28 réponses à ce sujet

[simanoi140]

Hello.
I'm new there so if I  placed this topic in wrong subforum just move it please.

I'm going to play campaign co-op with my buddy. He's got really awesome build for meele damage dealer and he can tank as well. I would like to play a bard, but I'm not quiet sure what should I add (if we are talking about abilities, spells, character and the rest of this things, including even strenght, charisma, intelligence etc.). I'd like to play support role for my team instead of being able to crush everything by myself. I don't know if the subclass is necessery there and if it is, which one should i choose. If you are able to prepare a little guide about character creating (including what should I add on each level) and gameplay I would be really satisfied. 

Also sorry for my poor english, hope its clean enough and you know what I mean.

Thanks for all responds.

Modifié par simanoi140, 24 février 2012 - 03:25 .

[Vampir Drache]

A Bard's spells are based on charisma. Your CHA needs to be 10 + spell level to cast a spell of that level. Example to cast a level 2 spell, CHA needs to be 12. Here's a command to improve your CHA:
##DebugMode 1
##dm_modifyCHA X X=1, 2, 3, etc
##DebugMode 0
For a support character, healing spells would be good.
 
The command is part of a list that I got from jmlzemaggo.

Modifié par Vampir Drache, 24 février 2012 - 09:16 .

[simanoi140]

Well, I know the basics about spells, modifiers, D&D rules and the other things you wrote about. I just don't know how to build a successful bard which wont be like my last, when i couldn't finish 1st act because he was bad prepared at all and enemies were too strong to counter them. Even more, I don't want to become cheater. I'll level up my character normal way and then add charisma points.

Anyway thanks for respond!

[simanoi140]

Maybe it's not like my 1st post is clean for you. In example, I would like you to help me this way

Add charisma on lvls x, y, z, s, r, u, it will be fine. You can add extra points in xxxxx at lvl z, x to improve your xxxxxxxx.
Basically, you need combat magic, it's really helpful. There are another abilities that you should add on the next levels: magic penetration, curse song, xxxxxxxx, xxxxxxxxx... You can mix your bard with RDD for better <something and something>.

Max: Use Magic Device, Healing, Persuade, Spellcraft. You can add some extra points in x, y, z.
Spells that I can advice for you are:
1st lvl - z, y, x
2nd lvl - x, y, z

That was an example, it could be really helpful for me if you construct something like that with true informations and tips.

Modifié par simanoi140, 24 février 2012 - 09:48 .

[simanoi140]

Thanks for help, this forum sucks

[Magical Master]

To be fair, it's been 10 years and few people play the original campaign.

So you're starting at level 1 in the Prelude and going all the way through?

What kind of weapon do you want to use? Ranged? Sword and board? 2H? Dual-wielding?

[WhiZard]

simanoi140 wrote...

Thanks for help, this forum sucks

You can search for a build you like or put in a build request at the ecb guild site.

Modifié par WhiZard, 27 février 2012 - 01:53 .

[simanoi140]

Soz but I didnt find any build via searching. I'd like to become ranged supporter (xbow, bow, idc really) with good buffs for my mate. It can be a multiplayer character for RPG.

[WhiZard]

simanoi140 wrote...

Soz but I didnt find any build via searching. I'd like to become ranged supporter (xbow, bow, idc really) with good buffs for my mate. It can be a multiplayer character for RPG.

There are two routes to this layout, both with the caveat that increasing your ranged attack potential will result in less buffs.

First is the arcane archer route (typically bard and fighter for the other two classes).  This does solid reliable damage and can penetrate high armor class.

Second is the sneak builds centered around rogue or assassin.  These builds can achieve a huge amount of damage simply from flanking a target with ranged shots.  The drawback here is that anything immune to crits (e.g. undead) or immune to flanking (e.g. dwarven defender) will take only a minor amount of damage.

[cds13]

If you wish to stay pure bard you could try a elf bard in order to better redistribute your points between DEX: 16 and CHA: 16 from the creation of the character. Focused ability: Perform. You could then focus on longbow and take feats like "point blank shot" and "rapid shot". By being elf you automatically become proficient in bows without adding new classes (you get proficiency in rapiers and longsword too, just in case you have to switch on close combat).
I don't know if you are playing vanilla NWN or have some expansions, some nice feats come from there.
If you play a human bard (some more feats available) you could focus on heavy xbows even if nice light xbows can be found during the game. Feats like "rapid reload" could help nut only if you have the expansions.

