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[Dean_the_Young]

andy69156915 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

It ain't cloning.

You know this how? Are you a script reader?

I'm also a news article reader, and the explanation was in a gaming magazine.

[corporal doody]

Cerberus was and STILL IS a part of the Alliance!! a black ops group that went rogue is a great cover!! The Alliance's public condemnation of Cerberus allows them plausible deniability. They are still bankrolling Cerberus covertly. Cerberus does the things the Alliance cant do because politics, morals, and ethics dictates it so. Cerberus are not handcuffed. They say there are Cerberus sympathizers in the Alliance? I say NO....the Alliance and Cerberus are one in the same!

Modifié par corporal doody, 26 février 2012 - 12:52 .

[corporal doody]

Saphra Deden wrote...

corporal doody wrote...

Cerberus was and STILL IS a part of the Alliance!! a black ops group that went rogue is a great cover!!

My suspicion is that this has been retconned away.

I hope not....it would be very sad indeed!! it would be like ripping a piece of heart from the story.

and i have yet to see anything that takes away the connection between early Cerberus and the Alliance.

Modifié par corporal doody, 26 février 2012 - 01:02 .

[Dean_the_Young]

ODST 5723 wrote...

Because clearly those things are material to the conversation.  It's not even comparable.

Who you are is as material to the conversation as I decide it is, just like how material why the VS is there is to explaining why the Collectors happen to be targetting Horizon.

Both are irrelevant. The reason behind the VS's appearance on Horizon doesn't change why the Collectors are targetting Horizon. There is no misconception about why the Collectors are there, regardless of whether the VS's motive is given or not.

A lie of omission is leaving out a material fact in order to further or foster a misconception.  The reality is that TIM is the driving force behind why the VS is on Horizon, and in turn, why the Collectors are on Horizon. 

And TIM never misleads why the Collectors are there.

If you start counting degrees of separation of history, there is no logical end. You'd have to go to the beginning of the known history, beginning with 'and the last Protheans created a Conduit', which is redundant and pointless.

Shepard doesn't need to know why Ash or Kaiden are on Horizon. It isn't relevant to the mission, and changes nothing about the the who, what, when, where, or why.

Those are material facts regarding the situation.  TIM is asked why the VS is there. He dances around this by leaving out his role.  The misconception he's fostering is that these were coincidental and not prearranged.  They were.

That's the exact opposite of what he implies, and not what he was asked. Shepard never asks why the VS is there.

Shepard says the VS's presence there can't be a coincidence, and TIM agrees and offers the most likely reason. There is no misconception he's fostering, because that is the Collector's reason for targetting the colony. Because the VS is there.

In no way you spin it, is that a lie. Nor does the reason why the VS is there change it one way or the other.

Data like the planet population, colony layout, defenses, progress of the GARDIAN arrays... those are things that can be transmitted and reviewed in preparing an assault plan.  Those weren't mentioned but they weren't lies of omission.

And neither was not briefing Shepard about the tip-off setting up the trap. They have the same relevance (the context), and the same absence, the Guardian especially since it's presence was also part of TIM's machination.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 26 février 2012 - 01:04 .

[Farbautisonn]

andy69156915 wrote...

Well there goes THAT idea. Let me guess (don't spoil me the details)... Bioware made a much less logical and more stupid way for Cerberus to get their army?

They struck a deal with Asmodius. Hey... at least its still abit roleplay-ish...

[Dean_the_Young]

andy69156915 wrote...

Well there goes THAT idea. Let me guess (don't spoil me the details)... Bioware made a much less logical and more stupid way for Cerberus to get their army?

Actually, I like it. I just think it should have been a Base Keepers Only consequence.

Of course, that would have meant someone else being the 40% enemy. Maybe that Batarian Rebellion...

[Dean_the_Young]

And who didn't you totally steal it from, Saphra?

[Femlob]

Question, Saphra. Let's assume that Cerberus would've been the way you envisioned it. Who would you have set up to be Shepard's "let's blow through this sh*t" cannon-fodder enemies?

[Femlob]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Femlob wrote...

Question, Saphra. Let's assume that Cerberus would've been the way you envisioned it. Who would you have set up to be Shepard's "let's blow through this sh*t" cannon-fodder enemies?

