306 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

No to both.

[Tobitto]

daqs wrote...

but noted that even ethnic nationalism is hardly intrinsically a "racist" or "xenophobic" concept.

Ethnic nationalism, xenophobia and racism are intrinsically conected. Honestly, its quite appalling to see someone who cant see the conection... 

Modifié par Tobitto, 25 février 2012 - 07:07 .

[Mahrac]

they being shepard, the council, batarians, and other interested organic partys; by tracking materials for repairing a huge gun, and the reapers, via the fact that it was fired at them before

Modifié par Mahrac, 25 février 2012 - 07:12 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

I, for one, welcome our new Cerberus overlords.

[Dean_the_Young]

Tobitto wrote...

daqs wrote...

but noted that even ethnic nationalism is hardly intrinsically a "racist" or "xenophobic" concept.

Ethnic nationalism, xenophobia and racism are intrinsically conected. Honestly, its quite appalling to see someone who cant see the conection... 

...

[Tobitto]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

...

I know right, he dosent know what hes talking about 


oh wait...

[Dean_the_Young]

Mahrac wrote...

they being shepard, the council, batarians, and other interested organic partys; by tracking materials for repairing a huge gun,

Except the Council and other races already haven't been able to track Cerberus when they set up major installations, stealth ships, or entire fleets. Cerberus already has a logistics system that the galaxy can't trace and shut down. If they could, they would have already shut down Cerberus.

and the reapers via the fact that it was fired at them before

That actually has nothing to do with being able to find where Cerberus has hidden the project. Recognize it? Sure... but then, there's only one gun in the galaxy that creates Rift Valleys. It isn't hard to understand what caused it, especially if Cerberus tells them. Which was rather the point.

All the gun needs to be repaired and upgraded to do is fire and scoot before any counter-attack can be made, and Cerberus would have a virtually uncatchable super-weapon. FTL into darkspace outside a system, shoot towards where a planet will be in a few days, and then vamoose even before the light-speed lag reaches the planet.

[Dean_the_Young]

Tobitto wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

...

I know right, he dosent know what hes talking about 


oh wait...

At least one of you has extensive, even professional, knowledge on the subject matter, and I have no clue about you. You certainly haven't shown an equivalent understanding of the history or nuance of the subject, made any convincing argument, or even a counter-argument to daqs post.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 25 février 2012 - 07:28 .

[Mahrac]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Mahrac wrote...

they being shepard, the council, batarians, and other interested organic partys; by tracking materials for repairing a huge gun,

Except the Council and other races already haven't been able to track Cerberus when they set up major installations, stealth ships, or entire fleets. Cerberus already has a logistics system that the galaxy can't trace and shut down. If they could, they would have already shut down Cerberus.

and the reapers via the fact that it was fired at them before

That actually has nothing to do with being able to find where Cerberus has hidden the project. Recognize it? Sure... but then, there's only one gun in the galaxy that creates Rift Valleys. It isn't hard to understand what caused it, especially if Cerberus tells them. Which was rather the point.

All the gun needs to be repaired and upgraded to do is fire and scoot before any counter-attack can be made, and Cerberus would have a virtually uncatchable super-weapon. FTL into darkspace outside a system, shoot towards where a planet will be in a few days, and then vamoose even before the light-speed lag reaches the planet.

It took them more than a year to build the SR2, with parts form 'hundreds of suppliers, shipped to multiple instilations' they don't HAVE a year, they probably don't have a half a year, and i'm willing to bet the gun is larger that the normandy (it's implied to be bigger than the DA's main gun). That's a lot of parts, a lot of money, and a lot of shipping.

As for the Reapers, it shot at them, now it's some where between disabled and destroyed. You think that could maybe be their work?

[Dean_the_Young]

Mahrac wrote...

It took them more than a year to build the SR2, with parts form 'hundreds of suppliers, shipped to multiple instilations' they don't HAVE a year, they probably don't have a half a year, and i'm willing to bet the gun is larger that the normandy (it's implied to be bigger than the DA's main gun). That's a lot of parts, a lot of money, and a lot of shipping.

And yet entirely different purposes, and goals. The parts needed for a stealth frigate are known and so can be watched: the parts needed to repair the Klendagon canon are not, and so are far harder to watch for.

