306 réponses à ce sujet

[I can Hackett]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I still say the "TIM Spectre" idea is bad and that he should instead re-activate the Klendagon gun and force some concessions that way.

Dont you remember TIM saying that weapon was "defunct" here its at 2:27

[Dean_the_Young]

Customz wrote...

Actually I thins it's the other way around. Nationalism "de jure", if you will, does not lead to racism, but in practice it's the other way around. Even if you consider the USA, you'll notice that the most fervently nationalist groups end connected to racist groups. Consider the situation with illegal immigration right now and how all latinos are treated.

Consider also that nativism has been opposed towards immigrants of all races and nations of origins, especially in times of economic turmoil.

Racist groups often take the extreme end of nationalists, but that's far from saying they're connected. A fringe, by definition, has to be closer to something in particular, but it doesn't imply organizational connection or sympathy.

Socialists are often linked with Unions. In the US, the Unions are tied to the Democratic party in particular. The US Democratic party, partisan accusations aside, isn't a socialist or communitarian party or in alliance with one.

Yes, it makes sense to wish the best for your country, and to work towards it, but most nationalist groups seem to be more of isolationists than anything else. As for the american attitude, i guess we could call it the now much more acceptable patriotism.

The nature nationalism takes is highly dependent on where in the world you are. In the US of living memory, nationalism has been tied with an expansive foreign policy, in part because of the US's status as a superpower.

In Europe, however, where the dominant trend has been the suppression of nationalism in the creation of the European project, nationalism asserts itself in the rejection of the European intigration.

In Latin America, long affected by the weight of the United States, nationalism in some countries comes in the form of vocal anti-Americanism to various degrees, and in the case of the Chavez block in the alliance with anyone who opposes the US.

In Iran, nationalism comes in the form of support of the prestige project that promises to make Iran a great power, the nuclear program (civilian or military).

In Japan, nationalism comes in the form that, well, maybe building a military wouldn't be such a bad idea after all, just in case.

In China, nationalism is increasingly a populist movement that pushes for a more assertive foreign policy in establishing Chinese pride and power.



Nationalism can be varied within a country, and depends highly on context.

[Dean_the_Young]

I can Hackett wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

I still say the "TIM Spectre" idea is bad and that he should instead re-activate the Klendagon gun and force some concessions that way.

Dont you remember TIM saying that weapon was "defunct" here its at 2:27

And it couldn't be repaired because...

[Customz]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Customz wrote...

Consider the situation with illegal immigration right now and how all latinos are treated.

Oh please.

You think illegal immigrants are treated poorly? Why don't you try going to Mexico and seeing how they treat their illegal immigrants. What a crock.

I wasnt commenting on the way illigal immigrants are treated, but on the
way legal americans who are also latinos tend to also not be considered
"nationals".

[I can Hackett]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I can Hackett wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

I still say the "TIM Spectre" idea is bad and that he should instead re-activate the Klendagon gun and force some concessions that way.

Dont you remember TIM saying that weapon was "defunct" here its at 2:27

And it couldn't be repaired because...

Idk.. way to above our tech grade....we tried doing that with sovereigns remains and all we got was the Thanix cannon

[Aimi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Hm? I'm afraid you have me at a disadvantage. I... think those were early (or not so early) ethnic-nationalists?


Are you commenting that the concept of nationalism has evolved past ethnic lines is a large change?

More or less. Herder and the rest, while certainly not chauvinist, did believe that the nation-state was the ideal political body, specifically as defined by language. Even so, their concern was less with keeping non-Germans "out" (that came more with Napoleon, and later, the "Wacht am Rhein" crisis) and more with uniting the disparate territories of the Holy Roman Empire into a single state. And even they weren't all that representative of German nationalism for a very long time - insofar as it existed, especially before the War of 1870, it tended to be a celebration of regional diversity and local centers more than Großdeutschland. Chauvinistic nationalism, by and large, came later - with the 1880s and 1890s, the Alldeutscher Verband, Karl Lüger, etc. 

