The idiocy I'm referring to is in the Mage origin. Specifically, if you tell him about Jowan's plans. You tell him that he plans to destroy his phylactery and escape being made tranquil. Then, he tells you to go along with the plan so they can catch him. Including the destroying the phylactery part. Making it much harder to hunt him down if he somehow DOES escape, which considering how they think he's a blood mage, is very possible. Not exactly the best decision.
Is the First Enchanter an idiot?
Débuté par
Serogon
, nov. 25 2009 05:30
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#2
Posté 25 novembre 2009 - 05:33
KalosCast
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They don't think he's a blood mage... hence why everyone was surprised, blood magic isn't any better at running away than any other magic, and Irving's judgment was impaired by his hatred of the Chantry and desire to make one of their own people suffer.
#3
Posté 25 novembre 2009 - 05:34
Serogon
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KalosCast wrote...
They don't think he's a blood mage... hence why everyone was surprised, blood magic isn't any better at running away than any other magic, and Irving's judgment was impaired by his hatred of the Chantry and desire to make one of their own people suffer.
They do think he's a blood mage, that's why they wanted to make him tranquil in the first place. Did you talk to him and ask why they're going to make him tranquil? And about the escaping, if he's using blood magic he's going to be stronger than if he wasn't, so he'd have more chance.
Modifié par Serogon, 25 novembre 2009 - 05:34 .
#4
Posté 25 novembre 2009 - 05:35
Medivan
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They wanted to make him tranquil because they believed he wasn't going to be able to complete the Harrowing. In the eyes of the Chantry/Templars that makes him Apostate/Blood Mage.
#5
Posté 25 novembre 2009 - 05:39
KalosCast
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Serogon wrote...
KalosCast wrote...
They don't think he's a blood mage... hence why everyone was surprised, blood magic isn't any better at running away than any other magic, and Irving's judgment was impaired by his hatred of the Chantry and desire to make one of their own people suffer.
They do think he's a blood mage, that's why they wanted to make him tranquil in the first place. Did you talk to him and ask why they're going to make him tranquil? And about the escaping, if he's using blood magic he's going to be stronger than if he wasn't, so he'd have more chance.
They were making him Tranquil because they didn't believe that he was in control of his magic enough to pass his Harrowing. They don't make you tranquil for being a blood mage, they make you dead.
#6
Posté 25 novembre 2009 - 05:40
Serogon
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KalosCast wrote...
Serogon wrote...
KalosCast wrote...
They don't think he's a blood mage... hence why everyone was surprised, blood magic isn't any better at running away than any other magic, and Irving's judgment was impaired by his hatred of the Chantry and desire to make one of their own people suffer.
They do think he's a blood mage, that's why they wanted to make him tranquil in the first place. Did you talk to him and ask why they're going to make him tranquil? And about the escaping, if he's using blood magic he's going to be stronger than if he wasn't, so he'd have more chance.
They were making him Tranquil because they didn't believe that he was in control of his magic enough to pass his Harrowing. They don't make you tranquil for being a blood mage, they make you dead.
I could have sworn he said that it was due to rumors of blood magic that were flying around due to the time he was off spending with Lily... oh well, I guess I was remembering wrong.
#7
Posté 25 novembre 2009 - 05:42
Original182
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The First Enchanter wants to catch Jowan and his gf in the act in front of Gregoir (sp). Strike many birds with one arrow. It's not idiocy, it's a gamble, which didn't hit jackpot.
As for Jowan being a blood mage, Gregoir had eye witness that he was a blood mage. Your mage character, the First Enchanter and basically the entire Mage Circle think it is just politics or more excuse to oppress mages more. In the end, the Templars were right, and the mages were wrong.
As for Jowan being a blood mage, Gregoir had eye witness that he was a blood mage. Your mage character, the First Enchanter and basically the entire Mage Circle think it is just politics or more excuse to oppress mages more. In the end, the Templars were right, and the mages were wrong.
#8
Posté 25 novembre 2009 - 05:46
KalosCast
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Serogon wrote...
I could have sworn he said that it was due to rumors of blood magic that were flying around due to the time he was off spending with Lily... oh well, I guess I was remembering wrong.
He might have mentioned it, but given other sidequests, I feel like there are probably a ton of mages who died after someone "totally saw them make a blood magic." Not to mention I might have missed it, having already known that twist going in.
