227 réponses à ce sujet

[Furtled]

Draconis6666 wrote...
You act like these companies are raking in billions of dollars a year and yet most of them are struggling to even show profit on an annual basis. Yet you accuse them of ripping you off for a luxury good that when you have oil companies raking in profits of 10 billion dollars in the first quarter alone

That's a fair point, Apple make a huge percentage of clear profit from every device they sell for example, same for many other luxury goods.

I do wonder if part of the problem here is more to do with what the product in question is, rather than how it's been handled. Games are a messy mix of art and business, until now the art has (for the most part) been the bigger driving factor, but now the industry's maturing (and the market has become considerably larger) the business side is taking a stronger role. Seeing the types of practices that are perfectly common for most companies pop up where they haven't before could be part of why people (who've grown up with a games industry that's more focused on the other side) sometimes react so badly to them?

Modifié par Furtled, 24 février 2012 - 09:47 .

[Zargon VII]

Furtled wrote...
I do wonder if part of the problem here is more to do with what the product in question is, rather than how it's been handled. Games are a messy mix of art and business, until now the art has (for the most part) been the bigger driving factor, but now the industry's maturing (and the market has become considerably larger) the business side is taking a stronger role. Seeing the types of practices that are perfectly common for most companies pop up where they haven't before could be part of why people (who've grown up with a games industry that's more focused on the other side) sometimes react so badly to them?

Interesting point and DLC has actually been around a long time, it's just the nature and pricing of it have changed.  In the past, expansion packs were kind of like DLC, examples of this are Ghost Bear for Mechwarrior 2, Secret Missions for Wing Commander I and Defenders of the Empire for Tie Fighter and I guess a similar new example would be Awakenings for Dragon Age.  An important point to note is that expansion pack content never impacted the original game and they were usually very substantial releases, almost to the point of being a sequel.
The problem now is that DLC has almost completely replaced expansion packs and not in a good way.  The game companies have adopted a nickel and dime approach for every little stupid thing they can think of like palette swaps for characters, additional new characters that will have very minor roles, extra mini-episodes only playable from within the main game and they charge too much for them for the most part.  So little work goes into this stuff that they have it ready to go at the same time as the original game.
If DLC was more substantial and released farther apart and separate from the original game like in the old days, I think people would be a lot less angry and feel less taken advantage of.

Modifié par Zargon VII, 24 février 2012 - 10:31 .

[xsdob]

I really like this article, but I would site a number of reasons why his "old games didn't do this" argument is a bit flawed.

1. The internet was not available to the public when those games were distributed, it was still the military controlled arpanet.

2. When the internet did come out, consoles were still at least a decade away from discovering viable internet connection methods.

3. Games had things called expansion packs, which would hold more game content for the game, for the price of a brand new copy of the game, imagine a 60-80$ dlc that you had to load on a separate disc, for a lot less content.

4. Gaming companies would instead offer very minimal games, new versions for retail price, and hardware extensions that didn't work, took up a lot of space, and were made simply to rip people off, they would even sell products for games that didn't even have compatibility for said products, just to turn out a profit.

So no, dlc is not a new phenomena, it is merely the industry doing what it does best, finding ways to take more money in. Besides, dlc has made a lot of content cheaper to buy, since you no longer have to buy a separate disc that has this stuff in it and pay full game cost price for it.

Like he said, dlc is cheap compared to other stuff.


"This entire DLC debate that’s taken place over the years has just been a test. And if we want to pay less for our games, we sure as hell haven’t demonstrated that to these companies. But really, when you look at the numbers for many popular games, in reality, we’re still getting a bargain. Take this $70 I’m shelling out for Mass Effect 3 and its DLC. I’m likely to spend at least thirty or forty hours with the game in total, beating it probably twice with two different characters. When you do the math, I’m paying $1.75 an hour to be fully entertained by something I love. Compare that to a $10 movie ticket, which would be $5 an hour, or the $90 I spend a month on 300 cable channels to watch a grand total of three different shows a week. When you then look at a game like Call of Duty, where a dedicated player might spend 500 hours or more playing it over the course of its year-long life cycle, even if he paid $105 for the game and all its DLC, he’s paying a mere 21 cents an hour for his favorite game."

