202 réponses à ce sujet

[Laughing_Penguin]

Here's my scenario of Ash's promotion, assuming the "after the battle of the Citadel" encompasses all the time from the end of ME1 to ME3.

Ash wasn't being promoted due to blacklisting but she has the skills. Between ME1 and 2, her actions get her promoted to Operations Chief. After the Normandy explodes, she's probably recruited for a bunch of classified stuff and maybe does enough where Anderson or Hackett can get her a commission. And let's say her promotion to officer was technically pending during the Horizon mission, but she is immediatley made a lieutenant upon her return. Then the brass recognizes they were treating her unfairly in the past and resolve to promote her as she deserves, hence her rapid rise in rank.

Certainly a stretch, but it's as logical as anything other explanation (which is to say not very).    

[anmiro]

Billet > Rank. Shepard may only be a Lt. Commander (0-4), but he actually holds the billet of a Captain (0-6). Shepard is simply overdue for a promotion to a rank th at fits his station. This is not unusual to see in the military.

[anmiro]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

anmiro wrote...

Rank is weird in this game. Kaiden is a Major, which is not a Navy Rank. Major is an O-4 in the Marines and Army. In the Navy an 0-4 is a Lt. Commander.

That's explained in the codex. They are a combined service.

The divide between naval personnel and ground forces ("marines") is small. Ground units are a specialized branch of the fleet, just as fighter squadrons are. This unity of command is imposed by the futility of fighting without control of orbit; without the navy, any army is pointless. The marines, as a matter of pride, maintain some of their traditional rank titles; for example, marines have Privates and Corporals instead of Servicemen.

My point was that Major does not out rank Lt. Commander. They are both O-4 in the officer rank structure. I am going to assume that Shepard will still be the Commander of the Normandy in ME3, if thats the case and Kaiden is a member of his crew, it doesnt matter who has the higher rank, because Shepard has the higher station.

[izmirtheastarach]

anmiro wrote...

My point was that Major does not out rank Lt. Commander. They are both O-4 in the officer rank structure. I am going to assume that Shepard will still be the Commander of the Normandy in ME3, if thats the case and Kaiden is a member of his crew, it doesnt matter who has the higher rank, because Shepard has the higher station.

Except that the system Alliance does not use whatever ranking system you are refrencing there. From the codex:

OFFICERS

• 2nd Lieutenant
• 1st Lieutenant
• Staff Lieutenant
• Lieutenant Commander
• Staff Commander
• Captain/Major
• Rear Admiral/General
• Admiral
• Fleet Admiral

Shepard may command the Normandy, but he doesn't have any right to give orders to Kaidan, who could leave the ship at any time. Not only does he outrank Shepard, he's also a Spectre.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 26 février 2012 - 12:24 .

[modeseven]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

anmiro wrote...

Rank is weird in this game. Kaiden is a Major, which is not a Navy Rank. Major is an O-4 in the Marines and Army. In the Navy an 0-4 is a Lt. Commander.

That's explained in the codex. They are a combined service.

The divide between naval personnel and ground forces ("marines") is small. Ground units are a specialized branch of the fleet, just as fighter squadrons are. This unity of command is imposed by the futility of fighting without control of orbit; without the navy, any army is pointless. The marines, as a matter of pride, maintain some of their traditional rank titles; for example, marines have Privates and Corporals instead of Servicemen.

Also not unlike the actual Navy. Marines arein the dept of the Navy, after all. 

[anmiro]

pjmb21 wrote...

Here's my scenario of Ash's promotion, assuming the "after the battle of the Citadel" encompasses all the time from the end of ME1 to ME3.

Ash wasn't being promoted due to blacklisting but she has the skills. Between ME1 and 2, her actions get her promoted to Operations Chief. After the Normandy explodes, she's probably recruited for a bunch of classified stuff and maybe does enough where Anderson or Hackett can get her a commission. And let's say her promotion to officer was technically pending during the Horizon mission, but she is immediatley made a lieutenant upon her return. Then the brass recognizes they were treating her unfairly in the past and resolve to promote her as she deserves, hence her rapid rise in rank.

Certainly a stretch, but it's as logical as anything other explanation (which is to say not very).    

This is not a stretch at all. The alliance may not know how to deal with Shepard (he is something of a loose cannon), but Anderson has always been in a position to fast track Ashley and Kaiden's careers. Shepard is long over due for a promotion and I think it's because Alliance brass is afraid of giving Shepard any more power.

[anmiro]

modeseven wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

anmiro wrote...

