That sounds like quite the pickle.
Cerberus expansion deemed "significant threat" - Alliance News Network
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Jessica Merizan
, févr. 25 2012 03:37
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#177
Posté 25 février 2012 - 09:33
Wulfram
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Dean_the_Young wrote...
On the other hand, Cerberus has also saved far more Humans than the Turians have, and certainly magnitudes more than they saved (unless you intend to argue that Cerberus has killed hundreds of thousands of Humans).
Turians helped save humanity during the Battle of the Citadel.
#178
Posté 25 février 2012 - 09:35
Mahrac
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[quote][quote]Mahrac wrote...
a ship traveling at FTL speeds mostly leveled a city, but did not destroy it (Vallum incident) that means a round from this gun would have to have more force than said crash, after punching through a Reaper. to shot a round that size that fast is going to take a big gun.[/quote]Except, of course, that e-zero dictates everything. A dreadnaught launches a round with the force of a tactical nuke, but each round is smaller than Shepard.
'Big' is a meaningless word without context of size. Is the gun smaller than the DA, but with more e-zero? Is it a space-station rather than a ship?
Nothing can be said to be too big to move until we get how big it actually is. For all we know, the ship could still have a mostly-functional propulsion system of its own. Since there's nothing saying it doesn't, or that one couldn't be brought in, it's a valid basis for bringing it to bear in ME3.[/quote]
eezo is also more effective when a barrel is longer (more time to accelerate the slug) so I'd imagine that the cannon is bigger than the DA
[quote]
also of note: a dreadnought cannot use it's own core to take off from a planet surface. lifing all of or part of this gun will be harder
[quote]Fortunately, it's not on a planet, but in space.[/quote][/quote]
the gun is in space? how is that stableized?
[quote]
and a good arguement to needing a lot of parts to fix, if it's fixable
[quote]Except that is covered by the established lore: Cerberus is a cabal with significant resources even when diminished, but more importantly has a tier-1 smuggling system. Cerberus has the means to make custom components (front companies), the means to smuggle them (their smuggling operations), and the basis for being able to implement them (their ability to set up large projects unnoticed).
[/quote][/quote]
I'll admit Cerberus has an impressive network, I just don't think it's large enough to tackle this project in the time provided - i'm giving them from time of disovery of the direlect to Shepard's Trial, i'd guess eight months
[quote]
the custom parts aren't the problem, the ordering of them is just small red flag. the problem is the number of parts being shipped
[quote]Except Cerberus doesn't have to order them. Cerberus can make them via their front companies, with no public orders.[/quote][/quote]
which reduces their public manufacturing abilities, cut profits, and incures expenses for the raw materials needed to make the parts
[quote]
or he spent a decade building it from the ground up with his - considerable - assets
[quote]Which plays into my argument that smuggling is easy.[/quote]
[/quote]
when it's done over the course of a decade, rather in less than a year, in addition to any other smuggling they have to do
[quote]
the magnitude of the project - ships, materials, credits, ect. - would be much easier to notice than something happening in an STG base and a twenty man team[/quote][quote]Except the ships, materials, and credits need never leave the Cerberus network.
Resource tracking relies on transactions between groups when you know the groups involved. Cerberus doesn't need to buy the parts off the Omega market: they have the basis for making them on their own. Cerberus doesn't need ships to go through suspicious routes: they can FTL as needed.[/quote]
there's still income reported(shipping a ton of parts for free is too suspicious), expenses incured(paying employees, buying raw material), ships moving(relays are monitered), and some still-opperating shell companies are known from Retribution. The paper trail is still there, it's just buried a layer deeper.
[quote]
they have months for this project, not years[/quote][quote]No timeline, remember? We have no idea when the Klendagon Canon was found. Add that to we don't have a basis for judging how much time is actually needed, since we don't have to create this project from scratch.
