202 réponses à ce sujet

[DeadPoolX]

I have trouble believing every Spectre is equal to every other Spectre.  There has to be some sort of heirarchy there.  Can you imagine a brand new Spectre having equal rank to a Spectre with 20 or 30 years under his belt?

I know promotions -- military or civilian -- aren't all about "time in service" and seniority.  Assuming the experienced Spectre in question hasn't massively screwed up somewhere, I'd expect him to have at least some authority over a newly-made Spectre.

If newer Spectres are "lower on the ladder" than previously made ones, then perhaps that's where Shepard's overall authority is coming from.  Since Spectres are technically outside the Alliance military, Ashley and Kaidan's ranks wouldn't matter.

This concept is all in my head, so it's definitely not canon.  I seriously doubt BioWare's given any of this much thought, especially when you consider how haphazard the Alliance ranks seem to be in this series. 

[Laughing_Penguin]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Again, that's not what the retcon is. According to the codex, she was promoted to Lt. Commander right after the Battle of the Citadel. It has nothing to do with her becoming a Spectre. It's just an external retcon by Bioware. They clearly wanted her to have a higher rank, so they changed the codex and made her one..

Which codex are you referring to (what game?) Is it ME3? I've knew she was promoted but never heard it was immediately after the battle of the Citadel.

Wouldn't it be funny if Kaiden tried to pull rank at some point in the game? How do you think that would go over?

[DeadPoolX]

pjmb21 wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Again, that's not what the retcon is. According to the codex, she was promoted to Lt. Commander right after the Battle of the Citadel. It has nothing to do with her becoming a Spectre. It's just an external retcon by Bioware. They clearly wanted her to have a higher rank, so they changed the codex and made her one..

Which codex are you referring to (what game?) Is it ME3? I've knew she was promoted but never heard it was immediately after the battle of the Citadel.

I'd imagine it's the Codex in ME2.  The ME3 demo doesn't show much, except for gameplay. 

[Draconis6666]

DeadPoolMK wrote...

I have trouble believing every Spectre is equal to every other Spectre.  There has to be some sort of heirarchy there.  Can you imagine a brand new Spectre having equal rank to a Spectre with 20 or 30 years under his belt?

I know promotions -- military or civilian -- aren't all about "time in service" and seniority.  Assuming the experienced Spectre in question hasn't massively screwed up somewhere, I'd expect him to have at least some authority over a newly-made Spectre.

If newer Spectres are "lower on the ladder" than previously made ones, then perhaps that's where Shepard's overall authority is coming from.  Since Spectres are technically outside the Alliance military, Ashley and Kaidan's ranks wouldn't matter.

This concept is all in my head, so it's definitely not canon.  I seriously doubt BioWare's given any of this much thought, especially when you consider how haphazard the Alliance ranks seem to be in this series. 

Perhaps, we have only seen interaction between two specters twice, the first being Saren and Nihilus which was quite short showed very little to know if there is any sense of seniority before Saren kills Nihlus, and the second being between Tela Vasir and Shepard if shepard is reinstated. In which case there again wasnt really any clear sense of if there is a seniority structure of any kind.

You would think there is but in the only instance we have seen that took more than a few seconds there are many side variables that throw it off. Vasir is the senior specter, but shepard has his deeds to act on beyond his actual length of tenure as a Specter. Vasir is also using Shepard to find Liara so she is motivated to ensure that he cooperates willingly and goes along with her suggestions without arousing suspicion. Which giving him outright orders might well do.

[General User]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Again, that's not what the retcon is. According to the codex, she was promoted to Lt. Commander right after the Battle of the Citadel. It has nothing to do with her becoming a Spectre. It's just an external retcon by Bioware. They clearly wanted her to have a higher rank, so they changed the codex and made her one.

There is no explanation in the game world for it. Trying to come up with theories, while fun, doesn't really change what is in the game.

What is in the game(s) vis-a-vis Ashley's rank makes complete sense.  She was promoted to a rank more in line with her capabilites.  Naturally that involved skipping a few ranks.

[General User]

I'm not so sure Spectres even have ranks to start with. For several reasons, not the least of which is that not all Spectres have a military background.

