148 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexXIV]

Obviously the only way to not be defeated by the Reapers without deus ex or any critical weakness we can exploit to blow them up is to build up a military force that can match them. Which probably wouldn't be possible in the short time. I think even Cerberus' idea is pretty much a deus ex. Not going into detail because of spoilers.

That said, without deus ex we'd probably lose. Our best chance then would be to do it like the Protheans and maybe more successful. Run somewhere and hide until the Reapers are gone, build a new civilisation avoiding the mass effect relays and citadel so we don't warn them too early and when the Reapers start their next cycle we'd step up and help the new civilisations in their fight and warn them properly. I mean the Prothean warning was a bit weak considering how nobody even takes it serious aside from Shepard and the small group around him/her. They could at least have made a disk in which they explain everything, like a diary of sorts. But they only gave Shep one disk to delay Sovereign's access to the Citadel which then destroyed itself ...

[Medhia Nox]

I believe that the mistakes Bioware has made lie in how they have portrayed the Reapers.

In ME 1 - I didn't believe that Sovereign was "unstoppable" - just outrageously dangerous. So much so - that not even the best plan wouldn't have a tremendous cost.

In ME 2 - I thought Harbinger was a total tool bag - and his collector minions were about as threatening as the old villain gangs that used to hang around with Batman's rogues galleries...

Sovereign was a great example for a level of power - but certain missteps in representation took the Reapers from "extremely power extra-galactic entities" to "magical representations of unfathomable and unstoppable evil."

A large part of this I blame the player base for - and the BSN - which I believe has blown the Reapers wildly out of proportion. Just because a villain tells you they're all powerful - doesn't mean you're not a dolt for believing it.

However - whatever Admiral Hackett said in his moment of frustration during the battle for the Citadel is Evidence 0 for all this: "They're completely unbeatable." Evidently... Admiral Hackett knows all about the mysterious entity because his current weaponry can't get through its defenses. We're cooked... game over... thanks Admiral Hackett - you're a ****e Admiral for demoralizing your entire player base in one fell swoop of a comment.

When Alexander the Great strode into the Hindu Kush for the first time and fought the armies he met there... he was devastated by the war elephant. Evidently - you see - horses are terrified of elephants and the elephants massive size broke the ranks of Alexander's nearly perfect army as if it were nothing. ((I'm sure the fact that his army was miserable by the time these battles occurred didn't help - but bare with me.))

Did Alexander cry out for all his men - "These things are unbeatable - we are doomed!" No... he developed new tactics... harassed the elephants with arrows... moved his Phalanx out of their traditional formation... and allowed the elephants to charge and then gutted them with footmen.

Clearly... Admiral Hackett needs to re-evaluate his commentary.

Oddly - everyone loves him, but nobody listens to Legion. Perhaps not everyone gets the dialogue - unlike Hackett - or perhaps everyone is so hyper obsessed with uber-evils that they simply ignored it.

Legion tells you that the Reapers are not unstoppable - and that it's a silly aspect of organics to perceive "Old Machines" in this deified state. He calls the Protheans superstitious and doesn't think it is at all improbably to defend oneself from the Reapers.

Unfortunately - to tell this story in 3 chapters... they may resort to some form of quick fix, since a four hundred year war where the organics slowly turn the tide against the Reapers - and, at the end find their civilizations destroyed - is not within the scope of most video games and certainly wouldn't let Shepard prance about the ME universe all that time.

So we were merely constrained by the medium - all this raging solves nothing unless the sophistication of the audience changes - and it certainly has not.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 26 février 2012 - 07:55 .

[Jaron Oberyn]

You don't OP. You don't.

-Polite

[ninjaNumber1]

InsaneAzrael wrote...

I posted a similar idea as OP elsewhere.. Only, using Ilos as the charge and the relays (all co-ordinated from the citadel) as the prime. Then lure all Reapers to a Relay, open a channel to activate all relays, activate the conduit. Big-Badda-Boom.. Dead reapers.

What an anticlimatic ending. I seriously hope its not like that....

[Aimi]

Medhia Nox wrote...

When Alexander the Great strode into the Hindu Kush for the first time and fought the armies he met there... he was devastated by the war elephant. Evidently - you see - horses are terrified of elephants and the elephants massive size broke the ranks of Alexander's nearly perfect army as if it were nothing. ((I'm sure the fact that his army was miserable by the time these battles occurred didn't help - but bare with me.))

Did Alexander cry out for all his men - "These things are unbeatable - we are doomed!" No... he developed new tactics... harassed the elephants with arrows... moved his Phalanx out of their traditional formation... and allowed the elephants to charge and then gutted them with footmen.

