I just finished the Suicide Mission, spoke to the Illusive Man, then continued the game and went to speak to everyone (everyone survived, the whole crew and the party members). I listened to what they had to say about my decision, keeping the base. That's something new for me. it's the first ME2 game in which I keep the Collectors base for any specific Shepard game (out of my three existing games so far).
Before I start though I'd like to mention this. I always believed (ever since my first ME2 play through) that, ultimately, the Illusive Man invested in the Lazarus Project to use Shepard as a capable pawn (the only capable one for the Illusive Man's goals) to bring more power for Cerberus, and render humanity (ultimately) as a galactic-wide dominant species. He (the Illusive Man) is clearly obsessed about gaining power, and the Collectors base's technological secrets is probably the epitome of his desires. He looks very satisfied about that if you keep the base at the end, his facial expression, side smile, as in "everything goes as planned". His whole "for humanity's dominance" speeches kind of give it away though, no revelations there.
I remember many discussions around here and on other forums in which the consensus seemed that ultimately there's no viable or logical reasons (excluding ethics and morality) to destroy the base. That it wouldn't make sense to not use it against the Reapers. Well for that specifically there's a problem. The thing is that it was always clear that dealing against the Reapers was the "main goal", that in itself was never questioned from the start. The real questions concern what happens after the Reapers are dealt with, if the Collectors' technology is successfully reverse engineered (for example) at the benefit of Cerberus (and not exactly for the whole of humanity's greater good, at least not over night).
The fact that we have the choice to keep the base or destroy it to me acts as two clear questions, asked to us directly, the gamers. If we keep the base, basically we're being asked "do you want to risk Cerberus using whatever they find from it against other races after the Reapers threat to ensure humanity's dominance?". If we destroy it, we're being asked "Once the Reapers arrive, the Collectors base itself or whatever came from studying it could have been used against them, do you want to take the risk to not have this extra potential against the Reapers during the invasion?". That's how I see it. On one hand, you are being asked to think of the future beyond the Reapers threat, while on the other you're being asked to basically think of the direct consequences specifically for ME3's events and not necessarily beyond that.
With the above in mind I then went to speak to my party members. So if you keep the base here's what each of them tells Shepard. I just checked with the subtitles activated, and took notes, what I'm writing here is their exact word-by-word dialog (quoted parts). Also, following that I made my humble analysis of their comments...
NOTE: I have not played the ME3 demo, my "analysis" is nothing but my own opinions based on what I know and have experienced in ME2. I'm mostly spoilers-free as far as ME3 is concerned.
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º JACOB
« Glad we gave the Collectors what they deserved, Shepard. Can't say I like handing their assets over to the Illusive Man, but at least humanity is in the clear. For now, anyway. The Collectors aren't the end of it. Can't be. I don't know what kind of time we have, but we better dust off and stay ready. You sure as hell know how to make enemies. »
Analysis: Well that one had me scratching my head a bit. To start with, Jacob knows, or rather should know that the Collectors aren't "the end to it", obviously. The Collectors were working with and for the Reapers. The fact that Jacob seems to be in disbelief that the Collectors might have been the "end of it" for a moment leads me to think that somehow he never kept up with the latest developments during the mission (he might have been too busy toying with guns, who knows). One would think that Jacob at least sometimes speaks to others in the ship? Surely, someone must have told him "yeah but the Collectors work for the Reapers mate, lots beyond just the Collectors, 'ya know". No?
But, anyway, other than that, he tells me (Shepard) that I know how to make enemies. Well I don't exactly want to "make enemies". They just... are, or become as such. I don't quite get that part. I have been resurrected by Cerberus of all people, I didn't chose that, otherwise they would have been my enemies surely. Secondo, my path leads me to kill people who themselves want to kill other people. Or at worst, I have goals leading me on paths that inevitably cross others' and their interests. I need to make my teammates happy, loyal and fix their personal or family problems by killing Mechs or Mercs on my way. I don't exactly go around and throw ads on the streets of the major planets "Want to be Shepard's enemy? Shepard needs you! Sign up to become Shepard's enemy now and receive a free N7 T-Shirt after you kill him!". But, ok I seem to know how to "make enemies". Instead, I'd rather think that some people know how to ****** off Shepard is all.