Modifié par General User, 25 février 2012 - 07:13 .

[izmirtheastarach]

pjmb21 wrote...

Which codex are you referring to (what game?) Is it ME3? I've knew she was promoted but never heard it was immediately after the battle of the Citadel.

Wouldn't it be funny if Kaiden tried to pull rank at some point in the game? How do you think that would go over?

I am referring to the ME3 codex. The audio for 81 of the codex entries is in the demo's audio archives.

I'm hoping there will be some friction with Kaidan at some point. Will be interesting.

General User wrote...

What is in the game(s) vis-a-vis Ashley's
rank makes complete sense.  She was promoted to a rank more in line
with her capabilites.  Naturally that involved skipping a few ranks.

It doesn't make any sense if you have any understanding of how military ranks work. There is nothing wrong with a high ranking NCO recieving a battlefield commision, but in those cases their promotion would likely never be to anything higher then 1st or 2nd Lieutenant. And certainly in peacetime, they'd usually have to attend OCS before being commissioned. There are only a few years between ME1 and ME3. There just isn't enough time to make her promotions realistic.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 25 février 2012 - 07:20 .

[General User]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

General User wrote...
What is in the game(s) vis-a-vis Ashley's rank makes complete sense.  She was promoted to a rank more in line with her capabilites.  Naturally that involved skipping a few ranks.

It doesn't make any sense if you have any understanding of how military ranks work. There is nothing wrong with a high ranking NCO recieving a battlefield commision, but in those cases their promotion would likely never be to anything higher then 1st or 2nd Lieutenant. And certainly in peacetime, they'd usually have to attend OCS before being commissioned. There are only a few years between ME1 and ME3. There just isn't enough time to make her promotions realistic.

I thought Ashley only got one promotion, ie her commission to Lt. Commander.

Modifié par General User, 25 février 2012 - 07:23 .

[Draconis6666]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

It doesn't make any sense if you have any understanding of how military ranks work. There is nothing wrong with a high ranking NCO recieving a battlefield commision, but in those cases their promotion would likely never be to anything higher then 1st or 2nd Lieutenant. And certainly in peacetime, they'd usually have to attend OCS before being commissioned. There are only a few years between ME1 and ME3. There just isn't enough time to make her promotions realistic.

It makes sense is she was being groomed for specter status already at this point, even if she wasnt yet a Specter it doesnt mean that she wasnt selected as a viable canidate and given a political promotion for that purpose. A regular military promotion does not make sens you are correct, but political promotions do not follow standard rules.

[DeadPoolX]

General User wrote...

I'm not so sure Spectres even have ranks to start with. For several reasons, not the least of which is that not all Spectres have a military background.

Why would having or not having a military background matter?  Spectres seems to be a para-military organization in of themselves and as such, would need  some sort of chain-of-command to work under. 

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Choopan (means Sheppard)

Also
Space Jesus!

[izmirtheastarach]

General User wrote...
I thought Ashley only got one promotion, ie her commission to Lt. Commander.

If that's the promotion she gets, it's the first time it's ever happened in modern human history, unless someone can provide me with an example of anything close to that ever happening.

Draconis6666 wrote...

It makes
sense is she was being groomed for specter status already at this point, even if she wasnt yet a Specter it doesnt mean that she wasnt selected as a viable canidate and given a political promotion for that purpose. A regular military promotion does not make sens you are correct, but political promotions do not follow standard rules.

That makes the Alliance military sound like an absolute joke, and sounds like the very definition of political interference. Militaries have rules in regulation. It seems like they must have some regs about time in grade.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 25 février 2012 - 07:30 .

[Draconis6666]

DeadPoolMK wrote...

General User wrote...

I'm not so sure Spectres even have ranks to start with. For several reasons, not the least of which is that not all Spectres have a military background.

Why would having or not having a military background matter?  Spectres seems to be a para-military organization in of themselves and as such, would need  some sort of chain-of-command to work under. 

the problem is that the way the system is explained each specter is his own para-military organization. The only definite chain of command is that  that they report to the council. Each specter could be 100% independant of any sort of chain of command other than Council >  Them and the system would function exactly as its described. Or they may have a chain of command outside that as well but its not the indication given by the lore in game.