Conveniently, Megas Alexandros was aided by large contingents of kambojas, Baktrians, and allied Gandharan rulers who had fought elephants, and knew what their weaknesses were. Any semblance of initial trepidation at the sight of the elephants - at least, on Alexandros' part - is clearly a dramatic invention of Arrianus.

You know, apart from the fact that elephant forces were objectively cost-inefficient military assets with dubious battlefield utility that really oughtn't have been fighting at all. 

The situation really isn't comparable at all.

[TexasToast712]

Explode the sun in the Sol system.

[111987]

lyleoffmyspace wrote...

Thread title says it all, how would you defeat the Reapers with a weapon or a plan that isn't a giant Deus Ex Machina or something?

My plan is as follows:  We know the Protheans can build one way Mass Relays from Ilos and the Conduit from the entire plot of Mass Effect 1, so with the Prothean squadmate or something we have some knowledge of Mass Relays. We know the galactic core is incredibly unstable from Mass Effect 2 (exploding stars and black holes). We know the Citadel is a control unit for all the other Relays, and probably the Reapers main target since they can shut down the Relays and divide and exterminate from the Citadel.

Therefore a logical "superweapon" to defeat the Reapers would have them all going to the Citadel to take control of the Mass Relay network. Somehow a Mass Relay could be reprogammed to send all of the Reapers into the Galactic Core where they are trapped or all blow up or something. I'm pretty sure they can't survive black holes and suns.

With the Reaper's IFF though, they can control exactly where the Mass Relay's send them, removing all but the slightest of drift. So most of them would likely survive, and just use the Omega 4 Relay's counterpart to return.

[111987]

UserForFun wrote...

Invest of all of the available resorces/funds within Normandy-class Frigates, and upgrade their weaponry/shields and stealth system past anything has yet before seen.

Strategy A - Divide and Conquer using guerrilla tactics.

The Reapers fleet obviously need to divide in order to attack systems simultaneously in order to prevent for one system to reinforce another, I'd use that to my advantage; At the end of the day, no Dreadnaught or Carrier have a chance to defeat a Reaper, in a toe-to-toe battle, instead I'll use this small army of frigates to launch guerrilla attacks upon divided Reapers.

We'd use maneuverability, evasive-maneuvers, and pin-point attacks with deadly-accuracy, no matter how resilient their shields are, constant concentrated fire on only one portion of the shields will eventually penetrate.

In order to reach this range, we'll use the upgraded stealth systems mentioned above to gain as much proximity as we're able to get, obviously the Reapers would eventually make a visual-contact, but by the time they'd see us, we'd already had the surprise + opened fire.

The Reapers only have one main-gun, incredible powerful, but it can be easily avoided, as long as the ship's size is limited to a frigate, we'll literally dance around the Reaper, always striking from the blind spot, due to cover of stealth.

I'll also deploy fighters for additional damage, since the Reapers do not seem to have any other vessels at their disposal to counter-attack small figthening vessels.

I don't think shields work the way you describe. You just have to hammer away at them, from any spot, until you deplete their energy, and then the entire shield goes away. I don't think you can just aim at one spot.

Also, the Reapers do have more than one gun. Their main gun is powerful enough to destroy a dreadnaught in a single hit, but their 'tenatcle' guns, which are basically huge Thanix Cannons, can target the smaller ships. Most Reapers have six of those that can fire simaltaneously while landed. You also have to account for their Occuli ships engaging your fighters.

However I agree with the strategy; smaller ships armed with Thanix Cannons are probably your best bet in a straight up fight.

UserForFun wrote...
Strategy B strategy -- Infiltration.

As the strategy above unravels, some Reapers, may be simple too tough for our weapons ( We all know that Reapers vary in size/strenght ) and we cannot keep the stealth systems/constant maneuverability going indefinitely.

If a Reaper seems too large, I'd alter the pattern of the strategy from above, instead of approaching the Reapers I'd exit stealth a few miles away and begin firying -- Naturally, the Reaper would be focused on the front-cover of assaulting frigates, while secretly, another Stealth frigate would deploy fighters from behind.

Kinetic Barriers are capable to withstand fast moving objects and energy, not small vessels, we'll equip these small fighters with nukes and dock them on the Reapers, or inside them ( We know that the Reapers are capable to be docked by ground forces, such as Husks, Salen, etc.. ) and detonate the nuke on the surface or inside. Obviously if we manage to get one inside, the damage would be devastating, possible one-shot.

