307 réponses à ce sujet

[TheStoner]

Has anyone else noticed that the charts contradict what Bioware said about a seperate team and making it after the main game was finished?

[Wulfram]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

1. Is not your concern it is theirs.

If Cheez can make economic arguments, I can respond to them.

2. You not paying for less content, your paying for the content you want and not paying for the stuff you do not.

I'm paying less for less content, since I don't buy DLC at the prices Bioware sell them.  Particularly since I'm not going to be buying ME3 on release anymore.

Cheez is paying more for less content, since she's getting some of her stuff at DLC prices

3. Subjective and personal, fan loyalty is fickle and more in line with marriage of convenience if turn your nose up at them when disagree about something and only stay a fan when they agree with you.

Loyalty needs to go two ways.  Fans will be loyal if you're loyal to them.  Bioware's DLC policy has been getting steadily worse for years now, and you have to draw the line somewhere.

[Darth Death]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Darth Death wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Lol. How quickly you change your tune.

Hey, it's the free DLC that's most beneficial to the player.  But EA's not going to just blow money doing nice things.

You're just mad because you aren't getting stuff for free.

I'm getting the CE, so I'm getting stuff for free.

What's this free DLC you speak of? If you're referring to the prothean dlc included with CE, then that's not free since you payed the extra $20 for it. If anything you got the better bargain, but by all means doesn't make it free. 

Well, apparently the art book is worth about $20, so the DLC can basically be considered free on top of that.

But that's the thing, you got the better bargain for only $20 extra. In the end, you payed for everything for a good deal including the dlc. It's not that the dlc is free, it's the fact the CE is a better deal than the standard edition.

[gabe2gg]

Davidicus wrote...

DragonRageGT wrote...

I wonder if someone would do a charter like that about CDProjekt Red which has released ALL The Witcher 2 DLC's for free, including a major 2.0 revamp difficulty patch and a coming Enhanced Edition when the X-box version is released.

Did you play The Witcher 2 at release? There's a difference between giving away free stuff because you feel it's right and giving away free stuff to make it up to your fans. Guess which one CDProjekt Red falls under?

CDProjekt actually cares about its comsumers compared to EA/Bioware

[littlezack]

gabe2gg wrote...

Davidicus wrote...

DragonRageGT wrote...

I wonder if someone would do a charter like that about CDProjekt Red which has released ALL The Witcher 2 DLC's for free, including a major 2.0 revamp difficulty patch and a coming Enhanced Edition when the X-box version is released.

Did you play The Witcher 2 at release? There's a difference between giving away free stuff because you feel it's right and giving away free stuff to make it up to your fans. Guess which one CDProjekt Red falls under?

CDProjekt actually cares about its comsumers compared to EA/Bioware

No, they don't. They care about your money. Unless you think they made Witcher 2 purely out of the goodness of their hearts, and that they released 'free' DLC at their own detriment. 

Modifié par littlezack, 24 février 2012 - 06:21 .

[macdadams2]

1. How consumers view production is important.

2. This particular DLC could have easily fit into production and that third bar would have looked the same. (which isn't a bad thing.) Bioware consciously decided to work on it as DLC to make more money.

Everyone knows that they had this planned since the very beginning.

[gabe2gg]

littlezack wrote...

gabe2gg wrote...

Davidicus wrote...

DragonRageGT wrote...

I wonder if someone would do a charter like that about CDProjekt Red which has released ALL The Witcher 2 DLC's for free, including a major 2.0 revamp difficulty patch and a coming Enhanced Edition when the X-box version is released.

Did you play The Witcher 2 at release? There's a difference between giving away free stuff because you feel it's right and giving away free stuff to make it up to your fans. Guess which one CDProjekt Red falls under?

CDProjekt actually cares about its comsumers compared to EA/Bioware

No, they don't. They care about your money. Unless you think they made Witcher 2 purely out of the goodness of their hearts, and that they released 'free' DLC at their own detriment. 

If they seriously cared about your money they would of released day 1 DLC like Bioware for 10 dollars.




oh wait....

[AdmiralCheez]

Wulfram wrote...

1.  If they produce a better game, then they sell more copies.  And indeed, will sell more DLC down the line.

The same applies for day one DLC--if the core game is good, people will go out and buy the extras.  Most people don't purchase add-ons for a game unless they liked the game enough to go back and play it some more.