[izmirtheastarach]

Yeah, Spectres have no superiors other then the council.

[DeadPoolX]

Draconis6666 wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

It doesn't make any sense if you have any understanding of how military ranks work. There is nothing wrong with a high ranking NCO recieving a battlefield commision, but in those cases their promotion would likely never be to anything higher then 1st or 2nd Lieutenant. And certainly in peacetime, they'd usually have to attend OCS before being commissioned. There are only a few years between ME1 and ME3. There just isn't enough time to make her promotions realistic.

It makes sense is she was being groomed for specter status already at this point, even if she wasnt yet a Specter it doesnt mean that she wasnt selected as a viable canidate and given a political promotion for that purpose. A regular military promotion does not make sens you are correct, but political promotions do not follow standard rules.

That's assuming her promotion was a political maneuver in the first place. 

I'd have trouble seeing anyone recommend Ashley to not only get promoted so high, but also to Spectre status. 

Why? 

Well, first off, she's more or less a grunt.  Nothing wrong with that and they're the military's backbone.  However, an officer -- and certainly a Spectre -- needs to be able to think before acting.  I don't recall seeing that behavior in Ashley before, but maybe she's changed.

Second, she's far too connected to Shepard.  Granted, some might see that as a good thing, but considering Shepard's recent association with Cerberus, his actions in The Arrival DLC and possible romantic interest (which probably broke some military fraternization rules in the process) in Ashley, I'd be more inclined to see her as a disaster from a political perspective.

[izmirtheastarach]

Ashley was also not very well thought of by the brass, at least until the end of ME1 .

[Laughing_Penguin]

@izmirtheastarach--I found the audio files you were talking about. I guess it makes slightly more sense if you figure "after the battle of the Citadel" to encompass a large amount of time rather than immediately after. Still, considering Ash was referred to as Operations Chief (an NCO, no less) in ME2, that's still a hell of a leap to Lt. Commander. Maybe they'll explain it in the game, but my guess is its simply an oversight.

Modifié par pjmb21, 25 février 2012 - 07:37 .

[Draconis6666]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

General User wrote...
I thought Ashley only got one promotion, ie her commission to Lt. Commander.

If that's the promotion she gets, it's the first time it's ever happened in modern human history, unless someone can provide me with an example of anything close to that ever happening.

Draconis6666 wrote...

It makes
sense is she was being groomed for specter status already at this point, even if she wasnt yet a Specter it doesnt mean that she wasnt selected as a viable canidate and given a political promotion for that purpose. A regular military promotion does not make sens you are correct, but political promotions do not follow standard rules.

That makes the Alliance military sound like an absolute joke, and sounds like the very definition of political interference. Militaries have rules in regulation. It seems like they must have some regs about time in grade.

But the Alliance is not a traditional military, its more accurately a security force for a group that was formed primarily to represent corporate interests. The entire alliance is very much defined by politics and political interferance. Look who is one of the three people who decides who the alliance military selects as their Specter canidate, Udina a lifetime politician. Udina also clearly manipulates the military when he has anderson "step down" from command of the normandy so it can be given to Shepard. Political interferance with the alliance military is a precident that has been shown many times in the past.

As for the part bolded above I believe there are several historical examples of soldiers who have gone from NCO ranks such as low grade sergeants to Captain rank, I believe I read about one instance even of a corporal being promted to that rank. I dont have the information on hand though, so id have to go do some reasearch if you want specific references.

[DeadPoolX]

Draconis6666 wrote...

DeadPoolMK wrote...

General User wrote...

I'm not so sure Spectres even have ranks to start with. For several reasons, not the least of which is that not all Spectres have a military background.

Why would having or not having a military background matter?  Spectres seems to be a para-military organization in of themselves and as such, would need  some sort of chain-of-command to work under. 

the problem is that the way the system is explained each specter is his own para-military organization. The only definite chain of command is that  that they report to the council. Each specter could be 100% independant of any sort of chain of command other than Council >  Them and the system would function exactly as its described. Or they may have a chain of command outside that as well but its not the indication given by the lore in game.

In other words, Spectres are, in a limited sense, analogous to the Green Lantern Corps in the DC Universe. 

