306 réponses à ce sujet

[Total Biscuit]

TIM gets the money for the new ships, weapons and tech by selling something. Something worth alot to someone with alot of cash.

The new recruits are down to more than just really good marketing.

Like I say, there's reasons Cerberus are suddenly able to do this stuff, even if Retribution is still canon, and they lost alot of resources and manpower between games.

[thetawaves90]

It'll be interesting to see how the expansion of Cerberus ingame relates to your decisions in the other games...right back to the destruction of facilities in ME1 to the obvious denial of Reaper-tech in ME2. Moreso if your decision to involve Alliance with a lot of the intel you find regarding Cerberus has led them to finance and support them in some way in an attempt to repurpose and build upon an established organisation as opposed to wiping it out entirely.

Sanguine wrote...

Cerberus found the star forge?

*pictures TIM running around in max'd out Sith Robes and dual-wielding lightsabers*

[General User]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

I doubt they're stupid enough to let their recruitment efforts be so traceable as to actually jeopardize anything of importance.

You cannot recruit this many people and keep it a secret. Much less train them and equip them and actually use them.

It's ridiculous.

Perhaps the Terminus colonies, who have Cerberus to thank for their very existence, are the sources of this manpower pool.

[Ninjapino]

It's interesting to see this thread and to see how many people actually argue on the side of Cerberus. No matter your opinion on them, you have to admit that this definitely shows how easily they would get supporters. We know that they are waist deep in Alliance politics and get a ton of money and support that way and now we can see how they get all that support just by people arguing in this thread. I think this just shows how well Bioware was at creating this universe the they politics that inhabit it.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

thetawaves90 wrote...

It'll be interesting to see how the expansion of Cerberus ingame relates to your decisions in the other games...right back to the destruction of facilities in ME1 to the obvious denial of Reaper-tech in ME2. Moreso if your decision to involve Alliance with a lot of the intel you find regarding Cerberus has led them to finance and support them in some way in an attempt to repurpose and build upon an established organisation as opposed to wiping it out entirely.

Sanguine wrote...

Cerberus found the star forge?

*pictures TIM running around in max'd out Sith Robes and dual-wielding lightsabers*

After defeating the reapers and 2 millenniums, 'mass effect' will be called 'the force'. First Jedi appear, then the traitor dark jedi ... After 10000 years the first lightsaber will be created.

And it's plausible story!

[Farbautisonn]

daqs wrote...
 The real reason that this dilution is distasteful is not because it would devalue the term and make it impossible to use to describe a future regime; it is distasteful because it is simply incorrect, plain and simple.

-Well...that too...

[Arppis]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Saphra's objection is more on the ground of the narrative foreshadowing and cues, of which there were a number that Cerberus would be a smaller presence.

Then again, Bioware had two games/DLC that suggested the Batarians would be a Big Deal.

Exactly. Everything up until Deception/Leak suggested Cerberus would be weaker and in a smaller role in ME3 (keep in mind weakness can mean desperation) and that the batarians would be major antagonists, what with the terrorist attacks in ME1 and ME2 and then the suggestion of war in Arrival. However none of that materializes and all Arrival serves as is a cheap reason to have Shepard on trial on Earth. Even in that capacity it fails because Arrival was never necessary for that. Even before Arrival it was clear that the Alliance wanted to interrogate Shepard.

Reapers appearing to the galaxy can change a lot of things. For example, Batarians are so isolated that they might have been wiped out already. And if Illusive Man has somehow allied themselves with ther Reapers, it might explain the quantity of Soldiers.

But let's see when the game comes out. Shall we?

[RVallant]

Given the council is keen to avoid 'human matters' and were pretty knobbish towards their first human spectre on occassion as well as what they've done to Anderson if you picked him, is it any surprise that Cerebus' uses that angle as propaganda? It's free PR.

I don't agree with Cerebus myself but if I wasn't Shepard, just some lonely colonist or Earth nut or Alliance soldier, I'd be with them in a shot just going off the media reports in game

[Dean_the_Young]

Sajuro wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The actual Cerberus (re)expansion begins after the Retribution story ends. The means will be addressed in the game, but they're very much things that weren't known beforehand.