I guess the point was that I agreed with you - modern civic-nationalistic constructs like the United States or China certainly break the old mold - but noted that even ethnic nationalism is hardly intrinsically a "racist" or "xenophobic" concept.

[someone else]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
 ...American culture...

^oxymoron

not@Dean_ the_Young:

the facile equating of "nationalism" with "racism" can only be made by those ignorant of history or who simply do not or refuse to understand the meaning of the words - 

I am sufficiently aged to remember when "wars of national liberation" were considered to be on the cutting edge of social evolution, and when "nationalism" was more closely associated with "patriotism."   Moreover, I will challenge anyone to assert that "racism" is either the sole property of the Caucasian people, nor that prejudice and bias are somehow pathological abberations occuring only defective or damaged individuals.

That most ethnically and culturally distinct group tend to think better of themselves as a group than others is a near universal human trait - and does not btw validate the kind of fanatic supremacist mentality that leads to structural discrimination, exploitation and at the extreme 'ethnic cleansing', death camps, killing fields, etc, etc.  Believing (secretly, as most of us do ) that we are just a bit more special than others think us to be, does not generally led to a desire to wipe everyone else out. 

I think it is more than arguable that a degree of racism is a positive trait, evolutionarily speaking, and simply is an extention of  familial allegiances.    If you love your family more than your neighbors, guess who's genome you value more than others?

[Dean_the_Young]

Mahrac wrote...

Never said that all of the million would be human.

I thought that was implied, but like I said I also don't view it as likely either.
 

As for blackmail, if, say, the batarians found out, they would be all over it.

Not clear on what you're trying to say.

Also, the council has the capability, two huge armies, commandos, STG, and spectres, they just haven't deemed Cerberus a 'threat' read: they're cowards.

No, they deem Cerberus a threat but can't find them. Besides that Cerberus hides out in the Terminus as well, where the Council is terrified to go, the fact is that Cerberus is well hidden: it takes a significant security leak (like the Grayson files in Retribution) for them to be able to draw up a target list.


The question has never been whether the Council could beat Cerberus in a fight: the relationship is about the same as the United States versus the Iraqi insurgency. The US never beat the Iraqi insurgency.

Threatening their homeworld, or any settled world, would turn most of the galaxy against them: no one sane will use a nuke today because no one else would back them up afterwards.

That presumes the person using the nuke feels the need for others to back them up outweighing the usage of the nuke. Like, say, North Korea's nuke test.

Besides which, the galaxy isn't united behind the Council, nor is Cerberus particularly effected by Council space being against it because Council space is already opposed to Cerberus. Cerberus isn't an open actor that relies on public legitimacy.

I can't see any reason they's make The Illusive Man a specrtre anyway, known terrorist and all.

Because TIM would be holding the MacGuffin they need for galactic survival.

[Dean_the_Young]

I can Hackett wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I can Hackett wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

I still say the "TIM Spectre" idea is bad and that he should instead re-activate the Klendagon gun and force some concessions that way.

Dont you remember TIM saying that weapon was "defunct" here its at 2:27

And it couldn't be repaired because...

Idk.. way to above our tech grade....we tried doing that with sovereigns remains and all we got was the Thanix cannon

Since the point was to remake Sovereign's main gun, not Sovereign itself, you're using an undisputed success in reverse engineering as an argument against repair?

[Dean_the_Young]

daqs wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Hm? I'm afraid you have me at a disadvantage. I... think those were early (or not so early) ethnic-nationalists?


Are you commenting that the concept of nationalism has evolved past ethnic lines is a large change?

More or less. Herder and the rest, while certainly not chauvinist, did believe that the nation-state was the ideal political body, specifically as defined by language. Even so, their concern was less with keeping non-Germans "out" (that came more with Napoleon, and later, the "Wacht am Rhein" crisis) and more with uniting the disparate territories of the Holy Roman Empire into a single state. And even they weren't all that representative of German nationalism for a very long time - insofar as it existed, especially before the War of 1870, it tended to be a celebration of regional diversity and local centers more than Großdeutschland. Chauvinistic nationalism, by and large, came later - with the 1880s and 1890s, the Alldeutscher Verband, Karl Lüger, etc. 