Besides which, Mass Effect has always played fast and loose with logistics over time. Just read the timeline.[/quote]
fast and loose yes, but a good presumption is it was found a year befor the Invasion, which gives time for tracking the shot, the suicide mission, and Arrival, an their rough place in the timelime. And if you have to take a cannon as big as this one probably is off a planet, it's going to be rebuilt form almost scratch
[quote]
so the custom parts might go unnoticed, but this is a larger number of more noticeable parts being shipped to somewhere they have no reason to go, rather than a bad reason to go[/quote][quote]Why would Cerberus admit where they're shipping the parts to? Or what parts they are actually shipping?
Smuggling is easy when there's too much volume to inspect. Cerberus could have a super-suspicious railgun part that they claim is fertilizer for a Terminus colony. No one would be able to know if they didn't inspect, which is impossible.[/quote]
but the volume also means there are more ships that could be help up for problms in their manifests, and if ships from a certain group of companies are regularly visiting an ininhabited area, and claim to be headed somewhere else, it will be noticed. And that's still provided that the cannon doesn't need to be resupplied with eezo, which would probably make a gaping chasm in the market
At this point, I'm inclined to say agree to disagree, we can't make a meaningful arguement without knowing how big the cannon is, it's condition, and exactly how much Cerberus can afford.
a ship traveling at FTL speeds mostly leveled a city, but did not destroy it (Vallum incident) that means a round from this gun would have to have more force than said crash, after punching through a Reaper. to shot a round that size that fast is going to take a big gun.[/quote]Except, of course, that e-zero dictates everything. A dreadnaught launches a round with the force of a tactical nuke, but each round is smaller than Shepard.
'Big' is a meaningless word without context of size. Is the gun smaller than the DA, but with more e-zero? Is it a space-station rather than a ship?
Nothing can be said to be too big to move until we get how big it actually is. For all we know, the ship could still have a mostly-functional propulsion system of its own. Since there's nothing saying it doesn't, or that one couldn't be brought in, it's a valid basis for bringing it to bear in ME3.[/quote]
eezo is also more effective when a barrel is longer (more time to accelerate the slug) so I'd imagine that the cannon is bigger than the DA
[quote]
also of note: a dreadnought cannot use it's own core to take off from a planet surface. lifing all of or part of this gun will be harder
[quote]Fortunately, it's not on a planet, but in space.[/quote][/quote]
the gun is in space? how is that stableized?
[quote]
and a good arguement to needing a lot of parts to fix, if it's fixable
[quote]Except that is covered by the established lore: Cerberus is a cabal with significant resources even when diminished, but more importantly has a tier-1 smuggling system. Cerberus has the means to make custom components (front companies), the means to smuggle them (their smuggling operations), and the basis for being able to implement them (their ability to set up large projects unnoticed).
[/quote][/quote]
I'll admit Cerberus has an impressive network, I just don't think it's large enough to tackle this project in the time provided - i'm giving them from time of disovery of the direlect to Shepard's Trial, i'd guess eight months
[quote]
the custom parts aren't the problem, the ordering of them is just small red flag. the problem is the number of parts being shipped
[quote]Except Cerberus doesn't have to order them. Cerberus can make them via their front companies, with no public orders.[/quote][/quote]
which reduces their public manufacturing abilities, cut profits, and incures expenses for the raw materials needed to make the parts
[quote]
or he spent a decade building it from the ground up with his - considerable - assets
[quote]Which plays into my argument that smuggling is easy.[/quote]
[/quote]
when it's done over the course of a decade, rather in less than a year, in addition to any other smuggling they have to do
[quote]
the magnitude of the project - ships, materials, credits, ect. - would be much easier to notice than something happening in an STG base and a twenty man team[/quote][quote]Except the ships, materials, and credits need never leave the Cerberus network.
