
1) Paragon starting point = due to "saving" the body of Martha Baathiri, new technologies are delayed. New possible shields will be available only once you made a LOT of allies or something like that. The Council is not so keen on helping the Earth. After all, you are a Spectre, responsible fully for yourself. Make yourself free to get the Galaxy out of the crap you summoned on them. Since you saved the Rachni, you have new ally, but one that will make it really difficult to persuade others to follow. However, Zhu's Hope has found out how to use Thorian in order to slow down Prothean husks - they used Thorian to modify the nerve gas to stop Husks instead of Thorain Slaves. That's the only useful ME1 benefit you get. Suit yourself.

2) Same choices, Renegade approach = The body of Martha Baathiri led to discovery of new, fantastic shields able to combat not only physical weapons of Collectors, but also the Reaper indoctrination, making it possible to save hundreds of thousands from it. New "anti-indoctrination" shields available from start, since the attack on Citadel speeded the research, but it still took almost five years to complete. The Council (all-human) is very afraid, because they understand Earth was the most secured base of the most militant race in Citadel Space, save for Turians. Because of this, they grant you the title of Spectre and next to unlimited resources once you meet them. Killing Rachni made other races certain that you will not hesitate and that your mission is more important to you than anything in the whole universe, including genocide. For some, they will join you because they fear you. For others, they will join you, because you show power they like. The only downside is that destruction of Zhu's Hope brought the Reapers new outpost, and opened a new frontier in the war to ensure. Meh.

[Farbautisonn]

phimseto wrote...

Farbautisonn wrote...

Also I am a bit baffled. What is a "progressive" person? To me "progressive" is a rubber stamp that can be applied at will, more or less like "Real" or "true".

That's the best thing I have read all day.

-cheers

[Yakko77]

If you think the best way of saving the galaxy is being a colossal jerk but "getting the job done" then don't be shocked when you get a jerk ending.

[Cakefish]

Ha just mirroring reality in our society. If you treat people like dirt, you yourself are treated as such.

[Farbautisonn]

Yakko77 wrote...

If you think the best way of saving the galaxy is being a colossal jerk but "getting the job done" then don't be shocked when you get a jerk ending.

-"Jerk endings" in real life usually end up with the "Jerk" getting it his way. Thats why any mans military never fights "Fair". You dont fight an enemy army corps if you can drive them through a waffle iron of b-52 strikes. Its not "fair". But It sure is effective.

Fair in war is when I acheieve all of my objectives with no casulties, minimal costs, minimal civillian casulties and with my enemy having achieved none pf his goals or objectives.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

phimseto wrote...

Farbautisonn wrote...

Also I am a bit baffled. What is a "progressive" person? To me "progressive" is a rubber stamp that can be applied at will, more or less like "Real" or "true".

That's the best thing I have read all day.

Progressive like enhancing the sound and style of music until you get aural and mental problems? Progressive like more consumerism? Progressive to have the most negative-freedoms? [not exactly related to this comment, but I should said it.]

No thanks. I stick to path of moderation instead.

And also:
The Cerberus brotherhood is desecrated, scorned and disglorified ...!

Modifié par Jedi Sentinel Arian, 24 février 2012 - 06:49 .

[Cakefish]

Everyone's missing out on a big thing here:

Renegade players can't save Wrex in ME1 from being shot.

[GodWood]

Yakko77 wrote...
If you think the best way of saving the galaxy is being a colossal jerk but "getting the job done" then don't be shocked when you get a jerk ending.

I suspect you're trolling but because I'm bored I'll bite.

When people say they want the renegade decisions to pay off they DON'T mean those snippits of dialogue where you are blunt and 'jerkish' to random people. They are referring to the MAJOR choices (Council, Collector Base, Rachni, Geth, etc etc) which are not about being a jerk but are instead about being PRAGMATIC.

Frankly I would've thought that was pretty ****ing obvious.

[GodWood]

Cakefish wrote...
Everyone's missing out on a big thing here:

Renegade players can't save Wrex in ME1 from being shot.

Yes they can.

You can

A) Do his mission.

Or

Intimidate him with the renegade option.

[Yakko77]

GodWood wrote...

Yakko77 wrote...
If you think the best way of saving the galaxy is being a colossal jerk but "getting the job done" then don't be shocked when you get a jerk ending.

I suspect you're trolling but because I'm bored I'll bite.

When people say they want the renegade decisions to pay off they DON'T mean those snippits of dialogue where you are blunt and 'jerkish' to random people. They are referring to the MAJOR choices (Council, Collector Base, Rachni, Geth, etc etc) which are not about being a jerk but are instead about being PRAGMATIC.

Frankly I would've thought that was pretty ****ing obvious.

There was nothing pragmatic about wiping out the colony on Feros.  Killing the Rachni out of fear of what they MIGHT become is a genocidal act, nothing "pragmatic" about that.  Have fun with with galactic readiness in ME3 without the Destiny Ascension (sure, the Council is annoying but that carrier/dreadnought I KNEW would come in handy in a later game).  I'd have kept the CB if it didn't involve giving it to TIM/Cerberus.