Moreover, not every Cerberus ship is built like the Normandy, which itself is a disproprotionately different vehical. Cerberus has years of stockpiles already existing. Cerberus certainly doesn't build every project one piece at a time via different routes.


Of course, there also is the matter of a timeline. Or the lack of one: while ME3 takes place six monthes after ME2, give or take, no point has ever been made for when the Klendagon canon was found. It could have been the week before TIM reported, or monthes before, or even before Shepard died. No timeline for when the weapon was found has ever been implied. Nor any implication of how long or hard it would be to repair it.

As for the Reapers, it shot at them, now it's some where between disabled and destroyed. You think that could maybe be their work?

If your point is 'the Reapers can destroy something they found', then yes. Of course, that point is not disputed.

If you are trying to argue that the Reapers can automatically re-find it if Cerberus moves it, then no. The species that built the Klendagon canon were using it tactically against a single ship, meaning it has to be in close enough range, but we're talking a strategic threat weapon here. Cerberus doesn't have to be in the same solar system to shoot a planet.

[PnXMarcin1PL]

Cerberus is going down and their fleet will be joined to the alliance in my game. Period.

[Mahrac]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Mahrac wrote...

It took them more than a year to build the SR2, with parts form 'hundreds of suppliers, shipped to multiple instilations' they don't HAVE a year, they probably don't have a half a year, and i'm willing to bet the gun is larger that the normandy (it's implied to be bigger than the DA's main gun). That's a lot of parts, a lot of money, and a lot of shipping.

And yet entirely different purposes, and goals. The parts needed for a stealth frigate are known and so can be watched: the parts needed to repair the Klendagon canon are not, and so are far harder to watch for.

Moreover, not every Cerberus ship is built like the Normandy, which itself is a disproprotionately different vehical. Cerberus has years of stockpiles already existing. Cerberus certainly doesn't build every project one piece at a time via different routes.


Of course, there also is the matter of a timeline. Or the lack of one: while ME3 takes place six monthes after ME2, give or take, no point has ever been made for when the Klendagon canon was found. It could have been the week before TIM reported, or monthes before, or even before Shepard died. No timeline for when the weapon was found has ever been implied. Nor any implication of how long or hard it would be to repair it.

As for the Reapers, it shot at them, now it's some where between disabled and destroyed. You think that could maybe be their work?

If your point is 'the Reapers can destroy something they found', then yes. Of course, that point is not disputed.

If you are trying to argue that the Reapers can automatically re-find it if Cerberus moves it, then no. The species that built the Klendagon canon were using it tactically against a single ship, meaning it has to be in close enough range, but we're talking a strategic threat weapon here. Cerberus doesn't have to be in the same solar system to shoot a planet.

The DA's main gun can't penetrate Reapper shields, this gun was strong enough to disable one with a single shot. Keeping in mind that a main gun is almost as long as the ship that carries it, that is a HUGE gun to rebuild, much less move.(probably the size OF a reaper) It could also require custom parts depending on the design, and xenolinguistic experts if humans can't read the instructions - it wasn't built by the protheans after all - and a metric ton of eezo if the core melted down. I'll admit is possible they could rebuild and relocate it without being noticed, but that would require the whole galexy to hold the idiot ball from the suicide mission to the attack on Earth.

[I-AM-KROGAN]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

I, for one, welcome our new Cerberus overlords.

YOU WILL BE THE FIRST TO DIE :devil::devil::devil:

[General User]

Tobitto wrote...

daqs wrote...
but noted that even ethnic nationalism is hardly intrinsically a "racist" or "xenophobic" concept.

Ethnic nationalism, xenophobia and racism are intrinsically conected. Honestly, its quite appalling to see someone who cant see the conection...

Please.  Enlighten us.

[Dean_the_Young]

Mahrac wrote...


The DA's main gun can't penetrate Reapper shields,

The Destiny Ascension has yet to get a chance to directly fire on a Reaper.

Keeping in mind that a main gun is almost as long as the ship that carries it, that is a HUGE gun to rebuild,

Cerberus doesn't have to rebuild the gun, or build a new one. They only have to fix it. It's defunct, not demolished.

