Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Farbautisonn wrote...
If thats the kind of help I can expect... I want Cerberus on my side. And Ill work hard to become magistratus extraordinarius, Dictator if thats what it takes.
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Sideshow Jed wrote...
I'd go with the term "human supremacist group," unless you can come up with something that better connotes the "need to dominate due to severe inadequacy issues" that is Cerberus.
Sameera wrote...
Ok I have suddenly felt the need to clear up a bit of apparant confussion.
All US Special Forces elements report to USSOCOM (Well the Marine's have MARSOC now but that still goes to SOCOM). This includes:
US Army Alpha teams: The guys out in the field, they earned the name "force multiplier" from their role as the guys who go out, live with a given group of LNs and train them for unconventional warfare. In short these are the direct combat guys and when most people think "delta force" these are the guys that they really mean, sorry but the movies screwed that one up.
US Army Bravo teams: These are the support guys for Alpha teams and Delta teams while on operations, and technically when not on operations but anyway. Basically direct support.
US Army Charlie teams: These are also a support group but more in the line of "command and control". They provide the back end for group operations.
US Army Delta teams: Yes, finally everyone's favorite group, only there are so many misconceptions about them it isn't even funny. Delta teams are units that deal in anti-terrorist and hostage rescue. Most of what people attribute to these guys are actually jobs of the Alpha teams.
There are other Army SF groups, generally speaking Rangers and in many cases 10th Mountain are included in this. Rangers are Special Forces, even so far as they answer to SOCOM for most of their missions, but not always and they are specialized light infantry. 10th Mountain is a little like this but really more just trained for mountain combat, not "teams" work.
US Marine Corps Force Recon: (FORECON) Intel gathering plain and simple. They used to also have a larger combat role but that was largely taken away by the next group, but they can still do the job if need be.
US Marine Corps Special Operations Teams: (MSOT) The combat side of things for the Marines.
Im not going to bother going through the Expeditionary Units.
US Navy SEALs: Ok, all SEAL teams answer to SOCOM. Technically there is no "Team 6", hasn't been since the 80s but they just pretty much switched to being called DEVGRU or NSWDG. They have a loose chain of command, even more so than other SF groups. They primarily answer to the Join Special Operations Command, Anyway, they aren't "outside" the chain of command, just take a slightly different path through it. These also tend to be the military component that works with the CIA.
US Navy SWCC: These are basically the support folks for the SEALs, special combat boat crews and the like. You don't hear about them as much because most operations in todays world that people think about happen very firmly on land.
Ok, sorry but there is just no way I'm going to go through the Air Force stuff in total. So in short, and what I can think of:
Pararescue: if you need saving and someone else isn't closer, well these guys will get you out.
Special Air/Tactics/Operations Wings: They fly all the crazy what have yous, everything from transporting SF folks to gunships and UAVs.
Recon: doesn't really need explenation.
Combat Control: Ground combat group that do pretty much what other SF groups do, but also figure crap out for aircraft.
I think that generally covers it, while skipping all the weather and other strange stuff.
Ok, I know I missed/skipped some things but I think I already went a bit overboard as it is. Now, all of those units answer to the military in one way or another, not directly to the government (outside of the pres, vice pres, sec of def etc. but thats all military units). Yes many of them will be linked up with intelligence groups and do missions that way but thats still with the overall command of the military in place. Some Senator isn't going to pick up the phone and suddenly have an SF team at their disposal.
Now where it does get a bit crazy is that not all Special Operations groups work for the military. The CIA has had their own trained teams of recon and combat operatives for a rather long time. (SOG being the action group). Also the FBI fields their own anti-terrorism units now days, and not just inside the US. Both recruit from the special operations branches of the military and both do much the same jobs as those branches. Just in terms of the CIA they get more of a very loose leash in what they are allowed to do. As a Cpt. of mine once said, "you can do quite a lot, as long as you don't get caught and no one writes a *** **** report about it." Of coruse he was speaking to the nature of special operations when saying that but it stands to reason in the non military world. If it isn't on paper, it didn't happen.
It seems as though N7 are military based special operations teams. Doesn't make them any less effective, or limit what they would be capable of. The only limits on them are those that would be placed by the government/military so if in this future of ME they give them a very high degree of operational freedom then why develop yet another group to do the same. You can have these folks do all the crazy stuff you want, provided your willing to let them and set up their command/support structures to make it possible. It seems if anything that the N7 guys/gals need a recon arm, unless i'v missed something. They seem like the action arm of a SO group, whose doing the deep recon work for them? I suppose they could be just winging it, who knows and it is a game.
