73 réponses à ce sujet

[Huttj509]

I loved the end of Arrival. "I don't need to read your report to know you did the right thing, but when Earth calls, be there with your dress blues to take the heat for it."

[DarthLaxian]

well - i got myself a nice "arrival"-package - but i still feel that being forced to take the fall for doing the right thing is the wrong way (from the alliances perspective more then from sheppards, as i agree that he/she would gladly be the fall guy if it helps the alliance, because the alliance would discourage people from doing the right thing thus indirectly condoning morally questionable behaviour like looking away when the reapers come (in this case) but also something like, say the batarians grabbed an alliance border patrol-ship and had it on a planet while stripping it and it's computers of codes and classified material and someone had the courage to act (meaning: blow up the ship - going over the border of course, which would be against regs) and do the right thing...such people should get promotions/commendations out of it, not a slap in the face and dismissal from service plus prison time!)

so, will play arrival then (at least tomorrow - got stuff to learn today - got a test (important test...i want my driving license, even more so as i could have had it for years but didn't apply for it because it was not needed and i had no car anyway))

greetings LAX

Modifié par DarthLaxian, 27 février 2012 - 06:45 .

[ACRAZEDMONKEY]

Draconis6666 wrote...

Doing "whats necessary" doesnt automaticaly excuse throwing an asteroid into a mass relay and basically causing a supernova that not just destroyed the Batarian Colony but destroyed the entire system and everything in it. You get at least temporarily relieved of duty in the real world for doing things much less monumental even if they were for the right reasons overall.

Secondly as far as relieving a Specter, well they cant, your still a Specter, but the council's support of that rank is questionable. Its even stated in ME 2 that its basically just a political move on their part. So your authority as a specter is in question, and your rank as a specter doesnt mean they cant relieve you from duty as an alliance officer, technically they already did when you died so you were relieved from duty for all of ME 2.

[kotli]

DarthLaxian wrote...
snip
as for "he should have this or that" - yes he should, at least where a video-system is concerned (they are currently testing such systems as far as i know - a few hundred years later they should be state of the art!) so no, i am not making stuff up - i am just pointing out things that lack ANY logic....same for vigil, you can't tell me that having now power deleted that VI....

Well footage can be faked (see movies), remember here that any camra used will also be Cerbus based or a gernal off the self version, reducing the face value of said footage.

Justerfied or not in his/her actions, why he/she kiled a lot of innocents and blew up a whole star system and a relay.
No matter what there needs to be an investigation into the event, and therefore Shepard has to be suspended, and also grounded so he/she cant run away and hide in a corner of the galaxy. If the investigation find his/her actions are unjustified then criminal proceeding will take place, most likely with Shepard ethier being handed over to the Batarians, or dumped in some human prison.

Modifié par kotli, 27 février 2012 - 08:46 .

[Aldyramon]

So,

the Normandy is Shepards Ship, more or less a private owned vessel and Shepard is a Spectre, he operated above the law.
Killing 300k Batarians may not be the most ethical thing to do, but the Alliance does not have any right to judge Shepard or take away his Ship.
As a Spectre he is well within his rights to kill 300k Batarians if he deems it necessary. Sure the Batarians will be mad and the Alliance might not want to be associated to that, but can do nothing against it.
Hell the could probably not even capture Shepard, if he does not surrender himself.

I really don't like the fact, that the game forces this decision on you, because even my most paragon Shepard would not have sit around for half a year and do nothing to prepare against the Reapers, even if it would have pissed off the Alliance.

[LibertarianSteel]

OP.

You have to understand that the Mass Effect universe doesn't revolve around Shepard...

There has never been proof of a Reaper, except for the attack on the Citadel... There was no proof of a Reaper in Mass Effect 2 except for Collectors attacking colonies...

Don't you understand their stance? Sure, you may be extremely reputable and very charismatic.... But you need proof if you want the WHOLE galaxy to fight against the 'Reapers', who to the Citadel Council may or may not even be real... Except for the demo...

And by the way, he destroyed a colony with 300,000 civilians. It makes the Alliance look bad when one of their 'former own' is destroying colonies and entire systems...

Think about it OP..

[G3rman]

Well nice to know some people let emotions get in their way of being mature and responsible people.

[LibertarianSteel]

Aldyramon wrote...

So,

the Normandy is Shepards Ship, more or less a private owned vessel and Shepard is a Spectre, he operated above the law.
Killing 300k Batarians may not be the most ethical thing to do, but the Alliance does not have any right to judge Shepard or take away his Ship.
As a Spectre he is well within his rights to kill 300k Batarians if he deems it necessary. Sure the Batarians will be mad and the Alliance might not want to be associated to that, but can do nothing against it.
Hell the could probably not even capture Shepard, if he does not surrender himself.