Even if is damage from the surface ( Cause we may assume that they close their hanger-doors, unlike the Collectors ) it is past the kinetic-barriers -- It may not one-shot a Reaper, but it would inflict significant damage.

Also, these small fighters would be controlled wireless by EDI, or another AI/VI.

The Collectors have shown the capability of detecting the Normandy despite it being a stealth frigate. The Occuli as well. I don't think you could sneak up that close to a Reaper where you could land on it.

[ubermensch007]

How would you defeat the Reapers without a Deus Ex Machina?

Well, I don't even think that BioWare is going to use a MacGuffin or Deus Ex Machina.

If you think about it.We know that Reaper kinetic barriers are impervious to dreanought class kinetic weapons.But as powerful as those are.What is it; like equvialent to 120 kilitons of TNT exploding.In order to destroy Reaper starships.The Allied Citadel Defense Unit will have to upgrade their kw to megaton level force.Nucelar physicist have already demonstrated that there is no upper limit to how great a yield you can get from an hydrogen bomb.I believe it was the Soviets who detonated a 50 Megaton Hydrogen Bomb in the early sixties or late fifties.
I highley doubt that a Reapers mass effect field could withstand the equivalent force of 100 Megatons of TNT going off right in their face.

The difficult thing is finding a proper material to work with and deployment system.Because you wouldn't want to put planets and colonies in a state of nucelar winter.Using conventional Hydrogen Bombs.

Modifié par ubermensch007, 26 février 2012 - 08:45 .

[Dantexr3]

With Sandal's enchantments and booms

[CyanidPontifex]

You know, it shouldn't be too hard to turn objects capable of shooting ships across the galaxy into really big guns.

[Aimi]

CyanidPontifex wrote...

You know, it shouldn't be too hard to turn objects capable of shooting ships across the galaxy into really big guns.

It kinda is. For anybody but the Reapers, mass relays have fairly inexact transit protocols. You can't really "aim" very well. Case in point: Joker, at the beginning of ME1, states that a drift of just 1,500 klicks is equivalent to "hitting a target the size of a pinhead". Needless to say, drift of 1,500 klicks, an arguably best-case scenario, isn't good enough to hit a Reaper.

[IamSithari]

sorry i had look that phrase up, anyway no the reapers see themselves as this deus ex machina. and as legion said organic life would seemingly become a form of reapers themselves.

[IamSithari]

you know i just dont get the concept of the reapers their flying robot spaceship bus that walk talk and think that live for ever and why the hell are we even going to save earth if over a million reapers are sounding off that indoctronation thing they do so wouldnt the earths defenders stop fighting and surrender.

[Random citizen]

As I stated before. The only way for the reapers to be defeated without the help of a similar force is to make them much weaker then what was initially suggested. Remember, the Lovecraftian-class horrors can not be defeated by any mortal.

[Dean_the_Young]

I'd have had four routes to victory, but also have them require different story routes in order to be successful: if you don't successfully focus on one, you get the Bad End route.

About the only thing that needs to be established is that non-Dreadnaught Reapers could be taken down by Dreadnaughts or masses of fires. Dreadnaught Reapers could be nearly invincible, but the lesser ones are 'just' overpowered.

Also, oddly enough, I wouldn't destroy all the Reapers. If most/enough of the Reapers were destroyed so that they can't conquer the galaxy, but the rest can do Bad Things from the shadows, then you'd have plenty of fodder for future MMOs/stories.

Out of the four routes...

1) The Bad End: Destroying the Sol Relay

Staging a Decisive Battle in the Sol System, the Reapers are tricked into gathering the majority of their forces in one area so that they can wipe out the main organic strength once and for all. It's a trick, though, because it's a trap. Using Advanced Technology gathered from allies and past cycles throughout the game (recruiting species for their tech efforts), the Organics have devised a anti-Reaper virus that will temporarily shut down the Reapers FTL drives. Once the Reapers are gathered and the Virus unleashed, the Sol Relay is destroyed, wiping out the critical mass of the Reapers, especially their dreadnaughts. Though a number of Reapers survive, they are too few to finish the Reaping and are forced to retreat.

This is the Bad End, because Earth is destroyed. This is also the only ending that's open to everyone no matter what. The destruction of the relay could be prior intent by Shepard (a reluctant acceptance of necessity), or a surprise pulled by the allies (the Council races sicking the dog on the bear). The Reapers are crippled as a force, unable to wipe out the galaxy, but Humanity is 99.9% extinct.