[WhiZard]

For a bard archer you would likely want the below feats

Essential feats:
Blind fight (good against concealment)
Called Shot
Weapon focus
Improved critical
Curse song
Rapid reload (only if going crossbow)
Extend spell or Silent spell (used to cast a spell more times at a higher slot)

Helpful:
Rapid Shot (often very good, but of marginal benefit in perma-haste worlds)
Lasting Inspiration (requires bard 20, but does make for long lasting songs)
Weapon Specialization (extra damage for just 4 fighter levels)

[Magical Master]

WhiZard wrote...

Rapid Shot (often very good, but of marginal benefit in perma-haste worlds)

What?

[WhiZard]

Magical Master wrote...

WhiZard wrote...

Rapid Shot (often very good, but of marginal benefit in perma-haste worlds)

What?

The haste attack is at full BAB but the rapid shot falls in line at -5 of its usual, then all the attacks are decreased by 2. 
Compare the difference

Combat mode    Not-Hasted                   Hasted
None                   +20/+15/+10/+5          +20/+15/+10/+5/+20
Rapid Shot        +18/+13/+8/+3/+18     +18/+13/+8/+3/+18/+13

[WhiZard]

Actually the below table may give you a better detailed look at how RS (when hasted) needs a really high AB in order to squeeze a considerable advantage out of it


Assumptions: Maximum attacks per round and hasted (5 APR)
The roll to hit is calculated based on the first attack’s attack roll (when not using rapid shot). Effect to hit is the average number of additional hits generated after 20 combat rounds.
Roll needed to hit     RS effect on hits
20                                +1
19                                 -1
18                                 -3
17                                 -3
16                                 -3
15                                 -3
14                                 -4
13                                 -5
12                                 -4
11                                 -3
10                                 -2
9                                   -2
8                                   -2
7                                   -1
6                                     0
5                                   +1
4                                   +1
3                                   +1
2                                   +2 to +19
Note: when barely able to get the first attack to hit on a two, rapid shot still doesn’t measure up to weapon focus in the chance of getting a hit.

Modifié par WhiZard, 06 mars 2012 - 03:16 .

[simanoi140]

And if I prefer to stay with my xbow as just a bonus to my character, and focus on singing, casting buffs and using scrolls instead of shooting, what should I do? And I can't get what are this numbers about generally. It's like rapid shot isn't useful or? By the way, I've got both bonus expansions.

@WhiZard - about Your first reply, I found nice-looking build for this 'arcane archer'. It's Bard/Red Dragon Disciple/Arcane Archer. Seems good but could You write something more about this rogue flanking class? I have to say that I prefer rogue than assassin because death attacks apply even rather than flank attacks. But maybe I'm wrong? And what about str and dex, both of them focus on dex? I heard that death attacks are linked with strenght by some very strange way but I can't say if it's true.

Once again thanks for responds, it really helps. Just 1 non-patient post and this topic lives!

[WhiZard]

simanoi140 wrote...

And if I prefer to stay with my xbow as just a bonus to my character, and focus on singing, casting buffs and using scrolls instead of shooting, what should I do? And I can't get what are this numbers about generally. It's like rapid shot isn't useful or? By the way, I've got both bonus expansions.

Bard, rogue, and assassin all have UMD.  Thus these builds often don't focus on using many spells inherently and instead devote their level investment towards combat.  If you get 20 or more bard levels you can take lingering song which will make your song last much longer.

@WhiZard - about Your first reply, I found nice-looking build for this 'arcane archer'. It's Bard/Red Dragon Disciple/Arcane Archer.

RDD is sometimes used to get devastating critical or make use of "mighty" bows that are capable of adding a significant amount of strength to the damage.

Seems good but could You write something more about this rogue flanking class? I have to say that I prefer rogue than assassin because death attacks apply even rather than flank attacks. But maybe I'm wrong?

Death attack is the same as sneak attack, but allows also for a chance of paralysis if the target is not already involved in combat.  Both sneak and death attack will apply significant damage to creatures that are attacking another creature.

And what about str and dex, both of them focus on dex? I heard that death attacks are linked with strenght by some very strange way but I can't say if it's true.

Death attack uses the intelligence modifier + 10 + assassin level for the DC.  All ranged attacks are based on dexterity (or wisdom with zen archery) rather than strength for determining if they hit.  Thus a large investment in dexterity is often good for a ranged build.  Bards make perfect ranged candidates because they only need 16 charisma max to cast all their spells and most of the spells they cast are buffs and don't require a high DC.  Also bard is freely able to use UMD to use any scroll they find.

[MrZork]

simanoi140 wrote...

And I can't get what are this numbers about generally. It's like rapid shot isn't useful or?