I really don't like the fact, that the game forces this decision on you, because even my most paragon Shepard would not have sit around for half a year and do nothing to prepare against the Reapers, even if it would have pissed off the Alliance.

Incorrect...

The Spectres operate to protect the galaxy, and get rid of harmful people/criminals/organizations etc...

Killing 300,000 innocent Batarians isn't right... Especially since there has never been proof of the Reapers... And he claimed it was to stop the Reapers.

[LibertarianSteel]

Huttj509 wrote...

I loved the end of Arrival. "I don't need to read your report to know you did the right thing, but when Earth calls, be there with your dress blues to take the heat for it."

I've always liked Admiral Hackett, a true 'Humanist' or 'Patriot' and is a military man at heart.

[Aldyramon]

Sure, it is not right, but Spectres operate above the Law, they are literally allowed to do anything to protect the galaxy. And anything includes killing 300k Batarians.
They are pretty clear about that in ME1, killing innocents as collateral damage is well accepted, just look at Saren or Tela Vasir.
Since you did that while being a Spectre, they can nothing do against it. This may not be the politicly best way to deal with the situation, but in the long run it would be better if Shepard actually did something useful instead of sitting in the brig on earth.

[Allworkandlowpay]

Shepard killed 304,000 people outside of a war zone in an unauthorized military operation for a threat the galaxy believes is fabricated. If it wasn't for Hatchett pulling the strings, he/she would've have been grounded and relieved of duty, but instead likely imprisoned or executed.

[LibertarianSteel]

Aldyramon wrote...

Sure, it is not right, but Spectres operate above the Law, they are literally allowed to do anything to protect the galaxy. And anything includes killing 300k Batarians.
They are pretty clear about that in ME1, killing innocents as collateral damage is well accepted, just look at Saren or Tela Vasir.
Since you did that while being a Spectre, they can nothing do against it. This may not be the politicly best way to deal with the situation, but in the long run it would be better if Shepard actually did something useful instead of sitting in the brig on earth.

Ok.

As said, he killed 300,000 civilians for *NO Reason*

Why do I say no reason? Because to the Council, there is NO PROOF that the Reapers are returning except Shepards word.

[scotkrow]

I'd just like to say. One, OP you better play arrival, it's some of the best DLC I've played for any game ever, even if it is kinda short. Two, the story of Mass Effect following Shepard can't happen without everyon being against Shepard, and Shepard loses BAMF points if he/she doesn't have to struggle against the entire galaxy to succeed. Three, OP... have you thought that maybe a 50,000 year old VI doesn't work like a modern hard drive or CD. Maybe once it's power is completely used up of cut off it's just gone (possible, don't believe this but also don't rule it out personally). Also the SR2 is military grade ship, would the military let a civilian, which Shepard is after being brought back, keep a military grade star ship? No way in Satan's scrotum. Last Point, Shepard being a specter and a human are two separate things, the council can't do anything but revoke specter status and make someone wanted if they feel they went too far, but as a human the Alliance can still hold Shepard responsible for things the council wouldn't.

[Aldyramon]

and? You are allowed to do anything, without consequences. You don't need to account for your actions, especially not to Alliance Military.

[scotkrow]

You're not getting it. Saren attacked a human colony and didn't even destroy the whole thing, and he had his specter status revoked and you are sent to bring him to justice, now Shepard blows up an entire solar system... The council doesn't believe reapers exist, and the alliance only has a few hardcore soldiers and officers believing Shepard, and it's mostly cause they know Shepard personally. I'm surprised that Shepard didn't have his head put on a platter by the council and delivered to the Batarians. Shepard destroyed an entire planet with 300,000 people on it, Saren killed a couple hundred, maybe thousand in a quick strike and the council said, "Human, you're a specter go hunt him down and get revenge for your people." And Shepard is still a citizen of the alliance, they have as much authority over him/her as any other alliance citizen.

[Poison_Berrie]

DarthLaxian wrote...

well - i got myself a nice "arrival"-package - but i still feel that being forced to take the fall for doing the right thing is the wrong way (from the alliances perspective more then from sheppards, as i agree that he/she would gladly be the fall guy if it helps the alliance, because the alliance would discourage people from doing the right thing thus indirectly condoning morally questionable behaviour like looking away when the reapers come (in this case) but also something like, say the batarians grabbed an alliance border patrol-ship and had it on a planet while stripping it and it's computers of codes and classified material and someone had the courage to act (meaning: blow up the ship - going over the border of course, which would be against regs) and do the right thing...such people should get promotions/commendations out of it, not a slap in the face and dismissal from service plus prison time!)

