202 réponses à ce sujet

[DeadPoolX]

I agree -- unless she was simply promoted to LCDR out of necessity. A war's going on and maybe lots of people above her got killed, so she was promoted rapidly.

That's probably not what happened and it's simply a bad retcon, but I'd like to think there's a good reason for it.

[Draconis6666]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Draconis6666 wrote...

But the Alliance is not a traditional military, its more accurately a security force for a group that was formed primarily to represent corporate interests. The entire alliance is very much defined by politics and political interferance. Look who is one of the three people who decides who the alliance military selects as their Specter canidate, Udina a lifetime politician. Udina also clearly manipulates the military when he has anderson "step down" from command of the normandy so it can be given to Shepard. Political interferance with the alliance military is a precident that has been shown many times in the past.

As for the part bolded above I believe there are several historical examples of soldiers who have gone from NCO ranks such as low grade sergeants to Captain rank, I believe I read about one instance even of a corporal being promted to that rank. I dont have the information on hand though, so id have to go do some reasearch if you want specific references.

They've always looked like a military to me. Also, if Udina is the one making the decisions, it seems even less likely that Ashley would ever be considerd for Spectre status. She's highly unlikely to cooperate with a politician like that. She hates him.

They are a military but not a traditional one, the alliance is not really a governing body like you would think of one. The nations of earth still exist and are completely separate from the Alliance, the Alliance is more like the UN. And its military force is more like a private security force, expecialy if you look at the fact that the alliance is very much created to represent human corporate interests in space. Regardless if Ashley hates Udina or not, Ashley's mindset is that of a soldier, if her commanding officers tell her to do somethign she will do it. Those commanding officers however have been shown to be very subject to political tampering not just from Udina his is just the most evident.

[izmirtheastarach]

I still don't know why we are trying to explain this retcon.

[Draconis6666]

cus bioware probably wont even bother so we might as well

[izmirtheastarach]

Heh. My canon makes sense already, because Ashley is dead. Kaidan's promotions make much more sense.

[mauro2222]

I really don't care about the ranks, I don't care about the military in real life either. But, Ashley and Kaidan didn't sided with a terrorist organization, and didn't blow up a mass relay, if that helps.

[General User]

If the standard you're looking at is "who has more experience and/or success fighting Reapers regardless of military rank", then yes, it helps a great deal. At least in so far as it makes putting Shepard in charge all the easier.

[izmirtheastarach]

Shepard is in charge because of video games.

[Draconis6666]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Shepard is in charge because of video games.

^ this,

though as long as he is the recognized commander of the ship hed be in command anyway. You dont automaticaly become the commander of another ship the second you step on board because your rank is higher than its captain.

[Drone223]

imo since there has been no mention of Shepard getting a promotion Shepard is still a Lt. commander, and as for getting a promotion, Also since Shepard worked with Cerberus and blew up a mass relay and killed over 300,000 Baterian's would have proberly runied Shepard's chance's of getting a promotion 

[izmirtheastarach]

Draconis6666 wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Shepard is in charge because of video games.

^ this,

though as long as he is the recognized commander of the ship hed be in command anyway. You dont automaticaly become the commander of another ship the second you step on board because your rank is higher than its captain.

Just like other people have said was well, Shepard should have been referred to by the crew as Captain from the moment he took command. The reason he isn't is because video games, which is to say that "Commander Shepard" is an iconic phrase Bioware like to use all over the place.

[Slayer299]

modeseven wrote...

Slayer299 wrote...

1. Technically Shepard outranks Ashley due to the date he was promoted to Lt. Cmdr. which as prior to Ashley's promotion only 6 mos ago.

2. Shepard never received a promotion (if he was getting one after the Citadel) because he was a)killed by the Collectors and a Spectre and no longer considered part of the Alliance military.

3. In ME2 the crew on board the Normandy was mostly civilians, (excluding Ken, Gabby, Chakwas and Gardner) so it made sense for them to call Shepard, Commander and not Captain as that is a military point that they would not be aware of (rank vs ship's commander). I don't know why the 4 didn't call him Captain though.

edit - typo, clarity

Picking nits here, but Ken, Gabby, Chakwas, Chambers et all are not civilians. The crew of the Normandy is also not civilain. They're enlisted. Yeomans, engineers, etc are all roles people fill in Navies, but they are not civilians.

Chakwas is an officer. All doctors in militaries are (along with Chaplians). Ashley's rise to Lt Cmdr is especially odd because it's not JUST an increase in rank, but a crossover from enlisted to officer. That's an important distinction.