Rank is weird in this game. Kaiden is a Major, which is not a Navy Rank. Major is an O-4 in the Marines and Army. In the Navy an 0-4 is a Lt. Commander.

That's explained in the codex. They are a combined service.

The divide between naval personnel and ground forces ("marines") is small. Ground units are a specialized branch of the fleet, just as fighter squadrons are. This unity of command is imposed by the futility of fighting without control of orbit; without the navy, any army is pointless. The marines, as a matter of pride, maintain some of their traditional rank titles; for example, marines have Privates and Corporals instead of Servicemen.

Marines may fall into the department of the Navy, but they do not share the same rank structure.

Also not unlike the actual Navy. Marines arein the dept of the Navy, after all. 

[izmirtheastarach]

Why are we talking about the "actual" navy? The issue is the navy in the game world.

[fetissimies]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

[*]Shepard may command the Normandy, but he doesn't have any right to give orders to Kaidan, who could leave the ship at any time. Not only does he outrank Shepard, he's also a Spectre.

If the Alliance has ordered him to serve under Shepard's command, he "can't leave the ship at any time". Also rank doesn't mean anything in special circumstances, for example, a Military Police whose rank is Private could throw a General in the jail even if he tries to order him otherwise

[modeseven]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Why are we talking about the "actual" navy? The issue is the navy in the game world.

Art imitates life. That's what all this is based on.

[izmirtheastarach]

fetissimies wrote...

If the Alliance has ordered him to serve under Shepard's command, he "can't leave the ship at any time". Also rank doesn't mean anything in special circumstances, for example, a Military Police whose rank is Private could throw a General in the jail even if he tries to order him otherwise

No one has ordered him to do anything. They grab the ship and leave Earth. There are no orders issues. According to the info Bioware has put up, Kaidan has a completely different command. He's not part of the Normandy crew.

[anmiro]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

anmiro wrote...

My point was that Major does not out rank Lt. Commander. They are both O-4 in the officer rank structure. I am going to assume that Shepard will still be the Commander of the Normandy in ME3, if thats the case and Kaiden is a member of his crew, it doesnt matter who has the higher rank, because Shepard has the higher station.

Except that the system Alliance does not use whatever ranking system you are refrencing there. From the codex:

OFFICERS

• 2nd Lieutenant
  
• 1st Lieutenant
  
• Staff Lieutenant
  
• Lieutenant Commander
  
• Staff Commander
  
• Captain/Major
  
• Rear Admiral/General
  
• Admiral
  
• Fleet Admiral

Shepard may command the Normandy, but he doesn't have any right to give orders to Kaidan, who could leave the ship at any time. Not only does he outrank Shepard, he's also a Spectre.

[*]Good to know. It doesnt change anything though. If Shepard is Commander of the Normandy he holds the position of a Captain/Major. If Kaiden is a member of the Normandy's crew, than Shepard is his commander. I didn't know Kaiden was a Spectre (thats awesome) but he is still a Major in the Alliance.

[izmirtheastarach]

modeseven wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Why are we talking about the "actual" navy? The issue is the navy in the game world.

Art imitates life. That's what all this is based on.

This would all make a lot more sense if they'd just made it the same as a real-world ranking system. Maybe just make it straight Navy.

[modeseven]

anmiro wrote...

This is not a stretch at all. The alliance may not know how to deal with Shepard (he is something of a loose cannon), but Anderson has always been in a position to fast track Ashley and Kaiden's careers. Shepard is long over due for a promotion and I think it's because Alliance brass is afraid of giving Shepard any more power.

This is a compelling arguement. Think about it this way: Shepard was dead and he died a hero as far as humanity's concerned. Even if the council got wiped out, dude's the first human spectre. He died a figurehead. So he comes back two years later? And on top of it w/ a pseudo-terrorist organization running around fear-mongering about 'reapers'? Politically he's better off dead.

[izmirtheastarach]

From his ME3 Bio.

Kaidan commands 1st Special Operations Biotic Company a specialized arm
of covert operations within the Alliance Army. At the Alliance Special
Warfare Center and School, he takes the best and the brightest from the
Ascension Project at Grissom Academy and trains them to be elite biotic
soldiers.

He's not assigned to the Normandy. The only reason he is on Earth is to give testimony to the defense council.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 26 février 2012 - 12:54 .

[anmiro]

modeseven wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Why are we talking about the "actual" navy? The issue is the navy in the game world.

Art imitates life. That's what all this is based on.

It was my mistake for assuming that the games rank structure made any sense. All I know is how the real military rank works. If the Forum titled Shepard's rank isn't an approriate place to discuss how rank works, than I apologise.