Because those actions still carry consequences beyond the immediate.
That destruction might have leveled half a city and as a result of both the disregard of their border and the atrocity there is now war with the Batarians.
Do you really think their so happy with that war, they are going to promote that guy? 

Aldyramon wrote...

Since you did that while being a Spectre, they can nothing do against it. This may not be the politicly best way to deal with the situation, but in the long run it would be better if Shepard actually did something useful instead of sitting in the brig on earth.

Except that being a Spectre only works as long as it's not public knowledge. I doubt it would look really good for the council to condone THE DESTRUCTION OF AN ENTIRE STAR SYSTEM!
Especially since they don't publically acknowledge the Reapers and they either do (causing mass panick) or they condone those kind of measures against Batarians and the like.

Do you people really not see that. Shepard destroyed an entire star system, via kinect kill on a Mass Relay. 
He has broken the unwriten "Thou shall not destroy Mass Relays" and commited one of the biggest atrocities someone in the universe can commit. 
Do you really think that something like that warrants no investigation, that such a thing is best ignored?

[scotkrow]

Agreed Poison_Berrie, agreed.

[Aldyramon]

scotkrow wrote...

You're not getting it. Saren attacked a human colony and didn't even destroy the whole thing, and he had his specter status revoked and you are sent to bring him to justice, now Shepard blows up an entire solar system... The council doesn't believe reapers exist, and the alliance only has a few hardcore soldiers and officers believing Shepard, and it's mostly cause they know Shepard personally. I'm surprised that Shepard didn't have his head put on a platter by the council and delivered to the Batarians. Shepard destroyed an entire planet with 300,000 people on it, Saren killed a couple hundred, maybe thousand in a quick strike and the council said, "Human, you're a specter go hunt him down and get revenge for your people." And Shepard is still a citizen of the alliance, they have as much authority over him/her as any other alliance citizen.

No, Saren was revoked his Spector Status for betraying the Councel. It is allready acknowledged that the councel don't cares if thousands die, as long as the job is done.

Spepard destroyed a Star System outside of Councel Space, full of people who are not even councel citizen. He did so in the line of duty with support (regardless how slim it was) of the councel, they deliberatly renewed your Spectre Status and by doing so approved your actions.

Poison_Berrie wrote...
I doubt it would look really good for the council to condone THE DESTRUCTION OF AN ENTIRE STAR SYSTEM!

Of couse not, but they gave you the authority to do it, they cannot do anything other than revoke your Spectre Status to prevent you from going on a killing spree again. But legally Shepard did nothing wrong, he had every right to destroy a Star System to protect the galaxy, because that is his job.

Poison_Berrie wrote...
He has broken the unwriten "Thou shall not destroy Mass Relays" and
commited one of the biggest atrocities someone in the universe can
commit.

There were no such rule, mostly because nobody tought a mass Relay could even be destroyed.

Poison_Berrie wrote...
Do you really think that something like that warrants no investigation, that such a thing is best ignored?

No, it should not be ignored, but:

after ME2 the Situation is pretty much as followed: 
Heckett wants you go stand trail for what you did. You can ignore him or go to earth:

a.) You ignore him: The Alliance will never catch you, mostly because you have the most advanced Ship in the galaxy with Stealth no less. So ignore the Trail, prepare for the Reapers...

b.) You go to Earth and stand trial, you can pretty much give them the finger and say: "I am a Spectre and therefor not subject to Alliance Law.", take your Ship leave. Or if you want to play nice, you could at least give a statement. Nevertheless the Alliance has no right to hold you, because Councel Law tumphs Alliance Law, and Councel Law say: Spectres can do whatever they want. As long as you are a Spectre, you are attending the Trail as a courtasy to Heckett and if anything as a wittness, not as defendant.

Heck the Councel even approved your actions by doing nothing. Your keep you Spectre Status after you killed 300k Batarians, which only means, that you have done nothing wrong.

I just don't like that the game pretty much forces me into a choice, I did not choose and that pretty much ignores the Lore. Most Renegade Shepards would probably just ignore the trail and try to prepare for the reapers. And even a total Paragon would probably not waste time by sitting arround in the brig, if he realises that the trail is going nowhere.

Modifié par Aldyramon, 27 février 2012 - 11:54 .

[scotkrow]

view below

Modifié par scotkrow, 27 février 2012 - 11:49 .

[scotkrow]

Aldyramon wrote...

scotkrow wrote...

See post above

No, Saren was revoked his Spector Status for betraying the Councel. It is allready aknogledged that the councel don't cares if thousands die, as long as the job is done.