2.  DLC is sold at ludicrously inflated prices, so you're really paying more money for less content.  Which is less well integrated in the actual game than it would be if it was made as part of the game.

Ludicrously inflated?  It's ten bucks.  "From Ashes" costs about as much as a downloaded music album.  Stupid stuff, like alternate appearances?  As much as a soda or candy bar.

Besides, we don't know the production costs for this thing.

And Prothy's actually really well-integrated into the main game (script and leaked files, I can has).  That's probably one of the reasons why he costs more.

Finally, looking at all the stuff I get in the CE, I think I got my money's worth.  Art book and soundtrack?  Worth about ten bucks.  From Ashes?  Being sold seperately for ten bucks.  Lithograph, fancy tin, N7 patch?  Five bucks.  Random in-game goodies?  Three bucks.  And these are really low estimates.

3.  Acting like a jerk to your customers has costs as well as benefits.  Fan loyalty is a valuable thing.

Unless ME3 sucks balls, fan loyalty is basically guaranteed.  Making more products available does not make them "jerks."

Now, if we had to pay a fee to install Origin, or needed a monthy subscription for multiplayer, or nothing was ever patched, or nobody ever addressed fan complaints ever?  Then they're jerks.

[Dragoonlordz]

macdadams2 wrote...

1. How consumers view production is important.

2. This particular DLC could have easily fit into production and that third bar would have looked the same. (which isn't a bad thing.) Bioware consciously decided to work on it as DLC to make more money.

Everyone knows that they had this planned since the very beginning.

1. As a consumer I feel they have done nothing wrong here. You feel differently. = Result: Can't please everyone.
2. Irrelevant, their business, their product. = Result: Make you own game and do it your way or buy theirs.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 24 février 2012 - 06:28 .

[macdadams2]

littlezack wrote...

gabe2gg wrote...

Davidicus wrote...

DragonRageGT wrote...

I wonder if someone would do a charter like that about CDProjekt Red which has released ALL The Witcher 2 DLC's for free, including a major 2.0 revamp difficulty patch and a coming Enhanced Edition when the X-box version is released.

Did you play The Witcher 2 at release? There's a difference between giving away free stuff because you feel it's right and giving away free stuff to make it up to your fans. Guess which one CDProjekt Red falls under?

CDProjekt actually cares about its comsumers compared to EA/Bioware

No, they don't. They care about your money. Unless you think they made Witcher 2 purely out of the goodness of their hearts, and that they released 'free' DLC at their own detriment. 

Sure they are in it for the money, but CD Projekt is what Bioware was back when it was much smaller. They take great pride in what they do, and they GENUINELY appreciate people's business. So much so that they include things in game boxes and try to enhance everyones experience as much as possible. Without trying to make a buck everywhere they can.

I guess it's sort of like the difference of service when you go to your local small town bank vs. bank of america.

[Anaraky]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

shadowkiller74 wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

Whacka wrote...

teh_619 wrote...

Chargin 870$ for DLC?

They aren't charging $870 for DLC.

If you truly believe that all the small DLC's that come with the figurines, art books, etc. give players unique weapons in either Singleplayer, Multiplayer or both, you're sadly mistaken.
The DLC gives you nothing more than the Collector Rifle, which you can get in multiplayer anyway. And if you already have that weapon, the DLC codes give you free upgrades.

You don't have to worry about missing out on that. 

Unless I'm wrong. Then you have all the right to be angry about it. I would be too.

You're right, but it won't stop people running around and continuing to say that they are being forced to pay $870+ dollars for the full experience.  Just like there will be people who just because they feel the DLC should have been free and what the DLC character should have been, it should be free for everyone and that BioWare devs are continue to lie to us.

Expecting to get all the content on day 1 when you pay the full retail price of $60 is expecting free content? Brilliant arguement Einstien.

You are only paying for what is on offer, if it is not part of the package you was never paying for it in the first place.

Your $60 does not entitle you do things they have done past, present or future unless they decide to bundle it with the product and advertise it with such.  You are paying for what they offer not for what you think you deserve. If you do not agree with what is being offered then do not buy it and then have spent $0.

We aren't arguing we should get stuff not included in the package, we are arguing that some stuff should be in the package that isn't. You might disagree with whether the DLC should be included or not, but that doesn't mean the discussion doesn't have any substance. There are a lot of people that are appalled with the decision Bioware made. That doesn't make us entitled kids, it makes us customers with standards. I have no problem throwing money at companies I support. For example, I've spent probably around $300 on Guild Wars and League of Legends where the only thing I need to buy to play both games to the full extent costs around $30 today.