[Dionkey]

Sad but absolutely true, although I don't agree with being idle and supporting it.

[TLK Spires]

stopped reading at 'forbes'

[United_Strafes]

Guns_of_Freedom wrote...

To everyone still complaining that you have to pay to get exclusive CE DLC how about you tell Bioware thank you for even giving you a chance to play the DLC

Stupidest post EVER. What are they gonna do? Cornhole it and keep it to themselves so they can play it in their forbidden closet of mystery, or sell it for $10? That's got to be the dumbest thing I've seen on the BSN ever and that's saying a lot.

[Habs25]

You're not being exploited, stop crying. Since when as getting more of a game you enjoy a bad thing? And why are you surprised that you have to pay? People work hard to make the content, stop thinking this is some kind of just protest.

[Eain]

Habs25 wrote...

You're not being exploited, stop crying. Since when as getting more of a game you enjoy a bad thing? And why are you surprised that you have to pay? People work hard to make the content, stop thinking this is some kind of just protest.

I think part of the problem is that we don't know what we really -are- paying for in the end. Consider this: Do I pay 50 eu for the time it took to make the game? Do I reimburse the developer for their invested hours? Or do I pay for the resources they used to create this?

I wouldn't object to a sort of standard as to how expensive a game should be. Because as it stands I feel like this: if Bioware does not believe that 50 eu is enough to cover the costs of their game, and are charging separate content at another 10 bucks, then they should raise that as an issue. I wouldn't mind if ME3 was more expensive if Bioware could justify the hours they put into making it and say "sorry guys but 50 eu just isn't gonna cover it".  If they did that, I might understand.

Currently however I just feel like they suddenly up and decided that my regular 50 eu wasn't good enough for them and that they want more without telling me why.

What if the gaming industry could come to some sort of an agreement as to how expensive a game should be based on the effort it took to make it? I have no idea how such an agreement would come about, to be fair, but I feel like some games are certainly easier to make, and faster to make, than others. Yet we still pay the same. Why does every year's Call of Duty clone have to cost the same as a game like Mass Effect 3 that took so much more effort to build?

You wouldn't hear me complaining if CoD's yearly installment went down to half its current price and a game like ME3 would cost ten bucks more. It would actually seem fair that way.

But so long as the unwritten rule is that all games must be priced the same, my stance is simple: my 50 euros are good enough for everyone else, so they are good enough for you.

[TheStoner]

Draconis6666 wrote...

TheStoner wrote...
 I am sorry to say that I am starting to find it hard to take you seriously. You are treating the issue almost as a spin doctor. You talk about economics and ignore that game have a vastly higher consumer base and can now ake more money off video games than before.

Whats your point?  that doesnt mean anything at all your saying that they should be obigated to charge you less as a consumer simply because they can sell to more people which isnt true. If anything the fact that there are more people who demand the good means that they are able to raise the price of the good. Higher demand should = higher prices but instead you pay the same monetary value or close to it that you did 10 years ago even though demand has increased.

You act like these companies are raking in billions of dollars a year and yet most of them are struggling to even show profit on an annual basis. Yet you accuse them of ripping you off for a luxury good that when you have oil companies raking in profits of 10 billion dollars in the first quarter alone

My point is that you are taking everything that fits the idea that Bioware is good and ignore everything that frames Bioware in a bad light. Basically your spinning it.

[Furtled]

Zargon VII wrote...
The problem now is that DLC has almost completely replaced expansion packs and not in a good way.  The game companies have adopted a nickel and dime approach for every little stupid thing they can think of like palette swaps for characters, additional new characters that will have very minor roles, extra mini-episodes only playable from within the main game and they charge too much for them for the most part.  So little work goes into this stuff that they have it ready to go at the same time as the original game.