That's not so say, I don't like to fight dirty either.  I did most of the renegade interupts in ME2 and still had a maxed out paragon bar with a 1/4 - 1/3 renegade bar.  I'll headbutt Krogan, shank mechanics in the back and push mercs out windows whenever needed to get the job done too.

[BlueMagitek]

Yakko77 wrote...

There was nothing pragmatic about wiping out the colony on Feros.  Killing the Rachni out of fear of what they MIGHT become is a genocidal act, nothing "pragmatic" about that.  Have fun with with galactic readiness in ME3 without the Destiny Ascension (sure, the Council is annoying but that carrier/dreadnought I KNEW would come in handy in a later game).  I'd have kept the CB if it didn't involve giving it to TIM/Cerberus.

That's not so say, I don't like to fight dirty either.  I did most of the renegade interupts in ME2 and still had a maxed out paragon bar with a 1/4 - 1/3 renegade bar.  I'll headbutt Krogan, shank mechanics in the back and push mercs out windows whenever needed to get the job done too.

Hello genocidal bug thing that never made contact with any intelligent life prior to now?  What?  You want me to take me at your word that the war that your people started a long time ago was a mistake and I should just let you go, with your promise (that I have no power to hold you to) that you'll be good?  Sure thing!  Don't forget to have a taste of the corpses that I killed for you on the way here!  

[Cakefish]

GodWood wrote...

Cakefish wrote...
Everyone's missing out on a big thing here:

Renegade players can't save Wrex in ME1 from being shot.

Yes they can.

You can

A) Do his mission.

Or

Intimidate him with the renegade option.

Oh OK my mistake.

[BlueMagitek]

Or not pick up Liara & Garrus; Wrex auto-obeys.

[rolson00]

XxXSarenXxX wrote...

It seems like every Renegade choice in ME1 negativly impacted ME2 and every paragon choice positivly effected ME2 its really kind of irritating, im hopeing they throw a few curve balls like the rachni or the reprogramed geth betray you or something, instead of constantly handing Snuggly carebear Shepards blue ribbons and no nonscense hardass shepards live grenades.

if that annoys you then your not true renegade

[Juumanistra]

GodWood wrote...

Yakko77 wrote...
If you think the best way of saving the galaxy is being a colossal jerk but "getting the job done" then don't be shocked when you get a jerk ending.

I suspect you're trolling but because I'm bored I'll bite.

When people say they want the renegade decisions to pay off they DON'T mean those snippits of dialogue where you are blunt and 'jerkish' to random people. They are referring to the MAJOR choices (Council, Collector Base, Rachni, Geth, etc etc) which are not about being a jerk but are instead about being PRAGMATIC.

Frankly I would've thought that was pretty ****ing obvious.

Pragmatism, like much else, is relative, for it can be argued that Paragons are being just as pragmatic in the face of the looming threat. The trend in the major Paragon/Renegade decisions has been for the latter to obtain a decisive and final of a known threat: The surest way to avoid the return of the rachni in force is to kill the only known queen; to prevent the return of the krogan hordes, destroy Maelon's work on curing the genophage; to end the scourge of the Heretics, simply destroy their base of operations. The Paragon choices have tended towards dealnig with the present threat in a minimalist fashion and undertaking a gambit that could prove useful in the future against the Reapers, such as freeing the rachni queen, preserving Maelon's research, and reunifying the geth schism. Both have eminently defensible points to be made about their pragmatism, and no matter what happens in ME3, they'll remain defensible when kept in context.

The only oddball choice when viewed through this lens is the Collecters' base, in which the Paragon choice is the one that more decisively deals with the present threat at the expense of potential future benefits. So if we're looking for something to "blow up" in the faces of Paragons, I'd think that's where it'd be.

[Yakko77]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Yakko77 wrote...

There was nothing pragmatic about wiping out the colony on Feros.  Killing the Rachni out of fear of what they MIGHT become is a genocidal act, nothing "pragmatic" about that.  Have fun with with galactic readiness in ME3 without the Destiny Ascension (sure, the Council is annoying but that carrier/dreadnought I KNEW would come in handy in a later game).  I'd have kept the CB if it didn't involve giving it to TIM/Cerberus.

That's not so say, I don't like to fight dirty either.  I did most of the renegade interupts in ME2 and still had a maxed out paragon bar with a 1/4 - 1/3 renegade bar.  I'll headbutt Krogan, shank mechanics in the back and push mercs out windows whenever needed to get the job done too.

Hello genocidal bug thing that never made contact with any intelligent life prior to now?  What?  You want me to take me at your word that the war that your people started a long time ago was a mistake and I should just let you go, with your promise (that I have no power to hold you to) that you'll be good?  Sure thing!  Don't forget to have a taste of the corpses that I killed for you on the way here!  