Depending on how it's defunct, that may not be a huge task.

much less move.(probably the size OF a reaper)

With Mass Effect tech, that's not actually that hard to do. Moving bigger things like asteroids is routine practice for colonization efforts. Cerberus has plenty of space assets of size and scale.

It could also require custom parts depending on the design, and xenolinguistic experts if humans can't read the instructions - it wasn't built by the protheans after all - and a metric ton of eezo if the core melted down.

If other races don't know what parts are needed, then they can't be watching for them even if they could stop them... which Cerberus has already shown that they can't.

Cerberus already has its own linguistics experts and assets for dealing with alien technology, if it needs the linguistics at all rather than putting in its own software to run the hardware.

Cerberus already has the demonstrated ability and means to access and smuggle contraband and highly regulated items and resources.

I'll admit is possible they could rebuild and relocate it without being noticed, but that would require the whole galexy to hold the idiot ball from the suicide mission to the attack on Earth.

Not really: even ignorring the possiblity that they have more time than you'd like to admit, you're just wildly exagerating the ability of others despite consistent lore to the contrary.

Even ignorring the other Cerberus projects, Saren built the Virmire base without the Council knowing it, even as he worked for them. The Turians have a doomsday weapon buried on Tuchanka. The Salrians reapplied the Genophage without anyone noticing it was curing itself. The Shadow Broker had a custom-built ship. The Project in Arrival got completed under the nose of a paranoid police state by hiding in an asteroid belt and shipping parts from Omega.

Not only can Cerberus get parts from any part of the galaxy, no one knows where the Klendagon canon is... even before the prospect of Cerberus moving it. And once Cerberus is capable of moving it to unpopulated darkspace, there's no means to track it.

You can't trace something if you don't know what it is, where it's coming from, what route it's taking, or where it's going.  And Cerberus has already demonstrated an ability to build significant assets when the parts ARE known.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 25 février 2012 - 08:12 .

[DarthSliver]

Well maybe if the council didnt ignore possible threats to the galaxy an organization like Cerberus wouldnt havent gotten so big like it has, from their history they seem to wait to do something about a threat until its at their front door.

[Mahrac]

I still think that that particulat project is too big to be done.
1. maybe, Personally I think it would have gotten a shot off at some point during the Battle of the Citadel

2/3. If they move it, it will have to be rebuilt. Even with mass effect fields, something big enough to hit a reaper and take a chunk out of a planet is too big for one ship. And 'defunt'is a pretty broad term, from small damage to Mass Effect Core meltdown to Reapers partially leveled it. plus at 37 millionish years of corrosion

4. Custom parts are custom parts, and depending on the extent damage, it could be more than enough to put financial strain on Cerberus, an expose shipping lines.

5a. Virmire could have been under construction since the First Contact War, or at least since Revelation
b. citation please, I can't find it.
c. because they caught it and reworked it before it was noticeable, at least to anyone not specifically looking for it
d. Liara estimates it took decades to build
e. they needed to ship far fewer parts, which could be disguised as thruster replacement parts, and they were still found out

Modifié par Mahrac, 25 février 2012 - 08:27 .

[MisterJB]

"Other species may talk with us, trade with us, even live with us, but when a crisis comes, we are on our own.”

Can't disagree with this. Guess that makes me a Cerberus supporter. When do I get the badass armor?

Not sure why the Alliance would be worried. Cerberus expansion is good. Even if you don't support them, having another powerful pro-human group in the Galaxy is always a good thing.

[Dean_the_Young]

Mahrac wrote...

I still think that that particulat project is too big to be done.
1. maybe, Personally I think it would have gotten a shot off at some point during the Battle of the Citadel

The Destiny Ascension wasn't in the right position at the time. It never engaged Sovereign, who blitzed through a section of the Turian fleet.

2/3. If they move it, it will have to be rebuilt. Even with mass effect fields, something big enough to hit a reaper and take a chunk out of a planet is too big for one ship.

There's nothing to support this at all. We have no basis for comparison.

And 'defunt'is a pretty broad term, from small damage to Mass Effect Core meltdown to Reapers partially leveled it. plus at 37 millionish years of corrosion

Which is why it can't be assumed to be completely destroyed in a counter-argument against it re-appearing as a hypothetical ME3 development.