At least he thinks that the Collectors dying was what they deserved, and that handing the base over to Cerberus isn't something he likes. That part is clear and useful enough.
º MORDIN
« Cerberus better than Collectors. Still wouldn't turn base over to them. Risky. More than risky. Dangerous. Hope you know what you're doing. »
Analysis: Clear and to the point (good ol' Mordin, love him). Yes it's very risky and dangerous. I believe that Cerberus does certainly intend to use whatever they find from the base against other races after the Reapers are dealt with. The Illusive Man wants humanity to dominate. The other races won't exactly just stand there smiling with arms opened whenever groups of extremists start blowing things up around in the name of humanity. The Illusive Man has power, information and a crap load of ambition... very dangerous concoction. I do fully expect that mixture to blow up in some people's faces at some point in ME3, including Shepard's. At least we know that Mordin dislikes the decision to keep the base.
º SAMARA
« I am not sure it was wise to hand that base over to the Illusive Man. Cerberus has a very... narrow view of the galaxy. Nonetheless, the choice was yours to make, and I respect that. »
Analysis: She seems undecided, kind of a neutral stance, she's not sure it was wise but she respects the decision. Hmmm, she probably just reacts to events as they occur, rather than thinking too much ahead and relying on speculations as to what could happen by keeping the base. Although she knows that the Illusive Man has a narrow view of the galaxy, and I agree. Indeed, it wasn't wise for some, but the Illusive Man surely thinks it was. The issue starts when someone with a narrow view on a couple of things get a bit too much power...
º KASUMI
( No dialog about Collector's base )
Analysis:
º THANE
« I'm disquieted, Shepard. I trust you, but not the one you work for. He is driven by wrath and fear. I fear that all we've done is make him a giant. »
Analysis: Me too, I don't trust the Illusive Man. Who knows, we stopped the Collectors in their own base, so whenever the Illusive Man makes it clear that he wants Cerberus to use the findings from it against other races for his own ambitions and "humanity's interests" then I'll most likely just go back in and blow it up that time around, as long as Joker still pilots the ship. I'm not sure if the Illusive Man actually "fears" something specific though. There could be one thing for sure if anything... the Illusive Man has power, he wants more (duh!), and the only thing that someone with power fears is to lose it...
º GRUNT
« The fight was great, Shepard. But giving Cerberus the base was... weak. This "Man" of theirs, he hides. He was smart to get you, but a real battlemaster charges with his clan. »
Analysis: He was smart to get me indeed. I do believed that he brought back Shepard from the dead as the ultimate capable pawn, even if the ultimate goal wasn't necessarily to have the Collectors base itself... it surely became such a goal as it became clear over time that it could be kept for study, at the very least, which could lead to have more power for Cerberus (and, perhaps... humanity and its dominance). Now, the thing is this "Man" as you say Grunt, he hides indeed, but he's no battlemaster, he can't exactly charge with his clan. I can't imagine the Illusive Man in flesh using a weapon charging at the Collectors with a cigarette by his lips... although it kinda looks cool when you think about it. Nah, the true battlemaster is Shepard, not the Illusive Man.
There's a contradiction though. I do remember reading on an older thread that if Grunt is present when the Illusive Man contacts Shepard to ask him/her to keep the Collectors base that he (Grunt) clearly mentions that if the enemy gives you its weapon, you use that weapon against them (I.E. that keeping the base is the right choice). But when speaking to him if we do keep the base then he tells Shepard that the move was weak? I don't get it. But anyway... at least Grunt liked the fight, better than nothing.
º MIRANDA
« Before we started this mission, I never would've questioned our goals... I just hope we made the right choice. I hope whatever Cerberus finds at that base is worth it. »
Analysis: Well, Miranda was present in my game when the Illusive Man contacted me. She basically said that it wouldn't be a good idea to keep the base (and said something along the lines of "treason"). I can't remember what she said word by word though, I'll probably have to check back. But I do know that she seemed to disagree, or at least that she was undecided and certainly didn't want to keep the base out of impulsive desires (I.E. the Illusive Man contacting Shepard at the last minute about it to try and convince Shepard to keep it at all costs).