Spepard destroyed a Star System outside of Councel Space, full of people who are not even councel citizen. He did so in the line of duty with support (regardless how slim it was) of the councel, they deliberatly renewed your Spectre Status and by doing so approved your actions.

Poison_Berrie wrote...
Except that being a Spectre only works as long as it's not public knowledge

thats not true, in ME1 and ME2 everybody knew that Shepard is a Spectre right away, hell you even go arround and tell everybody "I am an Spectre..." Your Status as a Spectre is no secret and was never ment to be a secret, several times people actually know that you are a Sectre out of the news or some public records.

Poison_Berrie wrote...
I doubt it would look really good for the council to condone THE DESTRUCTION OF AN ENTIRE STAR SYSTEM!

Of couse not, but they gave you the authority to do it, they cannot do anything other than revoke your Spectre Status to prevent you from going on a killing spree again. But legally Shepard did nothing wrong, he had every right to destroy a Star System to protect the galaxy, because that is his job.

Poison_Berrie  wrote...
He has broken the unwriten "Thou shall not destroy Mass Relays" and
commited one of the biggest atrocities someone in the universe can
commit.

There were no such rule, mostly because nobody tought a mass Relay could even be destroyed.

Poison_Berrie  wrote...
Do you really think that something like that warrants no investigation, that such a thing is best ignored?

No, it should not be ignored, but:

after ME2 the Situation is pretty much as followed: 
Heckett wants you go stand trail for what you did. You can ignore him or go to earth:

a.) You ignore him: The Alliance will never catch you, mostly because you have the most advanced Ship in the galaxy with Stealth no less. So ignore the Trail, prepare for the Reapers...

b.) You go to Earth and stand trial, you can pretty much give them the finger and say: "I am a Spectre and therefor not subject to Alliance Law.", take your Ship leave. Or if you want to play nice, you could at least give a statement. Nevertheless the Alliance has no right to hold you, because Councel Law tumphs Alliance Law, and Councel Law say: Spectres can do whatever they want. As long as you are a Spectre, you are attending the Trail as a courtasy to Heckett and if anything as a wittness, not as defendant.

Heck the Councel even approved your actions by doing nothing. Your keep you Spectre Status, which only means, that you done nothing wrong.

I just don't like that the game pretty much forces me into a choice, I did not choose and that pretty much ignores the Lore. Most Renegade Shepards would probably just ignore the trail and try to prepare for the reapers. And even a total Paragon would probably not waste time by sitting arround in the brig, if he realises that the trail is going nowhere.

I love how you set that up so it looked like I siad all those things, when I only said the first one.  So I'll just respond to that, and let others take the credit for the things you are saying I said and argue their points if they please. 

Saren betrayed the council by wanton destruction of a human colony, for not reason, and it doesn't matter if Shepard was out of council space, the council can not support, what looks like, wanton destruction of an entire colony. 

Here I will bring up one thing I didn't say that you're saying I did, the Public knowledge part, it doesn't refer to being a specter, it refers to actions as a specter.

Modifié par scotkrow, 28 février 2012 - 12:21 .

[Aldyramon]

Sorry for the wrong quotes, I fixed that.

scotkrow wrote...
The council can not support, what looks like, wanton destruction of an entire colony.

Sure, they better would do something, but they don't. As seen in the Demo Shepard is still a Spectre, so they did not even bother to revoke your Spectre Status.

scotkrow wrote...
Here I will bring up one thing I didn't say that you're saying I did, the Public knowledge part, it doesn't refer to being a specter, it refers to actions as a specter.

I misread that, but it is not that important for my point.

The only way you would end up with the Situation at the beginning of ME3 is, that the Councel would revoke your Spectre Status right away, stating publicly, that your are obviously a insane Human Extremist and address the Alliance to deal with their mess. After your Spectre Status is revoked you could end up in the brig, but it would pretty much messed up the rest of the game.

But getting grounded and trailed, while you still are a Spectre makes no sense, because being a Spectre gives you immunity for everything you do, even blowing up Star Systems...

[scotkrow]

What are you smoking, in the Demo Anderson says, "You used to be a specter, that's got to count for something." They wont support it, even if it's part of a mission they have given, example, Saren's mission where he framed Anderson to stop him from becoming a specter.

Your argument is broken illogical, and to top it off, if this stuff doesn't happen, the story doesn't have the same weight, it's a totally different story with totally different outcomes and not nearly as much urgency. It would ruin the pacing and excitement.

[scotkrow]

computer issue double post

Modifié par scotkrow, 28 février 2012 - 12:19 .