I actually did say excluding those four, who *should* have addressed Shepard correctly. My point was that BW might have decided that those two title/rank (Commander/Captain) might "confuse" gamers, not necessarily accurate though.

[izmirtheastarach]

Slayer299 wrote...
I actually did say excluding those four, who *should* have addressed Shepard correctly. My point was that BW might have decided that those two title/rank (Commander/Captain) might "confuse" gamers, not necessarily accurate though.

It's also to just make him an iconic character. The legendary Commander Shepard.

[Pride Demon]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

JunMadine wrote...

Perhaps in honor of Shepard all human spectre agents who are not at least Lt. Commander or higher are promoted so as to ease potential friction with the alliance military. Plus I think that in ME3 Shepard is a full commander. Based on how Anderson addresses Ashley as Lt. Commander and Shepard as Commander.

Once humanity is a full council race, Spectres no longer need to have any particular rank in the Alliance military. They have authority over pretty much anyone. In ME1 a Spectre can refuse orders even from Admirals, and both Saren and Vasir give orders to pretty much anyone they meet, not matter what there position.

It's just a retcon. I don't know that there is any reason beyond the fact that they just decided she was going to be a Lt. Commander in ME3.

As for Shepard, until something in-game explicitly tells me that Shep is anything beyond a Lt. Commander, I don't believe it. A Lt. Commander is often referred to as Commander. The next highest rank, Staff Commander, is only ever referred to in the series by it's full title.

Actually TIM once refers to him as simply "Commander Alenko", don't know if it counts though...
I always got Anderson using the full rank as a way to correct Shepard or fill him/her in on the new rank of the VS...

Shep: Where's Staff Lieutenent Alenko?
Anderson: Staff Commander Alenko is on a special mission, etc...

Sort of like this, the same with Ashley...

[izmirtheastarach]

Pride Demon wrote...

Actually TIM once refers to him as simply "Commander Alenko", don't know if it counts though...
I always got Anderson using the full rank as a way to correct Shepard or fill him/her in on the new rank of the VS...

Shep: Where's Staff Lieutenent Alenko?
Anderson: Staff Commander Alenko is on a special mission, etc...

Sort of like this, the same with Ashley...

Correct. Except Ashley is referred to as Operations Chief Williams, and now the ME3 codex says the she was already a Lt. Commander when he said that. RetKAHN!!!!!!

Also, if you can find TiM saying that, I will eat my hat.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 25 février 2012 - 10:18 .

[Witty_Remark]

During Tali'zorah's loyalty mission in ME2, Shepard has a chance to explain why people don't call him/her 'Captain'. When called that by the Quarians, Shepard states he/she never actually received the promotion from Commander to Captain- which implies that in the ME universe, 'traditions' about calling someone Captain simply for being in control of the ship do not always apply.

For those curious, the Quarians then explain that they have their own traditions about calling people Captain and encourage Shepard to just accept it as a sign of respect.

I'm conflicted about the idea of Alenko or Williams having equal/greater status than Shepard. On one hand, Shepard has certainly been extremely controversial, has a complicated Spectre status, and oh, right, was dead too. So it makes sense that loyal and (presumably) law-abiding people like Alenko and Williams would have gotten promotions while Shepard's career moved sluggishly or even stagnated.

On the other hand, I guess it would be appropriate to quote Joker and say that I don't trust anyone making more than I do. It seems like an injustice that Shepard could save the galaxy again and again but be left in the dust while the sidekicks get a step up the ladder. Or several improbable steps up the ladder, in Ashley's case.

Then again, Shepard's life was never a fair one. Just something to rail about, I guess. All I can say with certainty is that I'm not bowing for either of them. My numerous Shepards have done incredible things and after those two turned their back on me on Horizon, they've hardly earned my subordination.

TL;DR: They explain the Commander/Captain thing in ME2. I have no idea what Shepard's current rank would technically be now, but that's why people still call him/her Commander.

[Laughing_Penguin]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

I still don't know why we are trying to explain this retcon.

I like to think of it as the old Marvel no-prize: can you come up with a plausible reason why this obvious mistake is not an obvious mistake?

[Laughing_Penguin]

Witty_Remark wrote...I'm conflicted about the idea of Alenko or Williams having equal/greater status than Shepard.

I'm nitpicking, but "status" is not the same as "rank." No one has the same status as Shepard (e.g. killing a reaper) which is presumably why he commands so much respect and is in charge during the game. 

Of course, he's also the protagonist in a video game, so there's that, too. 

[Pride Demon]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Pride Demon wrote...