And yes, a lot of people won't spend money on ME3 in part due to the way EA and Bioware handles their business. I'm not mad about their decision with the DLC, since I never intended to buy ME3 in the first place due how they've handeled DLCs and updates with prior games. A lot of people are really disappointed though and understandably frustrated. They should be. It is a ****ty move by Bioware and EA. However it isn't really suprising. Bioware has steadily gone down the crapper since they joined EA and just hit a new low. EA has been pretty bad since pretty much forever. And that trend will continue since Bioware and EA fans are willing to get ****ed over and over again only to get hysterical if someone says something bad about their company. Pretty hilarious in a sad way.

Now, if we had to pay a fee to install Origin, or needed a monthy
subscription for multiplayer, or nothing was ever patched, or nobody
ever addressed fan complaints ever?  Then they're jerks.

Just wait for it. Look at what they did with DA1. Had like four patches in total and missed boatloads of issues, including some big ones such as the ranged bug.

Modifié par Anaraky, 24 février 2012 - 06:32 .

[macdadams2]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

macdadams2 wrote...

1. How consumers view production is important.

2. This particular DLC could have easily fit into production and that third bar would have looked the same. (which isn't a bad thing.) Bioware consciously decided to work on it as DLC to make more money.

Everyone knows that they had this planned since the very beginning.

1. As a consumer I feel they have done nothing wrong here. You feel differently. = Result: Can't please everyone.
2. Irrelevant, their business, their product. = Result: Make you own game and do it your way or buy theirs.

I'm definitely getting the game, and I think most everyone is. Even the complainers. We all love the series to much.
I just wonder if Bioware's rep is getting tarnished so much that future projects may be affected.  Time will tell.

[Xivai]

macdadams2 wrote...

1. How consumers view production is important.

2. This particular DLC could have easily fit into production and that third bar would have looked the same. (which isn't a bad thing.) Bioware consciously decided to work on it as DLC to make more money.

Everyone knows that they had this planned since the very beginning.

No it couldn't have. EA is only willing to dish out so much money to Bioware. The real big heavy hitters who get funding withotu question is the Battlefield Team and Sports Teams. Those are the real heroes to EA. Bioware is good, and built up some internal rep. But one or two bad games could send them sky rocketing back down. THey don't have an infinite budget, and it's beyond both our abilities to speculate where all the costs went. If it was plausible, they would have done it.

[Anaraky]

Xivai wrote...

macdadams2 wrote...

1. How consumers view production is important.

2. This particular DLC could have easily fit into production and that third bar would have looked the same. (which isn't a bad thing.) Bioware consciously decided to work on it as DLC to make more money.

Everyone knows that they had this planned since the very beginning.

No it couldn't have. EA is only willing to dish out so much money to Bioware. The real big heavy hitters who get funding withotu question is the Battlefield Team and Sports Teams. Those are the real heroes to EA. Bioware is good, and built up some internal rep. But one or two bad games could send them sky rocketing back down. THey don't have an infinite budget, and it's beyond both our abilities to speculate where all the costs went. If it was plausible, they would have done it.

Good to know we have an expert on the subject.

*rolleyes*

[Wulfram]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Ludicrously inflated?  It's ten bucks.  "From Ashes" costs about as much as a downloaded music album.  Stupid stuff, like alternate appearances?  As much as a soda or candy bar.

It's 1/6th of the cost of the main game.  Unless people talking about the leak have misled me, it's nothing like 1/6th of the price.  It's 3/4 the cost of ME2.

When the main game comes down to the price I'm now willing to pay for it, it'll be half the cost of the main game.  Which is utterly ridiculous.

Unless ME3 sucks balls, fan loyalty is basically guaranteed.  Making more products available does not make them "jerks."

Now, if we had to pay a fee to install Origin, or needed a monthy subscription for multiplayer, or nothing was ever patched, or nobody ever addressed fan complaints ever?  Then they're jerks.

Slicing their product into smaller slices to extract more money makes them jerks.  And they've lost this fan's loyalty.

[Anaraky]

Wulfram wrote...

Slicing their product into smaller slices to extract more money makes them jerks.  And they've lost this fan's loyalty.