4. Custom parts are custom parts, and depending on the extent damage, it could be more than enough to put financial strain on Cerberus, an expose shipping lines.

Why would Cerberus use exposed shipping lines for the custom parts? Both ends of the process would be hidden, and the mid-route is virtually untrackable.

Literally all they would have to do is put it on a private cargo shuttle, claim it's something else, and stop early in a FTL jump and re-track. There is no mass-screening of containers in the ME universe.

Heck, half the groups we found in ME2 made money via smuggling things through the Council's security. All three merc groups, the Aria cartel, the Shadow Broker, and Cerberus. This is established lore.

5a. Virmire could have been under construction since the First Contact War, or at least since Revelation

Which would mean that Saren could hide a pre-existing structure from scrutiny while working with the Council, which is even harder.

b. citation please, I can't find it.

ME3 spoilers, referenced in news media.

c. because they caught it and reworked it before it was noticeable, at least to anyone not specifically looking for it

Which would apply here.

d. Liara estimates it took decades to build

Which could well apply here.

e. they needed to ship far fewer parts, which could be disguised as thruster replacement parts, and they were still found out

It wasn't the number but the type of parts that got them detected, and they were only found out after it was too late.

The Cerberus parts, if custom made, wouldn't be bought off the market, and wouldn't be shipped into a heavily-watched system. They'd be made in secret by Cerberus, so no purchase, and their location of origin and destination wouldn't be known.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 25 février 2012 - 08:42 .

[Farbautisonn]

Tobitto wrote...

Ethnic nationalism, xenophobia and racism are intrinsically conected. Honestly, its quite appalling to see someone who cant see the conection... 

-Is nationalism allways = "Ethnic nationalism"? 

Yes or no?

[Mahrac]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Mahrac wrote...

I still think that that particulat project is too big to be done.
1. maybe, Personally I think it would have gotten a shot off at some point during the Battle of the Citadel

The Destiny Ascension wasn't in the right position at the time. It never engaged Sovereign, who blitzed through a section of the Turian fleet.

2/3. If they move it, it will have to be rebuilt. Even with mass effect fields, something big enough to hit a reaper and take a chunk out of a planet is too big for one ship.

There's nothing to support this at all. We have no basis for comparison.

a ship traveling at FTL speeds mostly leveled a city, but did not destroy it (Vallum incident) that means a round from this gun would have to have more force than said crash, after punching through a Reaper. to shot a round that size that fast is going to take a big gun.
also of note: a dreadnought cannot use it's own core to take off from a planet surface. lifing all of or part of this gun will be harder

And 'defunt'is a pretty broad term, from small damage to Mass Effect Core meltdown to Reapers partially leveled it. plus at 37 millionish years of corrosion

Which is why it can't be assumed to be completely destroyed in a counter-argument against it.

and a good arguement to needing a lot of parts to fix, if it's fixable

4. Custom parts are custom parts, and depending on the extent damage, it could be more than enough to put financial strain on Cerberus, an expose shipping lines.

Why would Cerberus use exposed shipping lines for the custom parts?

Literally all they would have to do is put it on a private cargo shuttle, claim it's something else, and stop early in a FTL jump and re-track. There is no mass-screening of containers in the ME universe.

the custom parts aren't the problem, the ordering of them is just small red flag. the problem is the number of parts being shipped

5a. Virmire could have been under construction since the First Contact War, or at least since Revelation

Which would mean that Saren could hide a pre-existing structure from scrutiny while working with the Council, which is even harder.

or he spent a decade building it from the ground up with his - considerable - assets

b. citation please, I can't find it.

ME3 spoilers, referenced in news media.

i wouldn't know then

c. because they caught it and reworked it before it was noticeable, at least to anyone not specifically looking for it

Which would apply here.

the magnitude of the project - ships, materials, credits, ect. - would be much easier to notice than something happening in an STG base and a twenty man team

d. Liara estimates it took decades to build

Which could well apply here.

they have months for this project, not years

e. they needed to ship far fewer parts, which could be disguised as thruster replacement parts, and they were still found out

It wasn't the number but the type of parts that got them detected, and they were only found out after it was too late.