I guess the point was that I agreed with you - modern civic-nationalistic constructs like the United States or China certainly break the old mold - but noted that even ethnic nationalism is hardly intrinsically a "racist" or "xenophobic" concept.

You, Ma'am, have a fascinating mind. I hope you never lose it.

[Farbautisonn]

-Well... In my nation, and indeed Europe wide, extreme socialism has been the root philosphy of many terrorist groups. RAF, The Red Brigades, Our native Blekingegade Banden, etc.

Does that mean that Socialism lends itself well to terror? Not de jure. Not even de Facto.

Just means that extremism on both and indeed any side, has at its core intolerance. Intolerance of others based on race, creed, sexuality, religion etc.

Now in my own nation and in one of the socialist fora I sometimes go to pick a fight, it would be vehemently denied that socialism in any form, even the most extreme kind lends itself well to terror. However Socialism in its extremist forms weather it be from terror to governance has significantly many more casulties on its concience than nationalism. At least over the last 100 years.

[Farbautisonn]

daqs wrote...

More or less. Herder and the rest, while certainly not chauvinist, did believe that the nation-state was the ideal political body, specifically as defined by language. Even so, their concern was less with keeping non-Germans "out" (that came more with Napoleon, and later, the "Wacht am Rhein" crisis) and more with uniting the disparate territories of the Holy Roman Empire into a single state. And even they weren't all that representative of German nationalism for a very long time - insofar as it existed, especially before the War of 1870, it tended to be a celebration of regional diversity and local centers more than Großdeutschland. Chauvinistic nationalism, by and large, came later - with the 1880s and 1890s, the Alldeutscher Verband, Karl Lüger, etc. 

I guess the point was that I agreed with you - modern civic-nationalistic constructs like the United States or China certainly break the old mold - but noted that even ethnic nationalism is hardly intrinsically a "racist" or "xenophobic" concept.

[Dean_the_Young]

Actually, TIM doesn't directly lie very often. He's big on letting people come to their own conclusions, but his actual factually-incorrect claims are very, very few. In ME2, the only time he directly lies is in claiming the Turian distress beacon.

The man is evasive, and manipulative, but not prone to lying.



Of course, he also just said that the klendagon canon was defunct. He never said anything about it being unrepairable...

[ODST 5723]

Zkyire wrote...
TIM said bringing Shepard back and building the Normandy SR2 almost bankrupt Cerberus.

..how can they then build a massive army and fleet of ships (ships that are admittedly not as advanced as the Normandy but still).

"Almost" is the operative word.  The fact is that it didn't bankrupt them.  So take that off the table and think about this.

They own companies which perform advanced military R&D and an aerospace firm in addition to a bank, a pharmacorp and had the money to not only pay of Aria to gain a throughway through the system but to build significant bases on the other side of the Omega-4 relay and to take over Omega.

If they could do that, then funding's no longer a limitation.  As for a fleet, clearly they have their own shipyards in addition to the ones from Cord-Hislop.  A military buildup could occur in secret over time rather than get done all at once.  Look at how many secret bases we've already seen of theirs.  Look at how much money and tech went into them.  And those are just the ones we know about.  They built the SR2 in secret.  They even had a secret research station on a secret Reaper shell.  The point is, the galaxy is vast enough to hide a fleet of ships.  We're not talking about a fleet the size of the quarians.

Building up troop gear and weapons isn't that difficult with on-ship fabricators.  It requires design specs, licenses and the raw materials as we saw w/ the SR2.  They clearly have the equipment and knowhow. So the real question is... where and how are they getting the fresh bodies that are fighting under the Cerberus banner?

Everything else seems plausible.

[ODST 5723]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Actually, TIM doesn't directly lie very often. He's big on letting people come to their own conclusions, but his actual factually-incorrect claims are very, very few. In ME2, the only time he directly lies is in claiming the Turian distress beacon.

The man is evasive, and manipulative, but not prone to lying.