#9
Posté 25 novembre 2009 - 05:48
Endurium
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Jowan wouldn't have escaped if not for one of the game's many contrived cutscenes, which often portray unlikely events just to move the plot forward.
Jowan, an apprentice mind you, managed to best two powerful men and their templar entourage, all because of a cutscene.
My character, who easily stormed the Tower of Ishal and lit the flame, was struck down by a single arrow from behind (impossible) thanks to a cutscene.
All characters carry a hidden dagger under their skin (pull it out even with no clothes on) just for cutscenes.
My staff-wielding mage killed the archdemon with a two-handed sword at the end, courtesy of a cutscene.
Cutscenes can be quite entertaining, but they can also boggle the mind with their contrived scenes.
At any rate, Irving knew about Lily and suspected that was the reason for Jowan's sneaking around. The Templars had no idea about her so they suspected blood magic. Turns out both were right. Irving isn't infallible, and we even find a document later in the game titled Irving's Mistake. By the end of the game he's ready for retirement.
Jowan, an apprentice mind you, managed to best two powerful men and their templar entourage, all because of a cutscene.
My character, who easily stormed the Tower of Ishal and lit the flame, was struck down by a single arrow from behind (impossible) thanks to a cutscene.
All characters carry a hidden dagger under their skin (pull it out even with no clothes on) just for cutscenes.
My staff-wielding mage killed the archdemon with a two-handed sword at the end, courtesy of a cutscene.
Cutscenes can be quite entertaining, but they can also boggle the mind with their contrived scenes.
At any rate, Irving knew about Lily and suspected that was the reason for Jowan's sneaking around. The Templars had no idea about her so they suspected blood magic. Turns out both were right. Irving isn't infallible, and we even find a document later in the game titled Irving's Mistake. By the end of the game he's ready for retirement.
Modifié par Endurium, 25 novembre 2009 - 05:50 .
#10
Posté 25 novembre 2009 - 06:27
Rugaru
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In dialog Irving says that Jowan was going to be made tranquil because he was a suspected Blood Mage. Personally I think he was secretly wanting Jowan to actually escape because he hates the chantry as much as I do 
Going with that idea it makes more sense that he didn't shield or attempt to stop Jowan when he started the blood magic.
and Endurium the arrow in the back scene I don't think was much of a stretch, you are supposedly racing up the tower to light the flame, who is to say that the darkspawn aren't racing up right behind you only to get there after you kill the Ogre and light the flame....
Going with that idea it makes more sense that he didn't shield or attempt to stop Jowan when he started the blood magic.and Endurium the arrow in the back scene I don't think was much of a stretch, you are supposedly racing up the tower to light the flame, who is to say that the darkspawn aren't racing up right behind you only to get there after you kill the Ogre and light the flame....
#11
Posté 25 novembre 2009 - 08:17
Shady314
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Does no one actually read dialogue?
Everyone does think Jowan is a blood mage. Irving says Gregoir claims to have eyewitnesses. This IS why he is going to be made tranquil. They think he's been looking into blood magic but not that he is full fledged so they are going to Tranquilize him. If they had thought him stronger then they would have killed him immediately. You can even ask Jowan if he's a blood mage. He'll deny it and claim they just think that because of all his sneaking around with Lily.
Irving wants you to go through with it because he is NOT stupid and wants Lily to be punished for her crimes as well as Jowan. Gregoir thinks Lily is innocent so Irving is going to let him see with his own eyes. Otherwise Jowan will be punished for looking into blood magic and Lily if she is even suspected of wrongdoing will be cleared under the belief Jowan must have used mind control on her. This is why Gregoir says how surprised he is that Lily is there and her mind seems to be her own.
He gets away because he catches them completely by surprise. And because Blood Wound is such an amazing spell even Jowan is kickass when he uses it. If you don't believe me try using the spell.
There are two real plot holes that have been brought up before. Jowan could not possibly open that door. The only way to explain it is that the door is currently open for some reason. Perhaps because Duncan is about to leave that day?
It seems like there should be plenty of time to place some sort of decoy phylactery to have you break instead of the real one. I don't really have an explanation for this one. Maybe Irving is just really lazy? Maybe there isn't as much time as it seems. Maybe Jowan would be able to sense if the magical link was not really broken?
Everyone does think Jowan is a blood mage. Irving says Gregoir claims to have eyewitnesses. This IS why he is going to be made tranquil. They think he's been looking into blood magic but not that he is full fledged so they are going to Tranquilize him. If they had thought him stronger then they would have killed him immediately. You can even ask Jowan if he's a blood mage. He'll deny it and claim they just think that because of all his sneaking around with Lily.