Pretty much that.

Welcome to the matrix.

[AdmiralCheez]

Wulfram wrote...

It's 1/6th of the cost of the main game.  Unless people talking about the leak have misled me, it's nothing like 1/6th of the price.  It's 3/4 the cost of ME2.

When the main game comes down to the price I'm now willing to pay for it, it'll be half the cost of the main game.  Which is utterly ridiculous.

Gameplay length isn't the only factor that goes into pricing--there's also production costs.  Obviously, this sh*t's not sold at cost (PROFITS!), and undoubtedly they know that it'll have less sales than the main game.  Thus, percent profit per unit sold needs to be higher.

Ridiculous prices or not, and whether I agree with them aside, it's not like the final price was thrown out at a whim.

But you know what'd be really good for them right now?  A sale.  Make it so that, for a few days or so, the number of points required to purchase stuff is dropped.  This'll be a big opportunity for them, especially since they've never had a sale on the PC before.

Slicing their product into smaller slices to extract more money makes them jerks.  And they've lost this fan's loyalty.

Okay, then.  This DLC thing is losing them sales.  Once they start losing enough sales, they'll back off a bit and perhaps even reverse the policy.  Again, economics.

In addition, they're not "slicing their producs into smaller pieces" here--the process behind DLC is different.  Prothy probably wouldn't have made it into the game at all if he weren't DLC.

I'm not agreeing with them or making excuses for them, here.  In fact, I don't like this whole day one DLC thing, either.  I'm just offering my perspective as to why I'm not freaking the hell out over it.

Yet, anyway.  I have my limits, too.  Undoubtedly, I'll be forced to draw the line within the next few years.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 24 février 2012 - 06:55 .

[The_mango55]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Believe it or not, your raomnce with Garrus is not critical to defeating the Reapers. Believe it or not, customizing your armour is not critical to defeating the Reapers.
Believe it or not, choosing dialogue is not critical to defeating the Reapers.  
Believe it or not, exploring Hub worlds is not critical to defeating the Reapers. So they shouldn't have been planned for the main game.

Poor logic is poor.

You're right, none of that is critical to story and Bioware could have released the game without it.

But it's up to the consumer to determine whether the product is worth their $60. If Mass Effect didn't have all of that stuff there's a very good chance I wouldn't have bought it.

So the question is whether ME3 is worth your $60 without the day 1 DLC. Chances are before you even knew about the existance of the Prothean squadmate, you would say yes. But now, because there's something EXTRA that doesn't come with the main game, suddenly you think you're getting ripped off?

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

The funniest thing about the from "Day 1 DLC outrage" is that the vast majority of people who are going to buy the game have no idea that they are "supposed" to be mad and will pop the game in see the little notification saying new content available and buy "From Ashes" anywho.

[Xivai]

Anaraky wrote...

Xivai wrote...

macdadams2 wrote...

1. How consumers view production is important.

2. This particular DLC could have easily fit into production and that third bar would have looked the same. (which isn't a bad thing.) Bioware consciously decided to work on it as DLC to make more money.

Everyone knows that they had this planned since the very beginning.

No it couldn't have. EA is only willing to dish out so much money to Bioware. The real big heavy hitters who get funding withotu question is the Battlefield Team and Sports Teams. Those are the real heroes to EA. Bioware is good, and built up some internal rep. But one or two bad games could send them sky rocketing back down. THey don't have an infinite budget, and it's beyond both our abilities to speculate where all the costs went. If it was plausible, they would have done it.

Good to know we have an expert on the subject.

*rolleyes*

These are all comments in interviews over the course of years. Or ex developers going on their own records to state thei ropinions. Or words form EA itself. I'm just collecting and relaying the informaiton into a coherent whole for others to decide. A purveyor of truth, and no one says people like the truth.

Also what's wrong with making more money anyways? They bring you more game content, and with their high turn over cycle of development they can design one extra piece of DLC to sell to people. What's so bad about that? The debate here is this thread is if it is or isn't apart of the base game. I've proven long ago it isn't. Now it's just people mad and whining and feeling entitled to something they don't rightfully deserve. Pay for it and you get it, that simple. They developed it after the game was done.

I'm not an expert, but I have but a large chunk of my time into following news about video games/bioware and thinking about it. A bage or title doesn't make someone automatically right. Or if you lack one automatically wrong. With that garbage logic you would be wrong for the simple fact that you don't posess a title. Why would I respect your opinion? Instead I'm looking at you as a human being who isn't some asstard and can think, plan, look at a situaiton and weigh the facts to decide for yourself. A human being.