2) The Decisive Battle with MacGuffins and Allies

Finding not only Prothean projects, but also the last-gasps of other past cycles, Shepard and the Shadow Broker network focus on finding the past Klendagon Canons of the past cycles, weapons that, if found and rebuilt, collectively could win the battle with the Reapers. These super-assets and mass armies of allies are what empower your army to win a decisive battle against the Reapers, without blowing up the relay.

This is the more 'Paragon' route of cooperation to overcome an unstoppable force. With the Reaper dreadnaught force destroyed, the Reaper force is broken and retreats to the dark space between solar systems. Earth, while damaged in the fighting, is not destroyed, and Humanity survives as a diminished but equal power. Success in this route, however, requires a heavy Paragon slant in getting the maximum number of allies, no matter who and what they are. Cherry-picking fewer, nicer, allies leads to failure.


3) The Cerberus Hail Mary

Shepard supports the Illusive Man's gambit for victory, whatever it may be... such as a super-Overlord VI to control any Reaper that comes too close. Requiring a lot of the same technologies that the Paragon MacGuffin route needs, the Cerberus path puts a great deal of power and technology in Cerberus's hands and hoping for the best. If Cerberus gets enough tech MacGuffins, they can succeed at controlling the Reaper Dreadnaughts in vicinity of Earth... but the battle plan requires Shepard to stab a number of other species and allies in the back. Earth is effectively 'best' saved, and Cerberus/Humanity controls the Reaper Dreadnaughts to fight against the 'lesser' Reapers who were too far away to be influenced and are now in hiding. Cerberus, of course, has a strong hand in re-shaping the surviving galaxy.



4) The Negotiation

Shepard finds out just what the Reapers want and why they're doing it, and threatens to ruin their plans for all time if they don't stop, a sort of 'we'll destroy everything you value as we go down.'

This works most easily if the Reapers are sort of a galactic-management system. Though invalidated by the leaks, one early theory for the Reapers motivations was that the galactic civilizations that use e-zero were building up dark energy that would destroy the galaxy by making the stars all die. The Reapers in this sense 'pruned' the galaxy in order to allow it's continued development: species rose, worthy ones were preserved as Reapers, and the rest were killed to allow future species to develop.

In this scenario, the Negotiation would be threatening to destroy the galaxy if the Reapers don't stop their genocide. Shepard's missions focus on exploring the 'why' of the Reapers, and then building a Mega E-zero MacGuffin with the help of every species that, if used, would destroy all the stars in the galaxy immediately, thus defeating the Reaper's goals of preserving future life. With this suicide-strategy, and a lot of persuasion, Shepard can talk down the Reapers and force them to stop the Reaping. All the Reapers fall back, for now, and the rest of the organic galaxy enters an uneasy peace of not only fearing the Reapers, but knowing that they have to switch out of mass effect tech lest they destroy the galaxy anyway.

[Aimi]

Volus!Dean doesn't exactly have the same oomph as Old Mustachioed!Dean. :/

[Dean_the_Young]

Fine, fine, I'll change it...

...if you tell me what you think of the scenarios.

[TonyTitan]

Employ the Loqutus strategy demonstrated when the Enterprise first encountered the Borg...

Hack Harbinger and put the rest of them to sleep!

[Medhia Nox]

@daqs - you know, you should either being doing something so much more than typing on a gaming thread - or you've got stock in wikipedia.

Even baring his assault into the Hindu Kush - there is the bridge over the rivers that kept Tyre safe - his assault against one of the cities in India (which I can't recall and won't look up) - where he threw himself over the walls to shame his people. The historians I've read - while accepting it might be embellished - don't refute that he did just that.

If one Macedonian can do the "insurmountable" - even if it is embellished - then certainly hundreds of billions of beings - from dozens of species - could defeat even a hundred thousand Reapers. ((Especially since we've been shown that Shepard and a crew of plucky do gooders has already defeated one - and outsmarted another while defeating his goons))

Let me simplify it so it cannot be so easily picked apart.

Your leader shouldn't be so imbecilic as to declare defeat simply because he cannot win against an initial barrage against an unknown foe.

Hackett not only deceived his fictional military - but also the entire fan base.

The ONLY other creatures that assert that the Reapers are unbeatable - are the Reapers themselves.

Anyway - it's hardly worth debating on the BSN.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Do any of the people using the term Deus Ex machina in this thread even know what it means? Protip; if it's talked about as soon as the beginning of the game, it's not a Deus Ex machina, it's a MacGuffin, a plot device. Deus Ex machina would mean that a Protean fleet emerges out of nowhere and annilate the Reapers as Shepard and co. loses. I am fairly certain nothing like that will happen.

[Taleroth]

Am I allowed to change previous games? If so, several ways with minor changes.