Resource tracking relies on transactions between groups when you know the groups involved. Cerberus doesn't need to buy the parts off the Omega market: they have the basis for making them on their own. Cerberus doesn't need ships to go through suspicious routes: they can FTL as needed.[/quote]
there's still income reported(shipping a ton of parts for free is too suspicious), expenses incured(paying employees, buying raw material), ships moving(relays are monitered), and some still-opperating shell companies are known from Retribution. The paper trail is still there, it's just buried a layer deeper.
[quote]
they have months for this project, not years[/quote][quote]No timeline, remember? We have no idea when the Klendagon Canon was found. Add that to we don't have a basis for judging how much time is actually needed, since we don't have to create this project from scratch.
Besides which, Mass Effect has always played fast and loose with logistics over time. Just read the timeline.[/quote]
fast and loose yes, but a good presumption is it was found a year befor the Invasion, which gives time for tracking the shot, the suicide mission, and Arrival, an their rough place in the timelime. And if you have to take a cannon as big as this one probably is off a planet, it's going to be rebuilt form almost scratch
[quote]
so the custom parts might go unnoticed, but this is a larger number of more noticeable parts being shipped to somewhere they have no reason to go, rather than a bad reason to go[/quote][quote]Why would Cerberus admit where they're shipping the parts to? Or what parts they are actually shipping?
Smuggling is easy when there's too much volume to inspect. Cerberus could have a super-suspicious railgun part that they claim is fertilizer for a Terminus colony. No one would be able to know if they didn't inspect, which is impossible.[/quote]
but the volume also means there are more ships that could be help up for problms in their manifests, and if ships from a certain group of companies are regularly visiting an ininhabited area, and claim to be headed somewhere else, it will be noticed. And that's still provided that the cannon doesn't need to be resupplied with eezo, which would probably make a gaping chasm in the market
At this point, I'm inclined to say agree to disagree, we can't make a meaningful arguement without knowing how big the cannon is, it's condition, and exactly how much Cerberus can afford.
Modifié par Mahrac, 25 février 2012 - 09:42 .
#179
Posté 25 février 2012 - 09:36
Mahrac
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double post
Modifié par Mahrac, 25 février 2012 - 09:45 .
#180
Posté 25 février 2012 - 09:36
Mahrac
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triple post
Modifié par Mahrac, 25 février 2012 - 09:45 .
#181
Posté 25 février 2012 - 09:39
Tobitto
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Farbautisonn wrote...
Tobitto wrote...
Ethnic nationalism, xenophobia and racism are intrinsically conected. Honestly, its quite appalling to see someone who cant see the conection...
-Is nationalism allways = "Ethnic nationalism"?
Yes or no?
Yes
#184
Posté 25 février 2012 - 10:19
Dean_the_Young
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Unless you're in China, Africa, or the Western Hemisphere.
#185
Posté 25 février 2012 - 10:20
sairyseast
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Ok there are a number of things I'm really confused with... Ignoring for the fact that irregardless of choices in ME2 Cerberus is an enemy.....
The central point for my confusion is the illusion man. This is an intelligent thoughtful and objective (in terms of the bigger picture) person who is bent on the survival of humanity ( if nothing else). Every conversation he has with Shepard is even handed, there are good well balanced reasons for the missions he sends Shepard on and the answers he gives are good ones. Morally ambiguous Cerberus cells are regularly discounted as independent and the illusion man always makes reparations when it comes to light...
I don't understand how regardless of choice Cerberus is now mobilising its army against Shepard and humanity when the reapers are ON EARTH. This flies in the face of everything TIM ( the illusion man ) has said. And before I entertain responses of 'well he lied'... This is an intelligent man who knew he couldn't pull the wool over Shepard, and needed to maintain a certain high level of transparency with the missions in ME2
There was a great deal of effort in ME2, in particular from the Normandy crew, and response to jacks mission to illustrate and distinguish Cerberus as a group interested in promoting human interests, from fundamentalist human supremacy groups... In light of the previous point in particular when considering the council and talks TIM has with Shepard, many of its shortfalls are down to a lack of trust, yet ME2 makes pains to illuminate the good in its view and members...In this point I'm just confused at the present time in why Cerberus would take such action to attack Shepard and his team...I assume a lot will be answered upon the release, but what really sticks with me...