Retribution was a fun read so I'm very glad that Bioware rendered the entire experience pointless.

Right. And if they had gone down the "Cerberus is a total non-entity" route, we'd all be complaining that BioWare killed off the awesome pro-human black ops organization in a peripheral novel rather than in-game.

Make TIM a Spectre or not (better than just -snip-)

Spectres only have that power because the council chooses to look the other way on their actions, they could just as easily unseal the records and go after Cerberus right after the war with the Reapers.

Sure, but that would be locking the barn after the horse ran out. By that point not only has Cerberus had X amount of time to get away with what it wants more brazenly, but the Council has also already publicly conceded Cerberus a certain amount of legitimacy and status.

Just look at Shepard, for example. Even if you don't get your Spectre status reinstated, the fact that Shepard was a Spectre is more than enough to put him/her in a different class than most people. They can take away the title, but not the past.

Plus, abusing the **** out of SPECTRE status and exposing the limits of the privilages could be used to wreck the institution in the post-war. People tolerate the Spectre privilages because the Spectres have a overall good reputation, but at the same time the Council doesn't stand behind Spectres to the hilt when they garner enough controversy. If Cerberus ruins the reputation of the Spectres by making them synonymous with racism, blatant assassinations, open and legal theft, and other abuses, one of two things will begin to happen.

First is that the species during the war refuse to accept the Spectre privilages and begin to obstruct/shoot Cerberus, Spectre or not. While this may be perfectly reasonable in the short term, it also sets a precedent for xpecies selectively tolerating the Council's best agents, meaning that the right-hands of the Council can no longer go where they want and do what they need to because the locals may not respect the title.

Second is that after the war, the Spectres are held to a much tighter leash, if not outright legislated in what they can and can't do. The Council and the public's toleration level for the actions of a Spectre is so hyper-allergic that the Spectres become glorified STG, politically limited.



If the Spectres can't have their traditional freedoms of movement and action that are key to making them more successful, then the Spectres are weakened. The Spectres being weakened benefits those who the Spectres are particularly effective against vis-a-vis the other agencies who would normally otherwise hide under corrupt legislation and laws... such as a certain pro-Human group.

Even in losing their status, Cerberus could weaken one of their more dangerous adversaries in the post war.





Of course, that assumes that Cerberus plays the Spectre status to its most extreme. It could also play it straight: once inside the system, Cerberus could simply take advantage of the Council's own loopholes that already exist, keeping their harmful activities low-key and out of sight. Unethical science legally done on Noveria, trade drugs openlys through Illium, keep the murders low-key and largely out of sight.

Heck, they produce fewer explosions that Commander Shepard, really.

Cerberus could certainly frame its activities as good for the galaxy by extension of being good for a major Council species in particular. The Council already is prepared to accept a lot of flaws, open corruption, and distasteful politics so long as the job gets done... and the addition of Cerberus in many respects would give the Council new abilities of a separate Tier-1 intelligence agency ala the Shadow Broker or STG, not only in Council space but also in the Terminus.

If Cerberus pretended to be moderate for a time (say for a Human-dominated Council?), it could gain creeping tolerance and acceptance within the existing Council system for legalizing abuses in Council interests.

[The Cult Of Shepard]

Cerberus is expanding? ... I'll soon put a stop to that come March 8th. *(readies M-3 Predator)*

Modifié par The Cult Of Shepard, 26 février 2012 - 12:18 .

[Customz]

Farbautisonn wrote...

daqs wrote...
 The real reason that this dilution is distasteful is not because it would devalue the term and make it impossible to use to describe a future regime; it is distasteful because it is simply incorrect, plain and simple.

-Well...that too...

People tend to relate nationalism to racism because, well, they tend to be related. Most national movements tend to not simply want "what's best" for their nation, but a return to when it was best, trying to remove all external influence regardless of its effects on the nation (even if it's now also actually part of the nation). This usually ends up with calls for removal of foreigners, for return to the original nation's people, etc.

[Farbautisonn]

Customz wrote...

People tend to relate nationalism to racism because, well, they tend to be related. Most national movements tend to not simply want "what's best" for their nation, but a return to when it was best, trying to remove all external influence regardless of its effects on the nation (even if it's now also actually part of the nation). This usually ends up with calls for removal of foreigners, for return to the original nation's people, etc.