Robosaren wouldn't have happened. Saren's death simply would have bought the time needed to finish off Sovereign with the fleet. Sovereign would have been salvaged, reverse engineered, and new armaments obtained. Which happened already, more or less.Now everyone is more powerful, it's just a matter of freeing up the fleets and unifying them.

Mass Effect 2 brought us the fact that Reapers are a collective intelligence of the harvested races.
Surely not all Reapers agree with the plan 100%. Just need to take Harbinger or whoever their leader is down a peg. Then you have allies who can help.

Mass Effect 2 also brought us a collective intelligence in Legion. An AI controlled starship armed with Reaper derived guns. And some knowledge of Reaper construction, with or without the intact base. What's this mean? The ability to build pseudo-Reapers. Slap a collective intelligence on a starship and give it big guns. Give enough time to build several of these and we're back to adequate fleet combat. A Geth alliance would have helped here, since they're aiming to do that on their own. Just need to marshal the forces. 

Modifié par Taleroth, 27 février 2012 - 05:03 .

[Ziggeh]

daqs wrote...

IT IS A BAD PLOT DEVICE

No it's not, it's just misused (and I suppose easy to misuse).

There are plenty of solid stories that end with them, heck, it's pretty much standard practice for Doctor Who, and it can be used to pull some seriously spectacular endings.

[Aimi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Fine, fine, I'll change it...

...if you tell me what you think of the scenarios.

Wow. Uh, okay.

I like the idea of the Sol Relay destruction option being open to everyone. I've already nibbled around the issue earlier in the thread, but I think that such a course of action would actually work successfully against the Reapers. I don't even think you'll need to shut down the Reapers' FTL drives to do it.

I also like the radically divergent choices for Renegades and Paragons - or, rather, Grand Alliance types and Cerberus supporters. There isn't really much more to say about them; the Paragon route is effectively in the game anyway, and the Cerberus one might be...but I'm not sure about the 'Negotiation' route. It doesn't resolve much of anything at all, and this MacGuffin seems kinda ridiculous.

Medhia Nox wrote...

@daqs - you know, you should either being doing something so much more than typing on a gaming thread - or you've got stock in wikipedia.

I'm a grad student in history. Not a classicist, but I was always very interested in the classics. And I just got back from class. So, after a fashion, I am doing something much more than typing on a gaming thread. 

Medhia Nox wrote...

Even baring his assault into the Hindu Kush - there is the bridge over the rivers that kept Tyre safe - his assault against one of the cities in India (which I can't recall and won't look up) - where he threw himself over the walls to shame his people. The historians I've read - while accepting it might be embellished - don't refute that he did just that.

If one Macedonian can do the "insurmountable" - even if it is embellished - then certainly hundreds of billions of beings - from dozens of species - could defeat even a hundred thousand Reapers. ((Especially since we've been shown that Shepard and a crew of plucky do gooders has already defeated one - and outsmarted another while defeating his goons))

I agree that Alexandros and his army did things that were extremely difficult for any military of the time to pull off, and that sometimes they were much bolder than they might have been, and therefore much more successful. And I agree that Hackett's statement that the Reapers were unbeatable was certainly premature, if it's deconstructed literally.

But I don't agree that this stuff can be generalized. Instead of comparing Alexandros and his Makedonian army, I would say that the forces of the galaxy are more akin to the Aztec Triple Alliance fighting against Cortés and his conquistadores. And even then...the Nahua peoples of Anahuac lacked gunfire and steel, had been ravaged by disease, and were riven with political disagreements, and still had a better shot than we probably do against the Reapers. Sure, we can hurt the Reapers with our conventional military, but unless we can amass overwhelming fire superiority against individual segments of a fragmented Reaper flotilla, we're not going to score a decisive victory in a set piece space-naval engagement. The only way that works is a) if the Reapers are stupid and divide their fleet a lot and if we have the luxury of time to set all these traps for individual Reapers or small Reaper flotillas. Because of the situation on Earth (not to mention Thessia and Palaven), we lack .

So while Hackett's statement that the Reapers are effectively unbeatable by conventional means may have been somewhat defeatist, it was also, to all intents and purposes, accurate. Sometimes the people who say, "this is impossible!" are wrong, but that doesn't mean that they're always wrong. The man was being realistic: while it is theoretically possible, with well-coordinated attacks on small Reaper units and a decent helping of Reaper incompetence, to defeat the Reapers by conventional means with the extant fleets, in a practical sense, this would not be possible to accomplish before the destruction of the galaxy's population centers and industrial heartlands.