If DLC was more substantial and released farther apart and separate from the original game like in the old days, I think people would be a lot less angry and feel less taken advantage of.

Overall I think some of this is down to that hazy line between because it's cool and because we want to make money; and I think that line shifts depending on people's perception of the company in question, no matter what the original intent.

There's also price/value perception, the price people expect to pay for something is usually measured against the price they paid for the same item or similar the first time they purchased it (e.g. if the first t-shirt I ever bought was £20 then all future t-shirt prices will be judged cheap or expensive depending how much more or less they are than £20). In this case specifically people have gotten used to getting additional characters for free on day 1 (Shale & Zaeed if memory serves), so paying anything for an additional day 1 character will automatically feel like it's more expensive.

The shift from stand alone expansions to in-story DLC is an interesting one too, on one hand I can see it as added value and something to encourage people to buy new (which isn't necessarily a bad thing, although I don't think the used game industry is quite the bogeyman many publishers make it out to be), and there's examples of it in comics and movies all the time (cross-overs, directors' cuts, extended editions etc.). I don't know enough about the history of expansion packs to comment on whether they were value for money, but I can definitely see the appeal/value of them over something like, say, a virtual pet or basic palette swap.

On the other hand, yes, in this case specifically, I can see why people feel put out given the nature of the DLC; I certainly don't remember anyone kicking up as much fuss over Sebastian in DA2 (could easily be wrong there mind!).

tl;dr: The main problem as far as I can see is customer perception, and I'd agree with you that maybe releasing things like this a while after the game comes out would help with that (plus it'd give the CE buyers more of a bonus).

Modifié par Furtled, 25 février 2012 - 12:01 .

[The Executioner]

The backlash has already started they have already gone to far with release day dlc . I will not by it.

Modifié par The Executioner, 25 février 2012 - 12:00 .

[nevar00]

Not a bad read, but he's right. People are too lazy and will let this continue to happen until it reaches a breaking point.

As I've said before, my side of this is that the DLC itself is not what is so bad about the situation.  It's the fact that the DLC is of a living Prothean, something that should've been huge enough to have made it into the main game and should be available for everyone.  I feel this way due to how the Protheans were built up during the first two games.  Given their importance, a living one, even if it does nothing and has no impact on the main plot, should nevertheless be apart of everyone's experience, the same way Legion was in ME 2.  Which is why I have no plans on buying any other Bioware products after this.

Modifié par nevar00, 25 février 2012 - 12:04 .

[Elvis_Mazur]

That's totally true. I really hope people some day will understand how they are harming themselves by buying DLCs and thus supporting them.

[nickkcin11]

The very fact that someone made a 24 minute video about a $10 DLC pack is sad. Very very sad. The fact that an actual journalist covered said event is also sad. This has been blown way out of proportion and needs to stop.

It's not that people are too lazy or too sheep-like to stop buying DLC, it's that they just don't care. God forbid not everyone shares your opinion on corporation morality. Yeah BW, is trying to make a few dollars. Who the **** cares? I know I don't. It's $10.

Modifié par nickkcin11, 25 février 2012 - 12:33 .

[DTKT]

nickkcin11 wrote...

The very fact that someone made a 24 minute video about a $10 DLC pack is sad. Very very sad. The fact that an actual journalist covered said event is also sad. This has been blown way out of proportion and needs to stop.

It's not that people are too lazy or too sheep-like to stop buying DLC, it's that they just don't care. God forbid not everyone shares your opinion on corporation morality. Yeah BW, is trying to make a few dollars. Who the **** cares? I know I don't. It's $10.

Your point?

You mean it's not enough? When is enough for you? 15$, 20$ ? 

[Squallypo]

this has been said atleats from cynicalbrit video on the thread "mass effect 3 : from ashes" but theres just too many *biodrones* there that they just justify whatever they can and do so to the end. i has to applaud to this.