Is that the illusion man seems quite separate from Cerberus.... It I s already stated that Cerberus operates in cells- but that he is adamant in keeping himself separate from morally ambiguous decisions and open to other viewpoints (as heard and seen in conversations and emails to Shepard)
Just want to try and clear things in my head.... Any help??
The central point for my confusion is the illusion man. This is an intelligent thoughtful and objective (in terms of the bigger picture) person who is bent on the survival of humanity ( if nothing else). Every conversation he has with Shepard is even handed, there are good well balanced reasons for the missions he sends Shepard on and the answers he gives are good ones. Morally ambiguous Cerberus cells are regularly discounted as independent and the illusion man always makes reparations when it comes to light...
I don't understand how regardless of choice Cerberus is now mobilising its army against Shepard and humanity when the reapers are ON EARTH. This flies in the face of everything TIM ( the illusion man ) has said. And before I entertain responses of 'well he lied'... This is an intelligent man who knew he couldn't pull the wool over Shepard, and needed to maintain a certain high level of transparency with the missions in ME2
There was a great deal of effort in ME2, in particular from the Normandy crew, and response to jacks mission to illustrate and distinguish Cerberus as a group interested in promoting human interests, from fundamentalist human supremacy groups... In light of the previous point in particular when considering the council and talks TIM has with Shepard, many of its shortfalls are down to a lack of trust, yet ME2 makes pains to illuminate the good in its view and members...In this point I'm just confused at the present time in why Cerberus would take such action to attack Shepard and his team...I assume a lot will be answered upon the release, but what really sticks with me...
Is that the illusion man seems quite separate from Cerberus.... It I s already stated that Cerberus operates in cells- but that he is adamant in keeping himself separate from morally ambiguous decisions and open to other viewpoints (as heard and seen in conversations and emails to Shepard)
Just want to try and clear things in my head.... Any help??
#186
Posté 25 février 2012 - 10:27
Dave of Canada
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sairyseast wrote...
Just want to try and clear things in my head.... Any help??
Indoctrination.
#187
Posté 25 février 2012 - 10:30
Farbautisonn
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Tobitto wrote...
Farbautisonn wrote...
Tobitto wrote...
Ethnic nationalism, xenophobia and racism are intrinsically conected. Honestly, its quite appalling to see someone who cant see the conection...
-Is nationalism allways = "Ethnic nationalism"?
Yes or no?
Yes
-I love the black and white crowd.
Explain Russian and soviet nationalism?
#188
Posté 25 février 2012 - 11:19
Hunter of Legends
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Farbautisonn wrote...
Tobitto wrote...
Farbautisonn wrote...
Tobitto wrote...
Ethnic nationalism, xenophobia and racism are intrinsically conected. Honestly, its quite appalling to see someone who cant see the conection...
-Is nationalism allways = "Ethnic nationalism"?
Yes or no?
Yes
-I love the black and white crowd.
Explain Russian and soviet nationalism?
Or European Union
Or Humanist
Or American Pride
#189
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 25 février 2012 - 11:23
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
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Another problem with this expansion of Cerberus is that it runs directly counter to TIM's management style. He likes to micromanage and personally direct things. If Cerberus gets any bigger than it already was in ME2 then TIM can't really do this anymore.
#190
Posté 25 février 2012 - 11:30
Nathan Redgrave
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Saphra Deden wrote...
Another problem with this expansion of Cerberus is that it runs directly counter to TIM's management style. He likes to micromanage and personally direct things. If Cerberus gets any bigger than it already was in ME2 then TIM can't really do this anymore.
This is true, although it applies less to combat ops than it does to research and development, where micromanagement makes more of a difference. I get the sense that TIM's motive for recruiting more heavily than usual lies in his plans for the Reaper invasion, which one way or another would require a sizable increase in manpower.