The Rachni that attack you are essentially insane from being away from the hive mind of the Queen.  They're so out of control that even she says they have to be killed.  In ME2, if spared, you learn that the Queen believes Shep is fighting the ones who "soured the song of" the Rachni meaning the Reapers (Sovereign) likely instigated the initial war via indoctrination somehow.  I imagine the Rachni will want some payback against the Reapers let alone their debt to Shep... if you were wise enough to spare her.  My galactic readiness will be improved and you'll still likely run into rachni husks regrdless.  Have fun with the consequences of your genocidal choice.  Cheers.

[Dean_the_Young]

Hyrist wrote...

Most major renegade choices involved alienating or killing potential Allies.

Methinks Renegades screwed themselves over.

Or:

Most major Renegade choices involve stopping potential threats from raising cain in the future.



Statistically, if you show enough murderers, criminals, and crime lords mercy... most don't change their ways. Except in Bioware games, really. Same with dealing with potentially devastating threats.... like a Reaper triggering off the Arrival in the next few minutes.

Few Renegade actions actually come in terms of 'alienating potential allies' that the Paragon equivalent can't also do to someone else. Help the Rachni? Anger the Krogan. Save the Council? Fewer Human supporters. Side with the Geth or Quarians? Anger the other.

Of course, Bioware keeps most subjects so far disconnected that being nice to someone rarely has any meaningful consequence with anyone else.

[JaegerBane]

XxXSarenXxX wrote...

It seems like every Renegade choice in ME1 negativly impacted ME2 and every paragon choice positivly effected ME2 its really kind of irritating, im hopeing they throw a few curve balls like the rachni or the reprogramed geth betray you or something, instead of constantly handing Snuggly carebear Shepards blue ribbons and no nonscense hardass shepards live grenades.

Garbage in, garbage out. Making bad decisions results in bad consequences, how is that a surprise?

[Dean_the_Young]

JaegerBane wrote...

XxXSarenXxX wrote...

It seems like every Renegade choice in ME1 negativly impacted ME2 and every paragon choice positivly effected ME2 its really kind of irritating, im hopeing they throw a few curve balls like the rachni or the reprogramed geth betray you or something, instead of constantly handing Snuggly carebear Shepards blue ribbons and no nonscense hardass shepards live grenades.

Garbage in, garbage out. Making bad decisions results in bad consequences, how is that a surprise?

When it doesn't happen to Paragons.

[TheOptimist]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
When it doesn't happen to Paragons.

That's cause being the good guy is usually the right call.

[casedawgz]

 I don't go for pure morality. I do like a space Jack Bauer sort of thing, where I'm nice to my teammates and try to save the lives of the innocent, but am utterly ruthless to my enemies. 

[Hunter of Legends]

Farbautisonn wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

And I had thought ME2, TIM, Cerberus, the collector base, and all of that good stuff was going to lead up to a lot of "shades of grey" sort of choices.

-Shades of gray is highly subjective. I have a degree in politics behind me and I have studied the history and realpolitik of the world rather intensively. My definition of "Gray" would likely be "pitch black" for alot of people.

Mostly because people lead swaddled lives. We are so used to the "white" that when we see gray we think its "black". Most people havent got a bastard clue how "black" the world can be.

The reverse is also true.

Some see the world so black when confronted with white they just lable it gray.

[Hunter of Legends]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

XxXSarenXxX wrote...

It seems like every Renegade choice in ME1 negativly impacted ME2 and every paragon choice positivly effected ME2 its really kind of irritating, im hopeing they throw a few curve balls like the rachni or the reprogramed geth betray you or something, instead of constantly handing Snuggly carebear Shepards blue ribbons and no nonscense hardass shepards live grenades.

Garbage in, garbage out. Making bad decisions results in bad consequences, how is that a surprise?

When it doesn't happen to Paragons.

It does happen to Paragons...

[nevar00]

Hyrist wrote...
ave the Council? Fewer Human supporters.

Kill the Council, everyone hates you.

In fact there are a lot of hard-to-believe situations on both sides but this one takes the cake.  Shepard should have woken up 2 years later had the Council been human led to find out that humanity was beaten down and treated as poorly as the Quarians.

I'm not even sure there will be consequences for either side anyway, nevermind more for renegades.  Besides nearly every choice in ME has both sides as pretty rediculous extremes.  The rachni queen and Collector Base: why not bring this up to the Council?  Nope, either kill them/blow it up or set them free/give it to a terrorist group.  What about the merc in Samara's mission, Fist, and... well every other criminal you run into?  Why are the two options murder them in cold blood or set them free?  Where's the arrest option!?

But I'm not going to argue any of that right now.  All I'm saying is I'm sort of worried that most actions throughout both games will not have a satisfying consequence.  And yes there are plenty of choices where the Renegades could end up with the same ending as the Paragons, just coming from a different way.  It's making the bad choices for the sake of being Renegade (or paragon although that doesn't seem to happen as often outside of side missions) that will possibly cost the "I'm going to be unnecessarily evil to everyone and everything" playthroughs we have.