Of course, he also just said that the klendagon canon was defunct. He never said anything about it being unrepairable...

Lies of omission are lies as well.  So he is prone to lying.  And I'm sure he cheats on his taxes.

[Farbautisonn]

ODST 5723 wrote...

Lies of omission are lies as well.  So he is prone to lying.  And I'm sure he cheats on his taxes.

-Prolly cheats at Yatzy too.

[ODST 5723]

exactly

[Dean_the_Young]

ODST 5723 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Actually, TIM doesn't directly lie very often. He's big on letting people come to their own conclusions, but his actual factually-incorrect claims are very, very few. In ME2, the only time he directly lies is in claiming the Turian distress beacon.

The man is evasive, and manipulative, but not prone to lying.



Of course, he also just said that the klendagon canon was defunct. He never said anything about it being unrepairable...

Lies of omission are lies as well.  So he is prone to lying. 

A lie of omission only qualifies when done expressily to remove critical, contextual information a person needs. It isn't the same as not telling everything one knows, nor is it synonymous with letting people come to their own conclusions.

Telling Shepard that there was a Turian distress beacon is a lie. Not telling Shepard that Horizon was a manufactured trap is not.

[ODST 5723]

If that's the fantasyland you want to live in, carry on

[Dean_the_Young]

If by 'fantasyland' you mean 'how communication works', sure. So do you, and so does everyone else who has neither the ability or the desire to share absolutely all contextual information about everything.

You're not exactly posting your personal identity information yourself, or how your day went, or why you're posting with a Collector avatar rather than a personal photo, but it would be absurd to say that you're lying by omission.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 25 février 2012 - 05:46 .

[Mahrac]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Mahrac wrote...

Never said that all of the million would be human.

I thought that was implied, but like I said I also don't view it as likely either.
 

As for blackmail, if, say, the batarians found out, they would be all over it.

Not clear on what you're trying to say.

blackmail isn't useful if no one knows about it, amd once they knew, Batarians would probalby attack, either to destroy the gun or to get it away from Cerberus

Also, the council has the capability, two huge armies, commandos, STG, and spectres, they just haven't deemed Cerberus a 'threat' read: they're cowards.

No, they deem Cerberus a threat but can't find them. Besides that Cerberus hides out in the Terminus as well, where the Council is terrified to go, the fact is that Cerberus is well hidden: it takes a significant security leak (like the Grayson files in Retribution) for them to be able to draw up a target list.


The question has never been whether the Council could beat Cerberus in a fight: the relationship is about the same as the United States versus the Iraqi insurgency. The US never beat the Iraqi insurgency.

and they would know where the huge gun is

Threatening their homeworld, or any settled world, would turn most of the galaxy against them: no one sane will use a nuke today because no one else would back them up afterwards.

That presumes the person using the nuke feels the need for others to back them up outweighing the usage of the nuke. Like, say, North Korea's nuke test.

Besides which, the galaxy isn't united behind the Council, nor is Cerberus particularly effected by Council space being against it because Council space is already opposed to Cerberus. Cerberus isn't an open actor that relies on public legitimacy.

and neither is the galexy united behind Cerberus, but the council is the less agressive of the two, so an Enemy Mine isn't out of the question.

I can't see any reason they's make The Illusive Man a specrtre anyway, known terrorist and all.

Because TIM would be holding the MacGuffin they need for galactic survival.

and they would know where said Macguffin is, so they use their superior force to take it.

[Dean_the_Young]

They being... the Reapers?

It could be as simple as a race against time, in which Shepard and the Reapers arrive at the same time and fight each other, or it could be that the Reapers are already there, but aren't aware of the importance of the MacGuffin but realize that Shepard is going to a particular location.

[phimseto]

Is it possible that TIM managed to create some form of indoctrination which he used to get corporate honchos to bankroll stuff...only to have the indoctrination totally blow up in his face past a certain point? It would cover a lot of the questions about why Cerberus is suddenly working so directly against humanity's interests.

I will say this: if TIM turns out to be working the same kind of "but we will be spared" deal that Eaten was, shame on Bioware.