Only problem is that nationalism can be many things. Take the US for instance. A great big friggen "salad" of different races, colours and religions. However you have one thing in common. Its the "America... **** year" attitude. You are americans first and foremost, the rest second. Its such a strong and yes, nationalistic, sentiment that it is percieved as blatently arrogant and obnoxious in other nations.

Sure Nationalism can take on the part of xenophobia. The part of racism even. Does not however mean that Nationalism de facto leads to Racism.

[Gabey5]

Well the reaper threat changes everything. Stealth was only necessary during peacetime.

[SKiLLYWiLLY2]

It's obvious, the cerberus troops are clones.

[Mahrac]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I still say the "TIM Spectre" idea is bad and that he should instead re-activate the Klendagon gun and force some concessions that way.

Because that couldn't possibly kill any human civillians, jack their kill numbers into the millions, and bring th entire galexy down on them.

Now i kind of want them to, to see if you still support them after it's fired

[Dean_the_Young]

Customz wrote...

Farbautisonn wrote...

daqs wrote...
 The real reason that this dilution is distasteful is not because it would devalue the term and make it impossible to use to describe a future regime; it is distasteful because it is simply incorrect, plain and simple.

-Well...that too...

People tend to relate nationalism to racism because, well, they tend to be related. Most national movements tend to not simply want "what's best" for their nation, but a return to when it was best, trying to remove all external influence regardless of its effects on the nation (even if it's now also actually part of the nation). This usually ends up with calls for removal of foreigners, for return to the original nation's people, etc.

Many people relate nationalism to racism because the vast majority of the early nations were based on distinct racial-cultural groups. Germans, French, Spanish, Persian, Japanese, etc. For a long time, a nationality was effectively an ethnicity.  While nationalism (focus on your nation) was never the same as racism (belief of inherent superiority/inferiority based on race), the fact that both were ordered along ethnic lines made far more overlap.


The rise of nationalism actually broadened the scope to be more inclusive in regards to racial composition. Becoming more inclusive of minorities (so long as they embraced the same culture), ethnic category increasingly mattered less than cultural.

The US, for example, has long since passed the time when 'white' enveloped all the European ethnicities, 'Christian' subplanted the once devisive issue of religion, and even now few people seriously believe American culture will disappear even as the nation transfers into one where whites are no longer a majority.



The Council system has no real equivalent of a mixed-species government, however. Inside Council space, identity is still race=nation: if you are Human, you are the responsibility of the Alliance. If you are Turian, the Heirarchy.

The only places in the galaxy that can genuinely claim to be multi-racial are worlds in the Terminus... and those aren't culturally united, often even on their own planets, or lack effective governance and culture.

[someone else]

There are really only two alternative explanations for the "sudden" expansion of Cerebrus into a major threat to the Citadel hegemony

1. Reports of its demise (or diminishment) were grossly overstated - Retribution notwithstanding, Cerebrus had more than sufficient muscle to take Omega in relatively short order. Given the impossibly compressed time frame in which events unfold not only from ME1 to ME3, but - 26 years from first contact to galactic dominance? 150 years from Today until effective FTL travel?? - Well that's another issue - and in light of the willing(?) suspension of disbelief required, there is the most plausible explanation - unless

2. TIM is really Saruman, and the husks are really highly modded Uruk-Hai...

[Aimi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Many people relate nationalism to racism because the vast majority of the early nations were based on distinct racial-cultural groups. Germans, French, Spanish, Persian, Japanese, etc. For a long time, a nationality was effectively an ethnicity.  While nationalism (focus on your nation) was never the same as racism (belief of inherent superiority/inferiority based on race), the fact that both were ordered along ethnic lines made far more overlap.

Quite a long way away from Stein, Herder, Lessing, and Humboldt.

[Customz]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Only problem is that nationalism can be many things. Take the US for instance. A great big friggen "salad" of different races, colours and religions. However you have one thing in common. Its the "America... **** year" attitude. You are americans first and foremost, the rest second. Its such a strong and yes, nationalistic, sentiment that it is percieved as blatently arrogant and obnoxious in other nations.