Irving wants you to go through with it because he is NOT stupid and wants Lily to be punished for her crimes as well as Jowan. Gregoir thinks Lily is innocent so Irving is going to let him see with his own eyes. Otherwise Jowan will be punished for looking into blood magic and Lily if she is even suspected of wrongdoing will be cleared under the belief Jowan must have used mind control on her. This is why Gregoir says how surprised he is that Lily is there and her mind seems to be her own.
He gets away because he catches them completely by surprise. And because Blood Wound is such an amazing spell even Jowan is kickass when he uses it. If you don't believe me try using the spell.
There are two real plot holes that have been brought up before. Jowan could not possibly open that door. The only way to explain it is that the door is currently open for some reason. Perhaps because Duncan is about to leave that day?
It seems like there should be plenty of time to place some sort of decoy phylactery to have you break instead of the real one. I don't really have an explanation for this one. Maybe Irving is just really lazy? Maybe there isn't as much time as it seems. Maybe Jowan would be able to sense if the magical link was not really broken?
#12
Posté 25 novembre 2009 - 08:24
Rugaru
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As to the decoy phylactery-he is a blood mage and I would think that would at the least give him some kind of sense for the blood itself. Also, considering they use the blood to hunt a mage there must be some kind of way for any mage to have some sense for blood.(templars ARE mages and use magic even if the chantry denies it)
And the door...why wouldn't he be able to open it? Mind control the guards and get them to do it if he couldn't just blow it off its hinges....
And the door...why wouldn't he be able to open it? Mind control the guards and get them to do it if he couldn't just blow it off its hinges....
Modifié par Couldar, 25 novembre 2009 - 08:25 .
#13
Posté 25 novembre 2009 - 08:26
Original182
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Looks like Couldar gave pausible reasons. Potential Jowan plothole averted.
#14
Posté 25 novembre 2009 - 08:30
Shady314
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Yes the phylactery part doesn't bother me too much.Couldar wrote...
As to the decoy phylactery-he is a blood mage and I would think that would at the least give him some kind of sense for the blood itself. Also, considering they use the blood to hunt a mage there must be some kind of way for any mage to have some sense for blood.(templars ARE mages and use magic even if the chantry denies it)
And the door...why wouldn't he be able to open it? Mind control the guards and get them to do it if he couldn't just blow it off its hinges....
It takes like 4 men to open. And one would think since it's whole point is to make it hard to escape, that simply blasting it would not work. Otherwise why make the door be so huge and strong? It takes 4 templars to open or one mage with a fireball? I like to think it was simply open because Duncan was soon to leave and it is SO hard to open that they had to open it early.
Modifié par Shady314, 25 novembre 2009 - 08:31 .
#15
Posté 25 novembre 2009 - 08:31
Taerda
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Shady - If Jowan is a practicing blood mage, wouldn't he be able to sense if the blood was his or another's I don't know everything about Blood magic, but just as a Warden can sense darkspawn blood - a blood mage should have an affinity for their own blood.
As far as plot holes - the biggest one I saw was that the Templars and Circle Mages would have been tailing behind the conspirators and then swooped down on them once they broke into the storage room and broke the phylactery. I do not think they would have allowed Jowan to get as close to freedom by waiting outside without another phylactery.
PS: I hate that word. Phylactery - sounds like a proceedure ordered by a doctor.
As far as plot holes - the biggest one I saw was that the Templars and Circle Mages would have been tailing behind the conspirators and then swooped down on them once they broke into the storage room and broke the phylactery. I do not think they would have allowed Jowan to get as close to freedom by waiting outside without another phylactery.
PS: I hate that word. Phylactery - sounds like a proceedure ordered by a doctor.
#16
Posté 25 novembre 2009 - 08:36
Ellzedd
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He was suspected of being a blood mage however, if you ask him about why they wanted to make him tranquil he will confess to being suspected of being a blood mage.
Now it may not have been Irving that suspected him of it but there's no way he wasn't aware. If Greagore knew, so did Irving. If Irving simply didn't believe Greagore then that does, to an extent, make him a little stupid. Especially as Irving's entire response is "A blood mage, omg who would have thought?"