It did seem that when the game began Miranda was the Illusive Man's right arm, and that she shared all his views and ideologies, even disliking Shepard even though agreeing to be under his/her command for the mission. But she changed her mind over time, she seems to "veer" towards a neutral stance if anything, or at best perhaps thinking that the Illusive Man's ambitions are getting too far by the point the Suicide Mission events occur, she might have been blinded by the Illusive Man's "humanity needs to dominate" speeches. Now she thinks a bit more by herself, and for herself, from the guts and the feelings.
º LEGION
« An interesting choice, Shepard-Commander. The Old Machines offered your race what the geth aspire to. Unity. Transcendence. Now you possess the knowledge yourselves. We hope you do not use it. Your species has much potential. You should build your own future. »
Analysis: Perhaps the most interesting one. So, Legion thinks (well, they think, the Geth anyway, for they are many), surely as a consensus that "you" should not use it ("it" being the power and/or knowledge from whatever can be found by keeping the base, obviously). But I'm not sure if Legion was referring to the whole of humanity, to Cerberus specifically, or to Shepard individually when he says "you". Although ultimately it means from the consensus that he (or "they) hope that whatever comes out of the base's findings won't be used at all, whether it is against the Reapers or anything else, he just says "hope you do not use it", rather than saying something more specific like "that you do not use it for another purpose" (another I.E. beyond the Reapers threat).
Also, "you should build your own future", I think is the best part. Basically, he seems to think that whatever comes out of that knowledge (of the base's findings) would probably play a part (at any extent) in shaping humanity's future. In making it (in part) an unnaturally-attained future. But if we turn our back at the potential from the findings of the base then whatever humanity's future becomes then at least nothing in it from that base will be found. Making humanity's future in such a case something that would have been achieved in a more natural evolution (without anything from the base). Although the small Prothean cache found on Mars already propelled humanity's technologies centuries "in advance" (remembering what Anderson says in ME1's first moments) and starting a whole chain reaction of new progress, even if it wasn't exactly made by humans themselves entirely.
Still, I find it interesting that Legion's consensus is clearly against the use of any gained knowledge from the base. I wonder if that will have any direct consequences in ME3... hmmm...
º GARRUS
« I hope Cerberus can figure out what to do with all that tech. I also hope they don't decide to do something worse than what the Collectors were planning. Watch yourself, Shepard. »
Analysis: Yeah basically my thoughts generally. Surely though, have no fear Garrus, Cerberus will figure out what to do with all that tech, giving more power to themselves is one thing. The question I think should be how will they use that power, and against whom, especially after the Reapers threat. I'm watching myself mate, I just hope that you'll be there when I need you!
º ZAEED
( No dialog about Collector's base )
Analysis:
º TALI
« I know you're working with Cerberus, but turning the base over to them was dangerous. I hope it doesn't come back to haunt us. »
Analysis: Working "with Cerberus"... yeah well, indirectly. But I know that you know, as you said I might be under cover or something, and whenever the need arises you'll loan me a grenade, appreciated Tali. Yeah handing the base over to them is dangerous, thinks like Mordin and the others. It seems quite evident for everyone so far. I fully expect that something from that decision will come back to haunt us though, unfortunately. Let's just make sure that you guys have your 50K-strong Migrant Fleet ready when the time comes!
º JACK
( No dialog about Collector's base )
Analysis:
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Conclusion?
Well... lol, pretty simple (and with reasons), all party members at the very least seem to dislike it if Shepard keeps the base. Oh well, so much for them supporting their cherished Commander huh? I can't wait for ME3, but clearly, I think that destroying the base is a sure move to ****** off the Illusive Man. I'm not quite sure that keeping it will necessarily benefit the fight against the Reapers in a direct way. I rather think that if anything in ME3 if the base was kept for Cerberus that whatever they found from it will be used at some point against Shepard instead, since we know by now that Shepard is pretty much back with the Alliance in ME3 and that Cerberus is just kinda pissed off at him/her. So, yeah... not really sure if whatever was found will be used against the Reapers while chasing Shepard around, that wouldn't make much sense, but we'll see, just a couple of days to go!
Modifié par Lyrandori, 25 février 2012 - 12:22 .
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