Sure Nationalism can take on the part of xenophobia. The part of racism even. Does not however mean that Nationalism de facto leads to Racism.

Actually I thins it's the other way around. Nationalism "de jure", if you will, does not lead to racism, but in practice it's the other way around. Even if you consider the USA, you'll notice that the most fervently nationalist groups end connected to racist groups. Consider the situation with illegal immigration right now and how all latinos are treated.

Yes, it makes sense to wish the best for your country, and to work towards it, but most nationalist groups seem to be more of isolationists than anything else. As for the american attitude, i guess we could call it the now much more acceptable patriotism.

[Dean_the_Young]

Mahrac wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

I still say the "TIM Spectre" idea is bad and that he should instead re-activate the Klendagon gun and force some concessions that way.

Because that couldn't possibly kill any human civillians, jack their kill numbers into the millions, and bring th entire galexy down on them.

Now i kind of want them to, to see if you still support them after it's fired

Personally I doubt that there are millions of Humans on the Citadel.

Or Pavlon. Or Thessia. Or...


Of course, the point of a superweapon is the threat, not the actual usage of it... even if you don't also remember that if the Council had the ability to wipe out Cerberus, it would have done so long ago.


But to be a useful instrument of blackmail and/or terror, all Cerberus has to do is show both an ability and willingness to use it... which could just as well be done by carving a rift valley in the moon of Thessia. A warning shot has all sorts of uses that a shoot-to-kill first shot doesn't have.



Of course, open terrorism really isn't Cerberus's thing.

[Dean_the_Young]

daqs wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Many people relate nationalism to racism because the vast majority of the early nations were based on distinct racial-cultural groups. Germans, French, Spanish, Persian, Japanese, etc. For a long time, a nationality was effectively an ethnicity.  While nationalism (focus on your nation) was never the same as racism (belief of inherent superiority/inferiority based on race), the fact that both were ordered along ethnic lines made far more overlap.

Quite a long way away from Stein, Herder, Lessing, and Humboldt.

Hm? I'm afraid you have me at a disadvantage. I... think those were early (or not so early) ethnic-nationalists?


Are you commenting that the concept of nationalism has evolved past ethnic lines is a large change?

[Mahrac]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Mahrac wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

I still say the "TIM Spectre" idea is bad and that he should instead re-activate the Klendagon gun and force some concessions that way.

Because that couldn't possibly kill any human civillians, jack their kill numbers into the millions, and bring th entire galexy down on them.

Now i kind of want them to, to see if you still support them after it's fired

Personally I doubt that there are millions of Humans on the Citadel.

Or Pavlon. Or Thessia. Or...


Of course, the point of a superweapon is the threat, not the actual usage of it... even if you don't also remember that if the Council had the ability to wipe out Cerberus, it would have done so long ago.


But to be a useful instrument of blackmail and/or terror, all Cerberus has to do is show both an ability and willingness to use it... which could just as well be done by carving a rift valley in the moon of Thessia. A warning shot has all sorts of uses that a shoot-to-kill first shot doesn't have.



Of course, open terrorism really isn't Cerberus's thing.

Never sail that all of the million would be human.
 
As for blackmail, if, say, the batarians found out, they would be all over it.

Also, the council has the capability, two huge armies, commandos, STG, and spectres, they just haven't deemed Cerberus a 'threat' read: they're cowards. Threatening their homeworld, or any settled world, would turn most of the galaxy against them: no one sane will use a nuke today because no one else would back them up afterwards.

I can't see any reason they's make The Illusive Man a specrtre anyway, known terrorist and all.

[I can Hackett]

Shermos wrote...

BlackDoomShadow wrote...

So this confirms Cerberus's sudden army isn't random and is actually addressed in the game.

It was never really random. Cerberus expansion was being hinted at even in the early part of ME2. The expansion only accelerated after the end of ME2, it didn't come from nowhere.

This was also very clear if you read the Invasion comics, they now have a major base of operations [SPOILER] show of hands who thinks we will be helping Aria take Omega back[ENDSPOILER]

Modifié par I can Hackett, 25 février 2012 - 03:24 .