Now it may not have been Irving that suspected him of it but there's no way he wasn't aware. If Greagore knew, so did Irving. If Irving simply didn't believe Greagore then that does, to an extent, make him a little stupid. Especially as Irving's entire response is "A blood mage, omg who would have thought?"
#17
Posté 25 novembre 2009 - 08:40
MachDelta
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Why would Irving care about Jowen's phylactery? It's going to be destroyed anyways once they make him a tranquil. Instead, he can use it as bait to catch Jowen and Lily in the act: the former giving him a reasonable excuse of his own (and not some Templar's orders) to turn Jowen tranquil, and the latter scoring points against Gregoir and the Chantry. It's win-win for Irving, except in the case that Jowen flips out and wtfpwns the whole room with blood wound... which is what happens. 
#18
Posté 25 novembre 2009 - 08:52
Rugaru
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Or if you still think it would be difficult to get out the front door...just do what you did to get into the phylactery room in the first place, hole in the wall is as good as a door.
To paraphrase from the monkey king- If you are going to make a door that is impossible to break down, then you better make sure the walls are also.
To paraphrase from the monkey king- If you are going to make a door that is impossible to break down, then you better make sure the walls are also.
#19
Posté 25 novembre 2009 - 09:26
Shady314
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Which brings us right back to the question of why would they have a big massive door if it didn't do anything?Couldar wrote...
Or if you still think it would be difficult to get out the front door...just do what you did to get into the phylactery room in the first place, hole in the wall is as good as a door.
To paraphrase from the monkey king- If you are going to make a door that is impossible to break down, then you better make sure the walls are also.
The wall you break down to get to the phylactery:
1) Is weakened greatly. Irving let's you know this as does the description of the wall.
2) Still takes a rod of fire +
3) A Tevinter artifact to amplify it's power.
4) Sealing the bottom floor is pretty epically stupid of Gregoir and the Templars during the Broken Circle quest if even an apprentice mage can just blow a hole in the wall no problem.
Let's just explain it by saying the door was open for Duncan's departure.
#20
Posté 25 novembre 2009 - 09:34
Tankenminnet
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Couldn't he just have blood controlled them, maybe? Or asked kindly? lol
#21
Posté 25 novembre 2009 - 09:39
Rugaru
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Yes I suggested mind control as a possible that seems to have been ignored also...
#22
Posté 25 novembre 2009 - 09:43
Taerda
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Couldar wrote...
Yes I suggested mind control as a possible that seems to have been ignored also...
Is mind control a spell talent, or an inate ability gained once you cross that threshold of becoming a Blood mage?
If the latter, then the lesser blood mages you confront in the broken mage circle would have controled the party easily (before you had the artifact from the Sloth encounter).
So the counter to mind control is that Jowan was too low a level to have reached that talent.
#23
Posté 25 novembre 2009 - 10:00
Rugaru
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But you really don't know anything about Jowan and his blood mage skills, from a game mechanics lvl perspective he had to be at least lvl 7 to have blood magic, yes? He lies to you about being a blood mage in the first place and then manages to take out a whole room in one shot so to me anyway it would seem that he is a very strong blood mage he just keeps it hidden. (at least that is the only thing that would make sense to me right now as far as the story part of it)
#24
Posté 25 novembre 2009 - 11:16
th3warr1or
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Couldar wrote...
But you really don't know anything about Jowan and his blood mage skills, from a game mechanics lvl perspective he had to be at least lvl 7 to have blood magic, yes? He lies to you about being a blood mage in the first place and then manages to take out a whole room in one shot so to me anyway it would seem that he is a very strong blood mage he just keeps it hidden. (at least that is the only thing that would make sense to me right now as far as the story part of it)
I'm going with this explanation. Jowan is NOT an apprentice. He's probably a goddamn skilled blood mage. He probably pretended about being unable to blast the Phylactery door open too..
#25
Posté 25 novembre 2009 - 11:16
th3warr1or
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Couldar wrote...
But you really don't know anything about Jowan and his blood mage skills, from a game mechanics lvl perspective he had to be at least lvl 7 to have blood magic, yes? He lies to you about being a blood mage in the first place and then manages to take out a whole room in one shot so to me anyway it would seem that he is a very strong blood mage he just keeps it hidden. (at least that is the only thing that would make sense to me right now as far as the story part of it)
I'm going with this explanation. Jowan is NOT an apprentice. He's probably a goddamn skilled blood mage. He probably pretended about being unable to blast the Phylactery door open too..