Unfortunately, it's somewhat complicated to figure the total impact of a feat like Rapid Shot. I find it most useful to figure out the effect on overall average damage per round (DPR) and it needs to account for critical hits, etc.

I worked up spreadsheet to rough out the DPR calculations a while back. Assume we are talking about an archer who is permahasted (or at least will be hasted during typical combat), and can choose between activating Rapid Shot or not for a given opponent. Broadly speaking, the –2 per attack will tend to make Rapid Shot a DPR disadvantage against opponents who are "harder" to hit and the extra attack will make it an advantage against "easier" to hit opponents. (And, even that isn't completely straightforward, as the extra attack per round is always an advantage against opponents that you were only going to hit on a natural 20 anyway.) By level 40, for a DEX build with lots of AA levels, with the great AB progression AAs effectively have, I suspect that Rapid Shot will tend to be a win except against some high-AC bosses. For a build with few AA levels or a lower overall AB (due to pre-epic class split, lower DEX, etc.), Rapid Shot may increase DPR only versus lower level mobs and will decrease it versus harder-to-hit opponents.

[WhiZard]

MrZork wrote...

simanoi140 wrote...

And I can't get what are this numbers about generally. It's like rapid shot isn't useful or?

Unfortunately, it's somewhat complicated to figure the total impact of a feat like Rapid Shot. I find it most useful to figure out the effect on overall average damage per round (DPR) and it needs to account for critical hits, etc.

I worked up spreadsheet to rough out the DPR calculations a while back. Assume we are talking about an archer who is permahasted (or at least will be hasted during typical combat), and can choose between activating Rapid Shot or not for a given opponent. Broadly speaking, the –2 per attack will tend to make Rapid Shot a DPR disadvantage against opponents who are "harder" to hit and the extra attack will make it an advantage against "easier" to hit opponents. (And, even that isn't completely straightforward, as the extra attack per round is always an advantage against opponents that you were only going to hit on a natural 20 anyway.) By level 40, for a DEX build with lots of AA levels, with the great AB progression AAs effectively have, I suspect that Rapid Shot will tend to be a win except against some high-AC bosses. For a build with few AA levels or a lower overall AB (due to pre-epic class split, lower DEX, etc.), Rapid Shot may increase DPR only versus lower level mobs and will decrease it versus harder-to-hit opponents.

Damage per round can be a little complicated as the effect of criticals is small, yet enough to be a tie-breaker.  What I have below is the full hits per 20 combat rounds, which is an exact computation of the expected value (or average) given the way the AB breaks.   The first row is where the first attack would normally require a 20 and the rows following it show what happens when the AB is increased by one at a time until the last row where the hits per round reaches its cap.  Bolded lines in Rapid shot progression indicate when using it becomes inferior.

Ranged Table (4APR from ranged non-crossbow weapon)

---           RS           Haste    RS+Haste


4              5              5              6

5              5              7              6

6              5              9              6

7              7              11           8

8              9              13           10

9              11           15           12

11           13           18           14

13           15           21           16

15           18           24           20

17           21           27           24

19           24           30           28

22           27           34           32

25           30           38           36

28           34           42           41

31           38           46           46

34           42           50           51

38           46           55           56

42           50           60           61

46           55           65           67

49           60           68           73

52           65           71           79

55           68           74           83

58           71           77           87

61           74           80           91

63           77           82           95

65           80           84           99

67           82           86           101

69           84           88           103

71           86           90           105

72           88           91           107

73           90           92           109

74           91           93           110

75           92           94           111

76           93           95           112

76           94           95           113

76           95           95           114

Modifié par WhiZard, 07 mars 2012 - 02:15 .

[MrZork]

WhiZard, we are getting very close to the same results. The difference is that I am getting one extra row of Rapid Shot disadvantage in the DPR calculations against the easier (in terms of AC vs AB) opponents. That is due, as you note, to the effects of critical hits. Against opponents where the extra attack balances the attack penalty to result in the same number of total hits (the row where you have 46 hits for both hasted and hasted-with-RS columns), the –2 attack penalty will result in fewer criticals because the threat roll is tougher to make.  As a test, I did the simpler case of ignoring crits by overriding the critical multiplier in my weapon data table for longbows and set it to 1 (no extra crit damage) and I got the same result you did.

[WhiZard]

MrZork wrote...