Likely the batarians, but I'm not even sure we needed them for that. In any case they'd have made sense as a Reaper ally. They are weak and desperate and their leaders just might be fanatical enough to sign a pact with the Reapers to eliminate their rivals and expand in their place.

Another possibility is actually the Systems Alliance/Earth, or a parts of it. With Earth occupied and the fleets in ruins the leaders would have to capitulate, to save their own lives and save their constituents. Of-course some may also be indoctrinated.

If the home world announced that it had signed a peace treaty with the Reapers and then ordered their remaining forces in the galaxy to honor that treaty, don't you think at least some of them would?

Ultimately though, why can't the Reapers and their husk armies, geth, and indoctrinated slaves be our enemies? Isn't that enough? It's high time we had a Reaper take front and center stage as the bad guy for one of these games. Harbringer was kind of a taste of that, but shockingly, he didn't have enough exposure. We need a Reaper who will lecture us from time to time about the futility of our struggle.

I won't argue that. My point was that fighting just Reaper after Reaper would get stale after a while.

[ODST 5723]

Keep on living in that fantasyland, Dean.

[Femlob]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Femlob wrote...

I won't argue that. My point was that fighting just Reaper after Reaper would get stale after a while.

I think there is plenty of variability as it is.

Perhaps.

[Dean_the_Young]

An Alliance quisling government is an interesting exercise in hypotheticals, but I think the Batarians would have been big bread winners... especially if they were the ones trying to dominate the Reapers in the end. As a slaving totalitarian empire, themes of control and dominance would have run well with them.

Plus, I can see a quasi-quisling government with the Batarians far more easily than I can with the Alliance. The Alliance is culturally and politically 'off' the Earth anyway, while the Batarians have the police state to justify enforcing obedience.

[Dean_the_Young]

ODST 5723 wrote...

Keep on living in that fantasyland, Dean.

Reality is nice enough when you pay attention to what people say, not what you presume they say.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 26 février 2012 - 01:57 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Perhaps you're right, but I think a human quisling would have been neat. Perhaps in a smaller role.

An actual quisling doesn't strike me as much of a Reaper-thing to do, unles they actually need allies. In which case, outright alliance with a cats-paw.


Personally, if that were the case, I think I would have included that as a plot point even in ME2. The Collectors could have been less about building a Reaper for its own sake, and more about instigating a war between the Council and Terminus via instigating a Human intervention.

Throw in the Omega Plague as a bio-weapon to devastate the entire galaxy, the Heretic Virus to corner the Geth in the Reaper's pocket, and perhaps some other highly-disrupting super-weapon, like the VI virus, or a Babel Virus to destroy communication translators, and ME2 could have been a case of saving the galaxy from the Reapers' brilliant machinations to divide the galaxy before their arrival.

On top of actual Collector relevance and tying the Reapers to the story, Shepard would have legitimately saved the galaxy as well by destroying the Collectors before the Alliance could be provoked into moving into the Terminus. The Collector Base would have had more obvious utility in studying the Reaper's prepared bio/cyber weapons that they intended to use to have the galaxy tear itself apart with... but also giving Cerberus access to the unrevealed items.


The game ends with a theme of unifying the galaxy, Citadel and Terminus groups (as represented by Shepard's crew) against the Reapers...

...and then Shepard blows up a Batarian relay in Arrival.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Saphra Deden wrote...

corporal doody wrote...

Cerberus was and STILL IS a part of the Alliance!! a black ops group that went rogue is a great cover!!

My suspicion is that this has been retconned away.

Actually I think I read a dialogue spoiler where something explicitly mentions a rumor that Cerberus started out as an Alliance black op and the guy he's talking to says something along the lines of "Black ops always go bad."

[ODST 5723]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

ODST 5723 wrote...

Keep on living in that fantasyland, Dean.

Reality is nice enough when you pay attention to what people say, not what you presume they say.

Yeah... about that

[TMA LIVE]

Considering TIM has lots of money, I always figured he just bought hundreds of Batarian slaves, and "recruited" them into Grayson soldiers.Then attacked colonies Collectors style, and recruited them.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 26 février 2012 - 02:04 .

[Dean_the_Young]

ODST 5723 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

ODST 5723 wrote...

Keep on living in that fantasyland, Dean.

Reality is nice enough when you pay attention to what people say, not what you presume they say.

Yeah... about that

I stand corrected, and admit my error. That is a lie of omission.