#191
Posté 25 février 2012 - 11:32
Hunter of Legends
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Saphra Deden wrote...
Another problem with this expansion of Cerberus is that it runs directly counter to TIM's management style. He likes to micromanage and personally direct things. If Cerberus gets any bigger than it already was in ME2 then TIM can't really do this anymore.
Unless they are all involved in the same things/one big group.
#192
Posté 25 février 2012 - 11:38
Wulfram
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Saphra Deden wrote...
Another problem with this expansion of Cerberus is that it runs directly counter to TIM's management style. He likes to micromanage and personally direct things. If Cerberus gets any bigger than it already was in ME2 then TIM can't really do this anymore.
Well, he couldn't do this earlier going by Teltin.
#193
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 25 février 2012 - 11:43
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
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Wulfram wrote...
Well, he couldn't do this earlier going by Teltin.
Twenty years ago and I have a hunch that Teltin was the motivation for TIM to keep Cerberus small and manageable.
#194
Posté 25 février 2012 - 11:55
General User
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I always (well... not always, but for a while) thought the same thing. TIM saw how wrong things could go when he didn't maintain close, personal supervision of his people and since then he's been, as Joker put it, "kinda control freaky."Saphra Deden wrote...
Wulfram wrote...
Well, he couldn't do this earlier going by Teltin.
Twenty years ago and I have a hunch that Teltin was the motivation for TIM to keep Cerberus small and manageable.
Modifié par General User, 25 février 2012 - 11:56 .
#195
Posté 26 février 2012 - 12:20
andy6915
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SKiLLYWiLLY2 wrote...
It's obvious, the cerberus troops are clones.
That. I suspect TIM and Cerberus have done the human equivalent of Jedore and Okeer's work, minus the human Grunt super soldier equivalent. That is to say, a mass cloning program where clones are taught and trained how to kill while they're still forming in the tanks, just like Okeer's Krogan, and also like Okeer's Krogan, they are likely quite insane and unstable (which fits what we've seen of the Cerberus soldiers in ME3).
A mass cloning program making fully grown and trained soldiers could very easily give you an army of thousands in just a few months. And let's face it, if a small time Blue Suns person and a Krogan scientist could do it, Cerberus definitely can. The question is, who's genetic material was used? My guess... Shepard's.
#197
Posté 26 février 2012 - 12:31
andy6915
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Dean_the_Young wrote...
It ain't cloning.
You know this how? Are you a script reader?
#198
Posté 26 février 2012 - 12:33
ODST 5723
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Dean_the_Young wrote...
If by 'fantasyland' you mean 'how communication works', sure. So do you, and so does everyone else who has neither the ability or the desire to share absolutely all contextual information about everything.
You're not exactly posting your personal identity information yourself, or how your day went, or why you're posting with a Collector avatar rather than a personal photo, but it would be absurd to say that you're lying by omission.
Because clearly those things are material to the conversation. It's not even comparable.
A lie of omission is leaving out a material fact in order to further or foster a misconception. The reality is that TIM is the driving force behind why the VS is on Horizon, and in turn, why the Collectors are on Horizon. Those are material facts regarding the situation. TIM is asked why the VS is there. He dances around this by leaving out his role. The misconception he's fostering is that these were coincidental and not prearranged. They were.
Data like the planet population, colony layout, defenses, progress of the GARDIAN arrays... those are things that can be transmitted and reviewed in preparing an assault plan. Those weren't mentioned but they weren't lies of omission.
#199
Posté 26 février 2012 - 12:33
Hunter of Legends
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andy69156915 wrote...
Dean_the_Young wrote...
It ain't cloning.
You know this how? Are you a script reader?
Yes.
#200
Posté 26 février 2012 - 12:44
andy6915
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Well there goes THAT idea. Let me guess (don't spoil me the details)... Bioware made a much less logical and more stupid way for Cerberus to get their army?