Edit
They have nothing to be mad about. It's like buying a truck and being told if you want you can get an satelite radio put in for a small additional charge. If they got mad it wasn't in the truck they were shown or told up front it wasn't there and never would be. It's not mandatory to drive the truck.

Neither is this dlc, it's got such a neligible impact in game. It's just there for you as a consumer to sweaten the deal with something extra.

Modifié par Xivai, 24 février 2012 - 07:13 .

[cerberus1701]

What I like about this outrage is the meme:

"It's a slippery slope. One day you'll pay $20, then have to pay more to get the boss fights, or to finish the game."

Never happen.

Never. Happen.

Now, I'm not saying that no developer will ever try it. I'm just saying it will bomb horribly and will never become a common method of delivery.

Because that is nothing like what's been done in ME2 or ME3. Because for all the griping about Zaheed. For all the complaining about Kasumi, for $60 you got a game with a beginning, middle, and end that is genuinely not diminished if you never buy either of them.

In short, it's complete. Is it completely complete? No. But novels don't answer every question or explore every avenue in the story. Neither do movies. neither does any story telling medium, really.

**Might** that be different with Prothy? Just going to have to wait a couple more weeks. But I expect you won't be missing anything Earth-shaking without him.

But the company that attempts to sell you the beginning of a game, then the middle, and the end later? That's a company that's not going to last another 2 years.

Modifié par cerberus1701, 24 février 2012 - 07:45 .

[Xivai]

cerberus1701 wrote...

What I like about this outrage is the meme:

"It's a slippery slope. One day you'll pay $20, then have to pay more to get the boss fights, or to finish the game."

Never happen.

Never. Happen.

Now, I'm not saying that no developer will never try it. I'm just saying it will bomb horribly and will never become a common method of delivery.

Because that is nothing like what's been done in ME2 or ME3. Because for all the griping about Zaheed. For all the complaining about Kasumi, for $60 you got a game with a beginning, middle and end that is genuinely not diminished if you never buy either of them.

In short, it's complete. Is it completely complete. No. But novels don't answer every question or explore every avenue in the story. Neither do movies. neither does any story telling medium, really.

**Might** that be different with Prothy? Just going to have to wait a couple more weeks. But I expect you won't be missing anything Earth-shaking without him.

But the company that attempts to sell you the beginning of a game, then the middle and the end later? That's a company that's not going to last another 2 years.

Quoted for truth man.

[AdmiralCheez]

cerberus1701 wrote...

But the company that attempts to sell you the beginning of a game, then the middle, and the end later? That's a company that's not going to last another 2 years.

Indeed.  Even Blizzard was smart enough to make Wings of Liberty a complete game in and of itself, despite it only containing a third of the entire story.  And Halo 2, while it ended on a cliffhanger, at least had a clear beginning, middle, and end.

[Anaraky]

Also what's wrong with making more money anyways? They bring you more game content, and with their high turn over cycle of development they can design one extra piece of DLC to sell to people. What's so bad about that? The debate here is this thread is if it is or isn't apart of the base game. I've proven long ago it isn't. Now it's just people mad and whining and feeling entitled to something they don't rightfully deserve. Pay for it and you get it, that simple. They developed it after the game was done.

Except some people believe it should have been part of the game. That is the issue.

They have nothing to be mad about. It's like buying a truck and being told if you want you can get an satelite radio put in for a small additional charge. If they got mad it wasn't in the truck they were shown or told up front it wasn't there and never would be. It's not mandatory to drive the truck.

Neither is this dlc, it's got such a negligible impact in game. It's just there for you as a consumer to sweaten the deal with something extra.

No, it is like showing a potential buyer the outside of the truck and when hammering out the paperwork the seller says "By the way, if you want a radio you'll need to pay extra". It isn't negligible, it is a ****ing protean. Lore-wise that is huge. Bioware knows that. So either it was a massive oversight on their part or they did it to coerce people into spending more money.

It's so sickening to see how people are cool with being treated. Doesn't matter if it is a friend who is shagging up with a girl that treats him like garbage, a person accepting whatever his or hers country does out of blind patriotism or a customer that just rolls over when the corporations exploit the hell out of him. I just don't get it.