WhiZard, we are getting very close to the same results. The difference is that I am getting one extra row of Rapid Shot disadvantage in the DPR calculations against the easier (in terms of AC vs AB) opponents. That is due, as you note, to the effects of critical hits. Against opponents where the extra attack balances the attack penalty to result in the same number of total hits (the row where you have 46 hits for both hasted and hasted-with-RS columns), the –2 attack penalty will result in fewer criticals because the threat roll is tougher to make.  As a test, I did the simpler case of ignoring crits by overriding the critical multiplier in my weapon data table for longbows and set it to 1 (no extra crit damage) and I got the same result you did.

The effect of critical hits is minor.  To get to your progression (19-20/x3 assumed) I would just multiply all values by 1.2 and then add in the following modifiers +0.2 for all blows that can confirm on a one, -0.1 for all blows that only confirm on a 20, -0.2 for all blows that can't confirm on any roll.  These modifiers are too low to be significant for anything more than a tie breaker when comparing the rapid shot effect.

In order to get to where your DPR is drastically different than the hit ratio you would need a higher multiplier or a higher crit range.  However, the effect of sneak attack can bear significantly more of an effect dependent on its damage as a ratio of the weapon damage.

Modifié par WhiZard, 07 mars 2012 - 04:46 .

[Empyre65]

I know this is slightly off-topic, but it looks like the situation would be similar for a Monk using Flurry of Blows, an extra attack with -2 on all attacks. One difference is that Flurry of Blows doesn't require using up a feat because it is free at Monk level 1.

[Empyre65]

Oops, my post didn't appear, so I clicked Submit again, and then it appeared twice. I'd delete this extra post if I could.

Modifié par Empyre65, 07 mars 2012 - 09:21 .

[MrZork]

WhiZard, I agree. Particularly, the critical hit effect is minor on the decision of whether to activate Rapid Shot against a given opponent. Especially since one is unlikely to know an opponent's exact AC early in a given battle, whatever precision consideration of critical hits may add is not practically relevant. The difference in DPR between builds rarely changes much by considering critical hits, but high AB builds (which are a possibility with AAs) are the ones where it's likely to have the most impact, so I include it.

(And, the particular spreadsheet I use for this sort of thing already calculates exact average crit damage in the expected damage numbers, since I initially created it to resolve for myself the greatsword vs. greataxe question, particularly whether the 2d6 19-20/x2 vs. 1d12 20/x3 stats for the weapons would make either one a clearly better choice.)

Empyre65, the situations are similar and there is still an advantage to extra attacks per round against low-AC opponents. Basically, if you were going to hit them anyway, you may as well hit an extra time per round. With monks, the situations where that case is true may be more limited, because monk AB doesn't usually get as high as arcane archer AB. With AAs, it's not uncommon to have an AB that's higher than the AC of many opponents, and turning on Rapid Shot can add +15 or +20 damage per round against those guys.

If this thread is mostly about a character with considerable buffing ability for play in the OC, where it is rare to even hit level 20, then AB will never get really high and any real value in RS would be limited to the moderate extra damage done to low AC opponents. There are quite a few of those in the OC, but they aren't typically much of a threat.

[MrZork]

The difference in DPR between builds rarely changes much by considering critical hits [...]

Re-reading that, I just want to clarify that I'm not saying critical hits don't change DPR. I'm just saying that, in making a decision between two similar builds, the decision rarely flips due to being more accurate about critical hit damage, unless the difference between the builds is directly important to crits.

[WhiZard]

MrZork wrote...

The difference in DPR between builds rarely changes much by considering critical hits [...]

Re-reading that, I just want to clarify that I'm not saying critical hits don't change DPR. I'm just saying that, in making a decision between two similar builds, the decision rarely flips due to being more accurate about critical hit damage, unless the difference between the builds is directly important to crits.

Correct, and since flurry of blows was also brought up, I have looked at the difference between considering and not considering critical hits with a monk/WM having a threat roll of (16-20/x3).  Here the multiplication factor was 1.5 and the modifiers were -0.5 (for each blow unable to confirm), -0.4 (for each blow that confirms on 20 only), -0.3 (for each blow that confirms on 19-20 only), -0.2 (for each blow that confirms on 18-20 only), -0.1 (for each blow that confirms on 17-20 only), +0.5 (for each blow that can confirm on a one).  The difference in modifiers between flurry and not flurry for the same progression never reached higher than 1.4 (and this was reached when the modifiers were in favor of not flurrying).  If they reached the 1.5 this would be the equivalent on the hit chance chart to make the chances that were off by one become equal.  Since this didn't even happen, the best the DPR could show as to whether one would be better flurrying or not, would only be in the cases where the hit chance was a tie.  

Modifié par WhiZard, 07 mars 2012 - 06:31 .