The Cerberus parts, if custom made, wouldn't be bought off the market, and wouldn't be shipped into a heavily-watched system. They'd be made in secret by Cerberus, so no purchase, and their location of origin and destination wouldn't be known.

so the custom parts might go unnoticed, but this is a larger number of more noticeable parts being shipped to somewhere they have no reason to go, rather than a bad reason to go

some time i WILL figure out how to format the quote boxes

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Mahrac wrote...

a ship traveling at FTL speeds mostly leveled a city, but did not destroy it (Vallum incident) that means a round from this gun would have to have more force than said crash, after punching through a Reaper. to shot a round that size that fast is going to take a big gun.[/quote]Except, of course, that e-zero dictates everything. A dreadnaught launches a round with the force of a tactical nuke, but each round is smaller than Shepard.

'Big' is a meaningless word without context of size. Is the gun smaller than the DA, but with more e-zero? Is it a space-station rather than a ship? 


Nothing can be said to be too big to move until we get how big it actually is. For all we know, the ship could still have a mostly-functional propulsion system of its own. Since there's nothing saying it doesn't, or that one couldn't be brought in, it's a valid basis for bringing it to bear in ME3.


[quote]
also of note: a dreadnought cannot use it's own core to take off from a planet surface. lifing all of or part of this gun will be harder[/quote]Fortunately, it's not on a planet, but in space.

[quote]

and a good arguement to needing a lot of parts to fix, if it's fixable[/quote]Except that is covered by the established lore: Cerberus is a cabal with significant resources even when diminished, but more importantly has a tier-1 smuggling system. Cerberus has the means to make custom components (front companies), the means to smuggle them (their smuggling operations), and the basis for being able to implement them (their ability to set up large projects unnoticed).




[quote]
the custom parts aren't the problem, the ordering of them is just small red flag. the problem is the number of parts being shipped[/quote]Except Cerberus doesn't have to order them. Cerberus can make them via their front companies, with no public orders.

[quote]
or he spent a decade building it from the ground up with his - considerable - assets[/quote]Which plays into my argument that smuggling is easy.


[quote]
the magnitude of the project - ships, materials, credits, ect. - would be much easier to notice than something happening in an STG base and a twenty man team[/quote]Except the ships, materials, and credits need never leave the Cerberus network.

Resource tracking relies on transactions between groups when you know the groups involved. Cerberus doesn't need to buy the parts off the Omega market: they have the basis for making them on their own. Cerberus doesn't need ships to go through suspicious routes: they can FTL as needed.


[quote]
they have months for this project, not years[/quote]No timeline, remember? We have no idea when the Klendagon Canon was found. Add that to we don't have a basis for judging how much time is actually needed, since we don't have to create this project from scratch.

Besides which, Mass Effect has always played fast and loose with logistics over time. Just read the timeline.


[quote]
so the custom parts might go unnoticed, but this is a larger number of more noticeable parts being shipped to somewhere they have no reason to go, rather than a bad reason to go[/quote]Why would Cerberus admit where they're shipping the parts to? Or what parts they are actually shipping?

Smuggling is easy when there's too much volume to inspect. Cerberus could have a super-suspicious railgun part that they claim is fertilizer for a Terminus colony. No one would be able to know if they didn't inspect, which is impossible.


[/quote]

some time i WILL figure out how to format the quote boxes[/quote]

[.q.u.o.t.e]

[/.q.u.o.t.e]

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 25 février 2012 - 09:08 .

[Wulfram]

MisterJB wrote...

"Other species may talk with us, trade with us, even live with us, but when a crisis comes, we are on our own.”

Can't disagree with this. Guess that makes me a Cerberus supporter. When do I get the badass armor?

Not sure why the Alliance would be worried. Cerberus expansion is good. Even if you don't support them, having another powerful pro-human group in the Galaxy is always a good thing.

Cerberus has probably killed more humans than the turians have.  They're no ally of anyone except themselves.

[Dean_the_Young]

On the other hand, Cerberus has also saved far more Humans than the Turians have, and certainly magnitudes more than they saved (unless you intend to argue that Cerberus has killed hundreds of thousands of Humans).

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 25 février 2012 - 09:14 .