Ohh wow, sorry wasn't expecting it to be quite this long of a post.
Saphra Deden wrote...
Sideshow Jed wrote...
I'd go with the term "human supremacist group," unless you can come up with something that better connotes the "need to dominate due to severe inadequacy issues" that is Cerberus.
They are xenonationalists, not supremacists.
Calling them supremacists is just propaganda.
Saphra Deden wrote...
Total Biscuit wrote...
Given that I know the explanation behind how it's happening, I like the build up and foreshadowing of how Cerberus is suddenly getting so many minions. Adds a nice bit of mystery to the plot, and twists
behind it.
Oh, and rest assured, it doesn't contradict Retribution, and those blindly supporting Cerberus are just being naively idiotic gits again.
Not one thing you've said is true other than your opinion of the "foreshadowing". Retribution has a whole has largely been ignored by ME3.
Saphra Deden wrote...
Sideshow Jed wrote...
I'd go with the term "human supremacist group," unless you can come up with something that better connotes the "need to dominate due to severe inadequacy issues" that is Cerberus.
They are xenonationalists, not supremacists.
Calling them supremacists is just propaganda.
Total Biscuit wrote...
Nationalism is just racism you agree with.
It's the narrow minded brother of patriotism.
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Total Biscuit wrote...
Nationalism is just racism you agree with.
It's the narrow minded brother of patriotism.
phimseto wrote...
Total Biscuit wrote...
Nationalism is just racism you agree with.
It's the narrow minded brother of patriotism.
I generally agree, but then too much in the other direction doesn't cut it either. The Council is worthless and to use a more real world example how is that who EU thing working out for Europe? Sublimation of national priorities for some perceived greater good isn't always a good or even sane course of action.
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Total Biscuit wrote...
Yes it is, both where TIM suddenly got the money from to pay for all this new stuff, and how he suddenly has all these troops under his command is explained in the leaks. Short answer; he's a ruthless bastard.
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
greatgeek wrote...
The Council doesn't have much authority over the governments of member or associate races, it's basically he U.N. Security Council.
didymos1120 wrote...
Zkyire wrote...
"A confiscated recruitment video included in the report states the Cerberus mentality plainly: “Other species may talk with us, trade with us, even live with us, but when a crisis comes, we are on our own.”
..that's actually true.
The Quarians can attest to that.
It's not always true. For instance, the Council stepped in to stop the turians from wrecking Earth. Of course, that was a relatively low-risk situation for them to get involved with.
Saphra Deden wrote...
Total Biscuit wrote...
Nationalism is just racism you agree with.
It's the narrow minded brother of patriotism.
No, it isn't. Nationalism and patriotism aren't racism by any means. They are not about race, but about country, and often of culture.
Where-as patriotism is perhaps passive, nationalism is pro-active patriotism.
In Mass Effect this gets a bit muddy because race and nation are the same thing as that is the way the galaxy is designed.
It is the natural state of things, if you ask me. However there is nothing to be ashamed of about it. Different species have different cultures and have different interests they must pursue to meet their needs.
The salarian STG is a salarian nationalist group. The Council represents nationalism for its three member races. It's an alliance of convenience to best meet their interests at the exclusion of all others if necessary.
If you oppose nationalism then I ask what alternative you are offering.
People misuse the term "Fascism" to refer to the Hitlerites, to Pinochet's regime, to Bak Jeonghui's ephemeral Korean state, and to all sorts of movements that are vaguely nationalistic and rightist - why would you expect them to properly employ the NSDAP? In reality, National Socialism in its German sense (best referred to as Hitlerism) is such a narrow ideology that it almost certainly could never have a meaningful parallel in the future. The real reason that this dilution is distasteful is not because it would devalue the term and make it impossible to use to describe a future regime; it is distasteful because it is simply incorrect, plain and simple.Farbautisonn wrote...
A plethora of other words have been taken hostage and misused and misrepresented. Usually derogatory terms. Terms that used to mean something. Words that used to be a "hexmark". Now? Now people shrug their shoulders.
What are you going to call the national socialists the day the national socialism really rears its head again? What other word is there, that has such a meaning of vile and hatefull phobia as the original? Thats right. Nothing There is no other word. You took the word for "Devil" and rendered it inert. Grats.
Saphra Deden wrote...
Total Biscuit wrote...
Yes it is, both where TIM suddenly got the money from to pay for all this new stuff, and how he suddenly has all these troops under his command is explained in the leaks. Short answer; he's a ruthless bastard.