Actually TIM once refers to him as simply "Commander Alenko", don't know if it counts though...
I always got Anderson using the full rank as a way to correct Shepard or fill him/her in on the new rank of the VS...

Shep: Where's Staff Lieutenent Alenko?
Anderson: Staff Commander Alenko is on a special mission, etc...

Sort of like this, the same with Ashley...

Correct. Except Ashley is referred to as Operations Chief Williams, and now the ME3 codex says the she was already a Lt. Commander when he said that. RetKAHN!!!!!!

Also, if you can find TiM saying that, I will eat my hat.

Chomp away, it's at 0.50 more or less, Tim discussing why Kaidan in on Horizon...
For the record I was not debating the incredible jump in rank of Ashley, just thinking about a possible advance in rank for Shep, one can dream no?

[izmirtheastarach]

pjmb21 wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

I still don't know why we are trying to explain this retcon.

I like to think of it as the old Marvel no-prize: can you come up with a plausible reason why this obvious mistake is not an obvious mistake?

What you can do is just assume that "after the Battle of the Citadel" means "sometime after". You still have to ignore Anderson calling her Operations Chief Williams.

So she was commisioned as a 2nd Lieutenant after ME1, and then worked her way up through the ranks between then and ME3. That makes at least some sense. It's still a pretty quick climb, but at least not impossible.

But to make that work in your head-canon, you have to actually ignore both the retcon, and the reference to her rank in ME2.

Pride Demon wrote...
Chomp away, it's at 0.50 more or less, Tim discussing why Kaidan in on Horizon...
For the record I was not debating the incredible jump in rank of Ashley,  just thinking about a possible advance in rank for Shep, one can dream no?

This hat is a little tough.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 16 juillet 2015 - 03:40 .

[Naltair]

If they retconned her rank to a Commissioned Officer in ME3 then I think it makes sense to say that Ashley was probably promoted quite quickly after the Battle of the Citadel. I see people saying she is a grunt or not worthy but really she is quite capable and a good soldier. One of the major issues holding her back was not her capabilities but her name. Her whole family was black listed after her ancestor surrendered to the Turians.

This has nothing to do with her actual capabilities which Shepard says are quite exemplary and based on her evaluation reports she should be in a better posting and probably higher rank than she is currently as of ME1. Luckily for her, assuming she survives Virmire, she hooks up with the Normandy and assists Shepard in defeating Saren and stopping the Geth, even if you never used her she was apart of the fight if she survived.

Then ME2 happens she is probably drafted to all kinds of awesome missions mainly because well Anderson likes her, she does good work, and she was front line at the Battle of the Citadel. She more than proves she is Spectre material by this point and with Shepard looking like a raving lunatic, traitor, and well dead/not dead she would have been the next logical choice to become a Spectre and accelerated promotion.

Is it realistic, I would say no, but given the events she or Kaidan have been privy to in the wake of Shepard’s actions; they don’t have normal careers as service members. It justifies the “special” treatment, though in all honesty both have earned their positions, as of ME3, and anyone denying that is being silly or too Shepard-centric.

I am not downplaying Shepard either, he should be promoted. At this point s/he has been called Commander for the last two games I doubt that will change for the third. It is apart of the identity of the character.

[anmiro]

Rank is weird in this game. Kaiden is a Major, which is not a Navy Rank. Major is an O-4 in the Marines and Army. In the Navy an 0-4 is a Lt. Commander.

[Naltair]

anmiro wrote...

Rank is weird in this game. Kaiden is a Major, which is not a Navy Rank. Major is an O-4 in the Marines and Army. In the Navy an 0-4 is a Lt. Commander.

Yeah I agree it is kind of weird in this game.

[izmirtheastarach]

Kaidan is fine. His promotions are all logical. Fast, sure, but not crazy. It's Ashley that's the issue. It Anderson had just referred to her as Lieutenant Williams in ME2, there would be no need for a retcon.

[izmirtheastarach]

anmiro wrote...

Rank is weird in this game. Kaiden is a Major, which is not a Navy Rank. Major is an O-4 in the Marines and Army. In the Navy an 0-4 is a Lt. Commander.

That's explained in the codex. They are a combined service.

The divide between naval personnel and ground forces ("marines") is small. Ground units are a specialized branch of the fleet, just as fighter squadrons are. This unity of command is imposed by the futility of fighting without control of orbit; without the navy, any army is pointless. The marines, as a matter of pride, maintain some of their traditional rank titles; for example, marines have Privates and Corporals instead of Servicemen.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 26 février 2012 - 12:04 .