[General User]

DeadPoolMK wrote...

General User wrote...

I'm not so sure Spectres even have ranks to start with. For several reasons, not the least of which is that not all Spectres have a military background.

Why would having or not having a military background matter?  Spectres seems to be a para-military organization in of themselves and as such, would need  some sort of chain-of-command to work under.

Depends. 

Having or not having a military background matters a great deal when it comes to any particular Spectre's regard for (military style) "rank" in general as a means of establishing authority. 

Also, whether the Spectres are a para-military or not, I have to think depends more on how you define 'paramilitary.'  Not all Spectre missions are gone about using violent, let alone military means.

And third, the only "chain-of-command" we've seen in regards to Spectre's is during their evaluation/induction/training phase (and even then it's pretty dang loose).  Beyond that they all seem to report directly to the Council.  An system of hierarchy that has more in common with the mafia.

[Draconis6666]

DeadPoolMK wrote...

Draconis6666 wrote...

DeadPoolMK wrote...

General User wrote...

I'm not so sure Spectres even have ranks to start with. For several reasons, not the least of which is that not all Spectres have a military background.

Why would having or not having a military background matter?  Spectres seems to be a para-military organization in of themselves and as such, would need  some sort of chain-of-command to work under. 

the problem is that the way the system is explained each specter is his own para-military organization. The only definite chain of command is that  that they report to the council. Each specter could be 100% independant of any sort of chain of command other than Council >  Them and the system would function exactly as its described. Or they may have a chain of command outside that as well but its not the indication given by the lore in game.

In other words, Spectres are, in a limited sense, analogous to the Green Lantern Corps in the DC Universe. 

Very good example I was struggling to come up with one and couldnt think of anything but thats pretty close I'd imagine.

[DeadPoolX]

Holy crap. Could you imagine Shepard with a GL power ring? Completely overpowered? You bet. Fun? Absolutely!

[General User]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

General User wrote...
I thought Ashley only got one promotion, ie her commission to Lt. Commander.

If that's the promotion she gets, it's the first time it's ever happened in modern human history, unless someone can provide me with an example of anything close to that ever happening.

How modern are you talking?  And what exactly (please be very specific) do you mean by "that" (as in "anything close to that ever happening")?

Modifié par General User, 25 février 2012 - 07:47 .

[izmirtheastarach]

Draconis6666 wrote...

But the Alliance is not a traditional military, its more accurately a security force for a group that was formed primarily to represent corporate interests. The entire alliance is very much defined by politics and political interferance. Look who is one of the three people who decides who the alliance military selects as their Specter canidate, Udina a lifetime politician. Udina also clearly manipulates the military when he has anderson "step down" from command of the normandy so it can be given to Shepard. Political interferance with the alliance military is a precident that has been shown many times in the past.

As for the part bolded above I believe there are several historical examples of soldiers who have gone from NCO ranks such as low grade sergeants to Captain rank, I believe I read about one instance even of a corporal being promted to that rank. I dont have the information on hand though, so id have to go do some reasearch if you want specific references.

They've always looked like a military to me. Also, if Udina is the one making the decisions, it seems even less likely that Ashley would ever be considerd for Spectre status. She's highly unlikely to cooperate with a politician like that. She hates him.

[izmirtheastarach]

General User wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

General User wrote...
I thought Ashley only got one promotion, ie her commission to Lt. Commander.

If that's the promotion she gets, it's the first time it's ever happened in modern human history, unless someone can provide me with an example of anything close to that ever happening.

How modern are you talking?  And what exactly do you mean by "that" (as in "anything close to that ever happening")?

The systems Alliance has existed for 38 years at this point in the ME universe. A promotion like this makes them sound like a Banana republic with no regard for actually military procedure.

Bored with arguing this point over and again. No one is getting anywhere. I'm not going to be convinced that a retcon is justified.

So, one more time. RETCON.

In ME2, Anderson calls her "Operatons Chief Williams"

In ME3, the codex says that at the time he does this, she is already a Lieutenant Commander. This is a retcon, through and through. I don't really know what the point is of coming up with an explanation for a retcon.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 25 février 2012 - 07:50 .