No, none of it has been explained or justified.
Saying, "Reaper tech" or "Collector tech" is not enough. It doesn't explain where Cerberus got the means to recruit and equip so many people. It doesn't explain where they got the ships and weapons. It doesn't explain how they did all this in less than year! It doesn't explain how they were able to do all this without being thwarted by the Alliance, Council, and other hostile agencies. The bigger Cerberus builds itself up the harder it is to hide.
Modifié par ODST 5723, 25 février 2012 - 12:25 .
Total Biscuit wrote...
Saphra Deden wrote...
Sideshow Jed wrote...
I'd go with the term "human supremacist group," unless you can come up with something that better connotes the "need to dominate due to severe inadequacy issues" that is Cerberus.
They are xenonationalists, not supremacists.
Calling them supremacists is just propaganda.
Nationalism is just racism you agree with.
It's the narrow minded brother of patriotism.
GracefulChicken wrote...
TIM has always been one of my favourite characters. He's amazing and I support what he does, in theory, but I dont like how he did it. Still, I like Cerberus a lot. I actually thought about getting a Cerberus logo tattoo once. Cerberus can do no wrong. They brought us Phantoms, right?
ODST 5723 wrote...
Saphra Deden wrote...
Total Biscuit wrote...
Yes it is, both where TIM suddenly got the money from to pay for all this new stuff, and how he suddenly has all these troops under his command is explained in the leaks. Short answer; he's a ruthless bastard.
No, none of it has been explained or justified.
Saying, "Reaper tech" or "Collector tech" is not enough. It doesn't explain where Cerberus got the means to recruit and equip so many people. It doesn't explain where they got the ships and weapons. It doesn't explain how they did all this in less than year! It doesn't explain how they were able to do all this without being thwarted by the Alliance, Council, and other hostile agencies. The bigger Cerberus builds itself up the harder it is to hide.
First and foremost, it doesn't have to explain about ships, weapons and gear. Those can be mass-produced efficiently in the future. It's the research and materials that are important and there's no indications whatsoever that Cerberus hadn't been stockpiling materials for years. It's clear that they were performing a significant amount of research long before ME3. Research that included ancient weapons and with a Reaper "corpse." They had access to some Collector tech prior to ME2 and gained mmore. They had access to portions of Sovereign which allowed them to reverse engineer new technology and to develop an advanced AI in the form of EDI.
To date, we're not seeing reports of Cerberus Carriers and Dreadnoughts. We've seen what they're capable of with the SR2. We've heard hints of advanced fighter groups. A variety of ground troops including significant and experimental augmentations and gear. Biotic experiments. Advanced ground-vehicles like the Hammerhead. We've also seen Cerberus bases which already exist all over the galaxy from space stations to secluded planet-side bases.
The missing component is the manpower. Where did they get the manpower and funds?
I'd venture a guess that it's a combination of 3 things.
Zealous recruitment due to the Arrival incident foreshadowing possible major armed conflict w/ the batarians. This could include increased donors some major financial moves.
Prothean, Collector and Reaper tech salvaged from various finds over the years. Some of which could have been sold if funds were needed. They did end up w/ that front company that was involved in much of the research on the prothean archives on Mars, including almost exlusive rights to research some of the newly opened sections.
Indoctrination. Cerberus has been experimenting w/ control for years. It seems obvious that TIM would attempt to replicate his own enhancement which doesn't appear to have led to him being indoctrinated, however, Saren's indoctrination occurred over a period of years with influence so subltle that he wasn't even sure if it had happened. Given that we know he'll be working w/ the Reapers at some point, I'd wager that he embraced indoctrination tech as a means of gaining more Reaper tech and finding a way to use it against them. Thus, in addition to willing recruits, perhaps TIM picked up where the Collectors left off and started forced recruitment of colonies in the Terminus. He clearly knows that the Reaper threat is imminent and he's clearly in favor of using Reaper and Collector tech to further his goals.
Saphra Deden wrote...
Total Biscuit wrote...
Given that I know the explanation behind how it's happening, I like the build up and foreshadowing of how Cerberus is suddenly getting so many minions. Adds a nice bit of mystery to the plot, and twists
behind it.
Oh, and rest assured, it doesn't contradict Retribution, and those blindly supporting Cerberus are just being naively idiotic gits again.
Not one thing you've said is true other than your opinion of the "foreshadowing". Retribution has a whole has largely been ignored by ME3.
Zkyire wrote...
TIM said bringing Shepard back and building the Normandy SR2 almost bankrupt Cerberus.
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