[izmirtheastarach]

anmiro wrote...

It was my mistake for assuming that the games rank structure made any sense.

That we are completely agreed upon. I don't know why they didn't just use a system we are all familiar with. It would make a lot more sense.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 26 février 2012 - 12:57 .

[modeseven]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

anmiro wrote...

modeseven wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Why are we talking about the "actual" navy? The issue is the navy in the game world.

Art imitates life. That's what all this is based on.

It was my mistake for assuming that the games rank structure made any sense. All I know is how the real military rank works. If the Forum titled Shepard's rank isn't an approriate place to discuss how rank works, than I apologise.

That we are completely agreed upon. I don't know why they didn't just use a system we are all familiar with.

It is pretty close.I'd like to see a fleshed out chart, TBH. Thatd be cool.

[izmirtheastarach]

modeseven wrote...

It is pretty close.I'd like to see a fleshed out chart, TBH. Thatd be cool.

Someone said early in the thread that we had already put more thought into the issue then Bioware did in the first place. I believe that to be completely true.

[anmiro]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

From his ME3 Bio.

Kaidan commands 1st Special Operations Biotic Company a specialized arm
of covert operations within the Alliance Army. At the Alliance Special
Warfare Center and School, he takes the best and the brightest from the
Ascension Project at Grissom Academy and trains them to be elite biotic
soldiers.

He's not assigned to the Normandy. The only reason he is on Earth is to give testimony to the defense council.

The simplest explanation of who is in charge that I can come up with: Kaiden isnt as dumb as the council, I think he is going to listen to and fallow Shepard regardless of Rank becuase Shepard is the authority on killing Reapers. Then again, I do think that Kaiden and Ashley are idiots, so who knows whats going to happen. I say they're idiots, because they didn't trust Shepard in ME2.

[DeadPoolX]

izmirtheastarach wrote...
Shepard may command the Normandy, but he doesn't have any right to give orders to Kaidan, who could leave the ship at any time. Not only does he outrank Shepard, he's also a Spectre.

If Shepard and Kaidan weren't Spectres and Shepard was positioned as the Normandy's captain (as he is right now), then yes, he could actually give orders to someone who outranks him, like Kaidan.  That assumes Kaidan was assigned to the Normandy and didn't just "hitch a ride" more or less.

That doesn't really matter now since Kaidan is a Spectre and therefore not tied to military doctrine.  However, he'd probably follow Shepard's orders out of respect if nothing else. 

Modifié par DeadPoolMK, 26 février 2012 - 01:03 .

[izmirtheastarach]

anmiro wrote...

The simplest explanation of who is in charge that I can come up with: Kaiden isnt as dumb as the council, I think he is going to listen to and fallow Shepard regardless of Rank becuase Shepard is the authority on killing Reapers. Then again, I do think that Kaiden and Ashley are idiots, so who knows whats going to happen. I say they're idiots, because they didn't trust Shepard in ME2.

No arguments there. We know that Kaidan/Ashley will still be questioning Shepard quite a bit about his connection to Cerberus. I think you will have to put in some work to get them to trust you again. Which is annoying, because they just don't listen to reason in ME2.

[Archer]

Maybe there's a scene in game after shepard gets back to the Normandy where he basicly says to Ash/Kaiden- "My ship, my rules, dont like it then i'll drop kick you out the nearest airlock"

May have been said already but as the commanding officer of the normandy i believe naval tradition entitles shep to be refered to as a Captain and as the ships ranking officer it is possible/allowable that a higher ranking officer assigned to the ship would fall under shepard in the chain of command

Also it could be argued that Anderson technicly grants shepard a field promotion to full commander, he certainly emphasises the rank when he tells shepard- "Consider yourself reinstated...COMMANDER"

Also im begining to think that Commander is actually cannon shepards first name

As an aside Alliance naval rankings seem to be very similar to the ranking structure used in Battlestar Galactica

Modifié par eveynameiwantisfekintaken, 26 février 2012 - 01:08 .

[izmirtheastarach]

eveynameiwantisfekintaken wrote...

Maybe there's a scene in game after shepard gets back to the Normandy where he basicly says to Ash/Kaiden- "My ship, my rules, dont like it then i'll drop kick you out the nearest airlock"

There is a similar scene, in fact.

[DeadPoolX]

One thing I want to know is... what do the rank pins/emblems look like? It's nearly impossible to see any and when you do seem stripes, they're either black or gold. There's really no consistency to the order or placement, either.

I can understand not wearing anything that identifies rank while in combat; snipers always look to take out officers first. That doesn't explain any other time, though.