[Kakistos_]

I cannot bring myself to support this. I was mildly excited for ME3, but gaming is more than the bizz. You would think actual gamers could understand that. Integrity and Respect lost.

[Il Divo]

Well-written article. Captures my feelings on the topic exactly.

[Red Son Rising]

responding strictly to the article this author doesnt have a leg to stand on. i will always disregard slippery slope arguments that focus on a constant irreversible tide that will negatively affect any situation

sure, if youre dumb enuff to be exploited in the authors scenario its your own fault. problem is gamers have choices: nobody chains gamers to consoles and pc towers and forces them to buy video games

gamers sit back and make decisions based on the finances and their preferences, devs dont twist arms and break knees to force gamers to buy their games. its not exploitation

[PrinceLionheart]

In general crap like this is why I hardly ever buy games at release now. Why bother spending close to 100 for all the content when I can just hold out for the inevitable "Game of the Year" edition.

Considering this has becomes Bioware's M.O., I do believe this will be the last Bioware Game a bother to buy at launch.

[Larac]

TheOptimist wrote...

Ugh. He still misses the point that this content would never have been in the original game. If DLC didn't exist, we'd never have gotten the Prothean at all, he'd be one more item to have hit the cutting room floor. But atleast he's not yelling about 'deserving' to get DLC for free.

WRONG

It was in the leaked "OLD Scripts"
It was always pat of the story, Bioware Lied to you.

Lee

[nickkcin11]

DTKT wrote...

nickkcin11 wrote...

The very fact that someone made a 24 minute video about a $10 DLC pack is sad. Very very sad. The fact that an actual journalist covered said event is also sad. This has been blown way out of proportion and needs to stop.

It's not that people are too lazy or too sheep-like to stop buying DLC, it's that they just don't care. God forbid not everyone shares your opinion on corporation morality. Yeah BW, is trying to make a few dollars. Who the **** cares? I know I don't. It's $10.

Your point?

You mean it's not enough? When is enough for you? 15$, 20$ ? 

I don't know how to put this but... I'm kind of a big deal. People know me. I'm very important, I have many leather bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany. But you asked when it is enough for me? 30, no wait... 40 dollars

All joking aside, your argument is flawed. If BW wants to charge 30 dollars for Day 1 DLC, then good. Let them. Not nearly as many people will buy it while it's new. They won't do that. At least not in the near future. Till then, I'm going to enjoy not having to worry about 10 dollars.

And the point still stands that this wouldn't have been in the game if it had not been made DLC.  One of the features of the CE was a "DLC character/ bonus mission". If BW was actually having a dedicated VA come in, record lines, and they were going to make a mission around this guy, what makes you think that they would keep this character in the CE only?!?! Not only is that unfair for the people with the SE who miss out on content, but it's stupid when you look at the amount of work required and the amount of copies of the CE. Yes, it was bound to be DLC. And since it's one of the features of the CE (which costs extra money), the DLC must in turn cost money.

Modifié par nickkcin11, 25 février 2012 - 01:09 .

[KMYash]

I agree with what the article says and it kind of goes with what I've thought this whole time. I WILL buy Mass Effect 3 but I WILL NOT buy day one DLC. Everyone is saying that 'oh we'll boycott the game' but the chances of that happening are slim to none. If people wanted to boycott I think it would be better if they just boycotted the DLC. This says I will pay this much for your game, anything above that is too high.

Though I think it would be nice if Bioware gave a release week DISCOUNT (not free, but something to recognize that you're handing them money right away when you could wait a few months for a cheaper/used edition) to the DLC because Day One DLC still feels like a kick to the face.

[Moonshadow_Dark]

I still want to know how boycotting Bioware sticks it to EA. It's not really teaching them a lesson if you don't buy Mass Effect, but you buy Stuff Packs for the Sims, the 1975 Dever Broncos for Madden 2013 and the Adventure Action pack for Dark Spore.

It's like saying you want to show drug dealers you won't pay for weed, but you buy up all the crank, meth and coke you can get your hands on.

/shrug

People be weird...